101 réponses à ce sujet

[MaxQuartiroli]

In my own and very personal opinion, I am not very happy that such a choice is determined in an indirect way by some simple assumptions that the game makes depending on how we play. I won't list here all the variables that affect that choice (and in which ways) because they have been already discussed in this topic, where some players did really a great job in highlighting them.

So the reason because I opened this topic is not to discuss them again but to know if you like how they managed the choice of the divine in DA:I. Like I said I don't like that the game assumes that if I play conservative/revolutionary is just because I am a  conservative/revolutionary person and I will have c/r views about every subject. Every person can have conservative views about some matters and at the same time be very revolutionary when it comes to other things.

So, I chose to conscript the mages because I think that they can be easily possessed and to protect them, I let the wardens in because I think they were tricked and they deserved a second chance, I chose to support Celene because, well.. I didn't read the DA books therefore I did what my most precious advisor and lover, Josie, suggested me to do. While I agree that they are all choices that keep the status quo, all of them was not made because I fear changes or for the sake to keep the things the way they are, but just because in that moment I was thinking it was the better choice for that specific situation.

Why does the game assume that if I do that I am fine with maintaining the status quo also for the chantry and, even worse, that I want to support a manipulative ***** for the role of new divine? This was just an example for people like me who dislikes Vivienne, but I could do a different example for people who ended with an hardened and crazy Leliana as the new divine just because they made some specific decisions.

I can see what the writers tried to do here: they wanted to make the player feel the consequence of his actions and tell him: "Hey, be aware that when you are an authority and you lead one of the most powerful organizations in the world the consequence of your actions may often go beyond your will, and once that the ball is rolling you won't be able to change its direction anymore." This could also be interesting under a narration point, but I think that it didn't suit this game very well. At the opposite it's really frustrating to not have direct control over a question like that, which have a huge impact over the whole world, the life of many people and the future history. Unless you metagame of course. And this become even worse in the moment that they gave us the option to vocally support a specific divine just to let you see your choice neglected.

Perhaps this could work well if the 3 candidates were not people from your inner circle, someone that you managed to know well, and that you could like or dislike as a person. If the new divine could be selected between 3 NPC that you could know, but not in such an intimate way, someone like Mother Giselle and 2 other persons this could have really been an amazing feature. Instead the whole divine thing had the result to make me feel disconnected from my own game and story.

Therefore my (totally personal) sentence is "Nice try bioware but that didn't work well for me."

What are your thoughts and how do you deal with this aspect of the game?

[Abyss108]

I liked it. It was a direct consequence of my actions. I was very vocal about not supporting Leiliana, and yet I still sent her on every mission in the game. It really shouldn't have been a surprise for me when it turned out she had the power and connections to become Divine at the end no matter what I said. Why would she care if I said no?

 

I hate the way Bioware games usually let me make every major decision for other people and organisations, even when they have no reason to listen to me. This was a nice surprise!

[CenturyCrow]

Works for me. While the Inquisitor gains a lot of power/responsibility in the course of the game, she/he isn't dictator of the world. Especially under some circumstances like being an elf or Qunari Inquisitor or one that doesn't believe/skeptical of all things Chantry or fights being the chosen. What might have been a good twist would be an unknown or little known Divine is chosen.

 

I do agree with you in that some of what you do doesn't always work to your best advantage. Like you, (and having played the Warden in DA:O) I thought the Grey Wardens were still essential in the event of another Blight as well as a good resource. While I didn't agree with the Chantry/Circle, it seemed a good solution to all of the chaos. Unless there had been choices where the Inquisitor could become a despot and took control of the whole process and just appointed a Divine or self-appointed as a Divine.

 

From the looks of it, a Divine was going to be selected regardless of what the Inquisitor's action, but no way to tell how that would affect anything or how that would affect the Inquisitor storyline in the future, if at all.

[Dai Grepher]

I think the system of determining Divine was lame. Also, Giselle should have been an option.

 

But in the end, doesn't this all really come down to who you pick in the Dragon Age Keep?

[MaxQuartiroli]

I liked it. It was a direct consequence of my actions. I was very vocal about not supporting Leiliana, and yet I still sent her on every mission in the game. It really shouldn't have been a surprise for me when it turned out she had the power and connections to become Divine at the end no matter what I said. Why would she care if I said no?

 

I hate the way Bioware games usually let me make every major decision for other people and organisations, even when they have no reason to listen to me. This was a nice surprise!

 

First of all thanks for the feedback.

 

Just a quick question. Don't you feel that as the Inquisitor you could have the options to do more or at least have more power to prevent/support this?

 

I would totally agree if the whole divine choice was left underground for the entire game, and then  at the end  BAM!! "Surprise! For what you did while you were sitting on the throne this is the consequence!". But from the moment they showed us which were the candidates I just felt that as the inquisitor I would do everything that I could do, using my power, connections, everything in order to conditioning that choice.

 

And while I also agree that if I free the mages, exile the wardens and put Gaspard on the throne it would be really pointless to support Vivienne at that point, at least let me have a prominent role among the other two candidates. Instead, they just leave me the option to express a simple opinion when you talk with them and a lousy war table missions (which is often useless). Not so much for the great inquisitor don't you agree?

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

First of all thanks for the feedback.

 

Just a quick question. Don't you feel that as the Inquisitor you could have the options to do more or at least have more power to prevent/support this?

You don't have the power to send your many minions to gather enough elfroot for a Skyhold upgrade. So you seriously question what you are, well, questioning?

[daveliam]

I loved how they implemented this.  It gets a little old to constantly have a "choose one of these and affect the world" option in front of you.  This was actually a really well done and realistic approach to it.  Yes, you can influence who gets picked, but it goes beyond just saying, "I want Cassandra!" and, lo and behold, the world responds accordingly.  If you set up conservative political situations, it stands to reason that a more conservative Divine will be elected.  If you set up liberal political situations, it stands to reason that a more liberal Divine will be elected.  You can throw your weight as the Inquisitor behind a candidate and it is likely that she will get elected, but not a guarantee.  I wish there were more situations like this in the series. 

[AppalachianApex]

Hate it, hate it, hate it.

 

Choosing the next Divine would have made perfect end-game material. The threat has passed and the Inquisition is more influential than ever before. You as the Inquisitor should have had a much more direct involvement in electing a new divine. It should have been it's own quest-line at the very least.

It seemed like a no-brainer that the Divine story line would play out after the main story concluded. But nope, all you do is say "Yeah, I guess maybe candidate X would be pretty cool." And that's it. That's the way to 'choose' the new Divine. 

[Abyss108]

First of all thanks for the feedback.

 

Just a quick question. Don't you feel that as the Inquisitor you could have the options to do more or at least have more power to prevent/support this?

 

I would totally agree if the whole divine choice was left underground for the entire game, and then  at the end  BAM!! "Surprise! For what you did while you were sitting on the throne this is the consequence!". But from the moment they showed us which were the candidates I just felt that as the inquisitor I would do everything that I could do, using my power, connections, everything in order to conditioning that choice.

 

And while I also agree that if I free the mages, exile the wardens and put Gaspard on the throne it would be really pointless to support Vivienne at that point, at least let me have a prominent role among the other two candidates. Instead, they just leave me the option to express a simple opinion when you talk with them and a lousy war table missions (which is often useless). Not so much for the great inquisitor don't you agree?

 

Well the Chantry doesn't even like the Inquisition so I don't see any reason for them to listen to you!

 

It could have been nice if the game gave you some underhanded methods to try and get your choice picked! The companions could point out that this is immoral (if they care about that!) , and you have to make a choice whether to take extra action or not. That could be cool.

 

But with the current way the game is, you don't actually do anything other than point out your own personal choice, so I actually like the fact a bunch a random strangers don't just take your word!

[MaxQuartiroli]

You don't have the power to send your many minions to gather enough elfroot for a Skyhold upgrade. So you seriously question what you are, well, questioning?

 

I am not questioning. I am just curious to know what the other players think about this aspect of the game, if they liked how they managed it, if it worked for their story, if they liked to see it in a future game and how it could be, eventually, improved.

 

My personal thought on this subject then, are, well, just personal and I added them just to introduce properly the subject.

[daveliam]

One other thing that I like about it is the 'surprise' nature of it.  For my canon playthrough, I went out of my way to ensure that I got the Divine that I wanted (Cassandra).  But otherwise, I just roll the dice and see what happens.  So far, I've gotten one of each and I think that's kind of cool. 

[FadelessRipley]

I loved how they implemented this.  It gets a little old to constantly have a "choose one of these and affect the world" option in front of you.  This was actually a really well done and realistic approach to it.  Yes, you can influence who gets picked, but it goes beyond just saying, "I want Cassandra!" and, lo and behold, the world responds accordingly.  If you set up conservative political situations, it stands to reason that a more conservative Divine will be elected.  If you set up liberal political situations, it stands to reason that a more liberal Divine will be elected.  You can throw your weight as the Inquisitor behind a candidate and it is likely that she will get elected, but not a guarantee.  I wish there were more situations like this in the series. 

I wasn't thrilled to get Leliana as Divine first time around, even as softened. Purely because I actually wanted her to finally reunite with the Warden. I agreed with Justinia's wishes that she lay down her burdens and finally live for herself. I avoided spoilers so I wasn't aware of the way choices stacked in favour of one or the other - and I don't know bloody Viv was even an option!  But I agree with Dave - that kind of thing is awesome in games. It's not as though the choice is truly "forced" on you - looking back over my choices, it made sense. It's a consequence of your actions, like them or not. It was an interesting change. 

 

I say this until I end up with Viv as Divine. Then it'll be THE WORST THING EVER OMG BIOWARE YOU SUCK!!! 

[daveliam]

 

I say this until I end up with Viv as Divine. Then it'll be THE WORST THING EVER OMG BIOWARE YOU SUCK!!! 

 

Poor Vivienne is going to get Rickets from all of the shade being thrown at her!  Poor dear!

[Dai Grepher]

But the system is not so random or surprising as you might think. Making the choice on the Chore Table gives 10 points to your candidate, and that is basically enough to secure the position of that candidate even if the other story options are against them. There are a few exceptions to this, but that's basically the gist of it.

[Dai Grepher]

Also, I personally believe Vivienne is the clear choice for Divine (out of the available candidates).

[9TailsFox]

I think it was done good. Finally our "choice" mater. Why main character must be Maker, just point finger and stuff happens.

It's funny how.

 

BSN: Our choices don't mater

Bioware: OK

BSN: Our choices mater not how we wanted.

Bioware: 

[9TailsFox]

Also, I personally believe Vivienne is the clear choice for Divine (out of the available candidates).

For me Vivienne is option for divine make as much sense as Sera is Andraste. But I didn't care who become divine so, whatever.

[happy_daiz]

Honestly, I haven't gone out of my way to influence things one way or another. I probably should, but eh, Chantry. Cassandra always gets the big ugly hat in my playthroughs.

 

I do think it's strange that your choices would have ANY bearing whatsoever on who the Chantry would choose for a new Divine. I mean, think about it. How would allying with the Mages make Cassandra look any different? Leliana? Vivienne? It doesn't really make any logical sense why YOUR actions would influence Chantry peeps who are doing the choosing. If they're that interested in what the Inquisitor is doing, maybe the Inquisitor should be the Divine.

 

Same thing with the whole Calpernia/Samson thing. I get why they made the general be different for each side (so they're different?), but yet... I don't.

 

Obviously Coryphymutts knows both of them. Why would he choose one over the other? Why not choose both? Why did there need to be X or Y? Why not X and Y? The mutual exclusivity seems unnecessary here. I dunno, just musing.

[MaxQuartiroli]

I loved how they implemented this.  It gets a little old to constantly have a "choose one of these and affect the world" option in front of you.  This was actually a really well done and realistic approach to it.  Yes, you can influence who gets picked, but it goes beyond just saying, "I want Cassandra!" and, lo and behold, the world responds accordingly.  If you set up conservative political situations, it stands to reason that a more conservative Divine will be elected.  If you set up liberal political situations, it stands to reason that a more liberal Divine will be elected.  You can throw your weight as the Inquisitor behind a candidate and it is likely that she will get elected, but not a guarantee.  I wish there were more situations like this in the series. 

 

 

Well the Chantry doesn't even like the Inquisition so I don't see any reason for them to listen to you!

 

It could have been nice if the game gave you some underhanded methods to try and get your choice picked! The companions could point out that this is immoral (if they care about that!) , and you have to make a choice whether to take extra action or not. That could be cool.

 

But with the current way the game is, you don't actually do anything other than point out your own personal choice, so I actually like the fact a bunch a random strangers don't just take your word!

 

I think we almost agree on some things. I also think that it is right that

 

the sum of your action > the sum of your vocal support,

 

and I agree when you say that it was time that they chose a more mature way to set some decisions, because the option "I chose candidate X and so be it" is getting really old, and perhaps a bit unrealistic, especially if it's in open contradiction with your behaviors.

 

Still, I think it needs to be improved. The major problem in my case (let alone for a moment metagaming, subsequent playtroughs and so on) is that for the most part of the game you are totally unaware that you are setting the ground for a matter that towards the end just drops in your hand. And when this happens the result is nearly set and then the game leaves you with the only option to face it or, at worst, with the option to voice your (ininfluent) opinion. Like Abyss108 says this could work really better if they could foreshadow a bit more the "critical" moment of the game and the choices that are important for this subjcet. I am not saying they should tell you "Option to support X" but at least they could give you some small hint.

 

To be honest I think it would be enough that during one of your first dialogue with Giselle, when you talk about the new divine and she answers you that it will take time before finding a new one it would pop an option to talk about Cassandra/Leliana/Vivienne, obviously as a remote option. And even if we are at the beginning of the game we are talking about the First Enchanter, the Left Hand and the Right Hand, therefore a foreshadowing dialogue about a "remote possibility" to see one of them, one day to become divine, would not be so illogical. Then it could make more sense that you shape the divine choice with your subsequent actions.

[daveliam]

I do think it's strange that your choices would have ANY bearing whatsoever on who the Chantry would choose for a new Divine. I mean, think about it. How would allying with the Mages make Cassandra look any different? Leliana? Vivienne? It doesn't really make any logical sense why YOUR actions would influence Chantry peeps who are doing the choosing. If they're that interested in what the Inquisitor is doing, maybe the Inquisitor should be the Divine.

 

I think it makes sense.  The Inquisition is a major political faction at the end of DA: I.  The Chantry would be influenced by the political stances that the Inquisition takes.  I'm not saying that that would fall in lock-step to what the Inquisitor is doing, but, certainly, if the Inquisition is reform oriented, it would influence them to be more reform oriented as well.  Plus, the Inquisitor, like it or not, is a powerful person in Thedas.  If s/he put their influence behind one particular candidate, I can see that having some level of influence on the decision.  And, ultimately, that's why I like it.  It doesn't flat out determine the Divine, but it influences who gets it.

[daveliam]

I think we almost agree on some things. I also think that it is right that

 

the sum of your action > the sum of your vocal support,

 

and I agree when you say that it was time that they chose a more mature way to set some decisions, because the option "I chose candidate X and so be it" is getting really old, and perhaps a bit unrealistic, especially if it's in open contradiction with your behaviors.

 

Still, I think it needs to be improved. The major problem in my case (let alone for a moment metagaming, subsequent playtroughs and so on) is that for the most part of the game you are totally unaware that you are setting the ground for a matter that towards the end just drops in your hand. And when this happens the result is nearly set and then the game leaves you with the only option to face it or, at worst, with the option to voice your (ininfluent) opinion. Like Abyss108 says this could work really better if they could foreshadow a bit more the "critical" moment of the game and the choices that are important for this subjcet. I am not saying they should tell you "Option to support X" but at least they could give you some small hint.

 

To be honest I think it would be enough that during one of your first dialogue with Giselle, when you talk about the new divine and she answers you that it will take time before finding a new one it would pop an option to talk about Cassandra/Leliana/Vivienne, obviously as a remote option. And even if we are at the beginning of the game we are talking about the First Enchanter, the Left Hand and the Right Hand, therefore a foreshadowing dialogue about a "remote possibility" to see one of them, one day to become divine, would not be so illogical. Then it could make more sense that you shape the divine choice with your subsequent actions.

 

This makes sense to a degree.  With regard to your first point about metagaming, I have the same issue with the suicide mission in ME2.  I can't imagine ever having someone die in this mission  now because I know how to prevent it.  So, for a person to die, I've had to actively choose to make that happen, which seems awful from a metagame perspective.  That's always the downside to things like this.  It's great the first time or two that you do it, but then, as you learn what you need to do, it lose it's impact.

The foreshadowing would be fine.  I tend to like it a little more subtle than that, so I don't have a problem with how it played out.  But I can understand why people would want it differently.

[Wulfram]

I like the intent, but I'm not keen on it in practice.  If I play a character other than a straightforward mage supporter, the outcome feels essentially arbitrary to me.  And it'd seem even more so if I was going on the incredibly sparse information in the game itself.

 

It would have worked better if there were more choices that actually seemed like they should be relevant to the election.  But really only the first (Mage/Templar) choice does, and that choice doesn't necessarily give a good read because there are complicating factors.

[MaxQuartiroli]

But the system is not so random or surprising as you might think. Making the choice on the Chore Table gives 10 points to your candidate, and that is basically enough to secure the position of that candidate even if the other story options are against them. There are a few exceptions to this, but that's basically the gist of it.

 

When I ended with Vivienne as divine I did the war table mission to support Cassandra, told her that she would be a good divine, and told both Leliana and Viv that they would not fit for that role. All for nothing. Therefore I suppose that the war table mission affects the result only if you have two candidates which have more or less the same amount of points. But there are also some course of actions that lock you with a specific candidate and you cannot reverse it no matter what you do, a thing that, like I said, could also be right, but only if the system was less vague.

 

Moreover there is also the doubt that it could be bugged: someone said that both the Adamant choices favour Leliana in the same way (but this is really another matter so let's not talk about it)

[Winged Silver]

I liked it based on the idea that it was one of the few things where your PC didn't have total control. Certain elements can definitely sway the outcome, but the end result falls upon the group of Chantry people making that decision. Which is how it should be, I think, particularly since my Lavellan was very anti chantry (like why would they even listen to her? )

 

It also just feels more realistic to me. There's no reason why my Inquisitor should have the final say regarding a decision like this. So I was alright with it. I wouldn't mind more opportunities to discuss it with in game characters and whatnot, but overall I liked not having full control over something that didn't really matter to my character anyway.

[Forsythia77]

I've completed the game five times and made subtly different choices in all five play throughs and Vivenne has been Divine 3 times.  Cass once and Leliana once.  I don't mind Viv as Divine in theory but end game in practice  (even if you are besties with her) she is just so ruthless about it. And that bugs me as personally I'm pro-mage freedom.

 

I do have a question - I've only had a war table mission come up once to support someone for Divine (and it was for Vivienne).  What conditions have to be met for the war table missions to come up for Cass or Leliana?  I'd really like to make this play through my cannon one and I am trying to get softened Leliana as my divine. I've already picked free mages so that done.  Have yet to do Adamant or the Winter Palace, but both are on my table and can be done.