Out of Origins I'd say the least interesting is Oghren. But then I don't find drunk comedy all that funny.
I can't say out of dragon age II. I haven't played it enough, yet. I'm waiting for the end of my deluxe playthrough of origins.
As for Inquisition, leave the final twist out of it, and Solas is surely the least interesting.
I see. You did not quote me; therefore I did not get a message for this. Well, the first part is Dorethea shifting blame, everyone has a weakness, and not everyone preys on other peoples weaknesses, or accepts their own. I did not say Hawke was in charge of Merrill's life, only that as a friend he can help her through her troubles, or he can make it much worst, people who don't like Merrill just make the situation worst, instead of making it better. They don't understand that she is being manipulated by a Demon, and then usually go so far as killing her, instead of helping her. I'm not sure where you get the idea that irony or sarcasm somehow = malice, P.G. Wodehouse was known to be a very innocent person, and he was a master of irony. Moreover, Aveline blatantly called Merrill a stupid person, which she is not (in fact her knowledge and intelligence are being exploited by a powerful demon) so she was not unprovoked.
You can agree to a deal from a Demon with no intention of following through with it, then stab it in the back later. That happens in the games (twice in DA2) and other media.
Dorothea doesn't deny what she did. She only reminds Leliana of her part in bringing about her own misery. These things aren't mutually exclusive.
Doesn't matter. Unless there is possession involved, striking a deal with a demon requires listening to its terms and agreeing to it. There are plenty of people who would never say yes to that.
But I see this will go nowhere, as you are determined to remove all accountability from as you put it, a supposedly intelligent person.
It requires the capacity to be mean spirited so yes, it cannot coexist with being this flawless saint.
Regarding Aveline, I was referring to another conversation.
Spoiler
No you're not getting away with a straw man. I'm not removing 'all accountability' I'm saying that the way people such as you treat Merrill's character is unreasonable. There is no vindication for treating her poorly, or killing her, especially when you can be her friend and help her. I said Merrill was an innocent person, I did not say "saint", you skipped over my example of P.G. Wodehouse. Dorethea is a separate issue (but whatever) she is still shifting blame from her own mistake; you have done nothing to show otherwise. Merrill is not stupid, as it takes both knowledge and intelligence to fix an eluvian, what she is a person being used by a being whose sole purpose is to manipulate the pride of individuals so as to posses them. No one is willingly manipulated, that is a performative contradiction. You either help Merrill, or make her worst; oddly, people like you would seemingly pick the later. As for irony "requiring mean spiritedness", who are you trying to fool with your made up bullshit? Was James Joyce mean spirited? Was Wodehouse? Was G.K. Chesterton? You condemning Merrill to hatred and death over a bit of irony is what is mean spirited.
Wait... say again? I mean I guess it's your opinion so it can be however you like it, but how does being promiscuous make someone unlikable? Is it a religious thing? I don't get it...
If I'm little biased, I wonder what are you? I didn't called him mage hater directly, I seconded the comment because indeed back to Origins he is bent to go after mages on the conflicts, even when a normal person has most fault like Isolde.
Second, you didn't read, did you? I pointed out that she tried to send Alistair back to home more than once, in fact she wouldn't need him, with Claudio's dead, the only thing she had to do was to wait until they leave to interrogate Claudio, she had the chance to find out Titus name without sharing it and go to save Maric herself, and we are just focusing on Yavana, aren't we?
I haven't ignored the fact that you have only posted excuses, attacking Yavana to make see your hero pretty, but you haven't said anything that can apology him from turning his back on Ferelden, in fact, the whole comics plot would never happen if he would be a responsible King, he left a country on crisis to possibly find a sack of bones, the country he claims to love doesn't seem to be getting all his attention.
But of course, he is the "good guy" so killing him for leaving and being a threat for Ferelden is something monstrous and illogical but killing a witch whose only crime has been fulfil a task that should fall on her mother's shoulders just just because the uncertainty of what the Dragons will do (I have to recall that it's only on the player's head, Alistair was thinking on apply the Architect's mistake and Loghain's faults on Yavana when he murdered her) is something good.
Finally, I don't remember anyone being double crossed and hurt by a Witch of the Wilds, your argument of apostasy applies to Dalish too, they also know blood magic and they aren't screwing around, and if I remember correctly, rogue Wardens and rogue Templars are also illegal to the point to be chased down.
I'm afraid there is no argument to change what Alistair is: a fool, a traitor, an hypocrite and lame being risen from a fool mother whose mistakes ruined the lives of many persons, you are free to seek another excuse for your hero, but there is a reason of why traitors shall burn on the ninth circle of hell, whoever Yavana, Ferelden or HoF, take the one you please, Alistair is a traitor and unlike Loghain, he doesn't even count with the logic's support.
Im not rly biased as he isn't my favorite and i can see his flaws like hypocrisy and in some places he is whining quite a lot.You didn't call him that directly but that is what you meant , also it isn't rly true from what i recall he suggests we may not have a choice with killing connor because he is an abomnation what is resonable statement (and may be true depending on our decisions) but if you decide to go to the circle he will be opt for that option.
I did read ,question is so what and yes indeed she needed him , of course there was Maric but pretty much he was out of reach.In first place she didn't give crap about saving Alistair trying to figure out what was in that for her ,and in the end she did tried use Alistair for questionable goal.You may try paint Yavana as innocent puppy but you are only lying to yourself.
And those are good "excuses" , as i said she was maleficar what would be enough for death sentence in almost every society in Thedas.Then we have fact she tried exploit and manipulate Alistair pretty much admiting that manipulating and lying to people is what she does (lol) , and then pretty much reveals plan that is threat to society.
Because i never argued about that? 
From what i recall he went there to save Maric what would be good for Ferelden. I will just say that he didn't want to be a king and didn't have to and yet chose to return so for sure he gave ferelden a lot and well not that i complain he slained dargon cultist and tevinter mage that tried brainwash entire world. 
.
I see you yet again ignore what i said trying make yavana innocent puppy 
. First as i said her "crimes" were manipulation , posing a threat to society and well as i said being Maleficar what is actual crime that is punished by death.He is "good guy" in first place despite his flaws Alistair is one of most heroic characters in da ,you can argue that killing Yavana was anti-heroic but pretty much that was about it. And no you are trying hard now by any mean he isn't threat to Ferelden im pretty sure ferelden stands with him as King or not.
Now you are trying hard.Again ,in first place that is a lie dalish mages are apostates ,of course it it happens that dalish mage can be maleficar, it has no revelance here ,it is like saying Orsino was fine because zathrian was blood mage.Another thing that he isn't rouge templar as he was released from his job when duncan recruited him and when it comes to being warden he became king and obviously wasn't legally prosecuted. And you don't remember that because he killed her while she was trying to manipulate him but again she pretty said that is what she does.
So much hate and i bias i see. Loghain was in fact traitor as he betrayed Cailain and his king so well...
Firstly an apology, I admit I've grown rampage on the last part of my comment.Im not rly biased as he isn't my favorite and i can see his flaws like hypocrisy and in some places he is whining quite a lot.You didn't call him that directly but that is what you meant , also it isn't rly true from what i recall he suggests we may not have a choice with killing connor because he is an abomnation what is resonable statement (and may be true depending on our decisions) but if you decide to go to the circle he will be opt for that option.
I did read ,question is so what and yes indeed she needed him , of course there was Maric but pretty much he was out of reach.In first place she didn't give crap about saving Alistair trying to figure out what was in that for her ,and in the end she did tried use Alistair for questionable goal.You may try paint Yavana as innocent puppy but you are only lying to yourself.
And those are good "excuses" , as i said she was maleficar what would be enough for death sentence in almost every society in Thedas.Then we have fact she tried exploit and manipulate Alistair pretty much admiting that manipulating and lying to people is what she does (lol) , and then pretty much reveals plan that is threat to society.
Because i never argued about that?
I see you yet again ignore what i said trying make yavana innocent puppy
So much hate and i bias i see.
No you're not getting away with a straw man. I'm not removing 'all accountability' I'm saying that the way people such as you treat Merrill's character is unreasonable. There is no vindication for treating her poorly, or killing her, especially when you can be her friend and help her. I said Merrill was an innocent person, I did not say "saint", you skipped over my example of P.G. Wodehouse. Dorethea is a separate issue (but whatever) she is still shifting blame from her own mistake; you have done nothing to show otherwise. Merrill is not stupid, as it takes both knowledge and intelligence to fix an eluvian, what she is a person being used by a being whose sole purpose is to manipulate the pride of individuals so as to posses them. No one is willingly manipulated, that is a performative contradiction. You either help Merrill, or make her worst; oddly, people like you would seemingly pick the later. As for irony "requiring mean spiritedness", who are you trying to fool with your made up bullshit? Was James Joyce mean spirited? Was Wodehouse? Was G.K. Chesterton? You condemning Merrill to hatred and death over a bit of irony is what is mean spirited.
Firstly an apology, I admit I've grown rampage on the last part of my comment.
Second, I don't pretend she is a lovely kitty, "Beast of the Tellari Swamps" is not a nickname earned lightly and even less on Antiva, but what people does (mostly Alistair fans and I have to point you did it as well) is run and place her directly on the "evil" spot to diminish Alistair's actions, while she may be not harmless, she is reasonable, and I have to insist, she tried to send him back more than once, so she wasn't as desperate to fulfil her goal as you portrayed her, and one thing is what is "legal" and a different thing is what is morally right perhaps saving a life doesn't turn someone in your friend, but even so, it has some credit.
About her goal, while Dragons may be dangerous for people, caring about dangerous animals is not the same than a sociopath waiting for a chance to hurt people (Snakes and Sharks are dangerous and I don't think you are going to tell me that is right kill them, beside that they kill less people than some animals you may see as harmless), Dragons on the area that still being under her care, are not actually bothering anyone (I even told you that she and her Dragon kicked out some Qunari arses during the invasion, if she wouldn't care a crap about society she would only protect the swamps), and there is enough proof that Dragons can be either tamed or live on harmony with humans, so, awakening some Dragons does not mean the end of society, and she pointed many died during the slumber, indeed she states there is only one remaining Great Dragon sleeping, And this was not the reason Alistair killed her, as I pointed before, furthermore Alistair would still being a treacherous hypocrite if that would be his excuse, because he played the same game against the conscripts on the Wardens and here the proof that some manipulation and lying donesn' necesarly turns someone on evil, Wardens are necessary but if people knew the truth, the Wardens would run out of numbers really fast.
And yes Loghain is a traitor, I never said otherwise, but Loghain, Branka and Howe get what they deserve regardless what and people doesn't put them into an altar and justify their actions as they do with Alistair, who runs away without punishment for the things he does, betrayal is betrayal, no justification for it, a witch, a templar, a commoner, a simple dog, it matters not, the wronged subject does not change the nature of the crime: abuse of someone's trust, exploit its aid and when its in need, leave it to its luck, or even worse, personally hurt it if there is nothing else to take.
You can argue whatever you want, if your goal is to prove Alistair>Yavana, I'll tell you, you won't succeed, there is little content about Yavana, just not enough proofs to paint her as evil as you and Warder want to paint her (I even dare to bet that if luckily she is not left aside she will prove not being evil) and for Alistair it's a fact that as more content we get of him, more lower he falls.
It is fine not a first time i see somone goes rampage on me and it wasn't worst.
I don't know what you mean by "evil" as people classify somone as evil differently but alistair simple had reason to classify her as evil in his book as she was manipulative trying to use him , Maleficar and had questionable and dangerous goals in his book.And pretty much ,yes she was quite desperate to fulfill her goal either by using marric or alistair.
Again dragons are not snakes ,snakes are dangerous for individual only while dragon pose threat for entire society needles to say we have more than one example of dragon rampages and killing and destroying everything on its path. Second even if dragons were under her control doesn't mean they were no threat ,avoiding fact she already showed she was self-serving and would help someone only if it meant benefit for her she pretty much happily admited to being liar and manipulator in front of alistair.Even if she wasn't "evil" she for certain did good job showing alistair that she was miles from good person.From what i recall he killed her because of her manipulations and harm they have caused what was in fact true what as i said Yavana happily admited.
And how lying (or in this case not telling whole truth), in order protect society (in fact whole world) is equal to self-serving manipulations in order to achive goal that was threat to society?Note that im not saying you can't be upset with what warden do or it is fine but pretty much what wardens tried to achieve was quite different what Yavana tried to achieve.Yes Alistair in some moments for certain shows hypocrisy and you still show anger by calling him treacherous when pretty much action wasn't by any mean treachery.
Im pretty sure a lot of people do put Loghain on altar and tries to justify his action pretty much people argue about it to this day and even reflected with quartermaster that protects loghain actions and regards him as hero,while loghain did many crappy things he meant well and cared for his country and that made him sympathetic for many players.No one protects branka because she was nutjob and howe pretty much lacked any redeemable traits.Alistair pretty much was heroic and one of most moral party members in dao objecting when player took self-serving and/or ruthless options.
Again and what Alistair did? Killed Yavana as i recall he never was her friend or lover, nor he promised her anything or were allies so in first place there was no betrayal because there was no bond between them.From what i recall yavana tried to exploit and manipulate alistair in first place so not rly abusing somone trust when it is no there nor that as i said she helped alistair because she had good heart or was concerned about him only because he was tool for her.And then we have pretty much every other point.
I don't rly have prove that alistair is more heroic than Yavana because she was at best morally ambiguous character and didn't do much to not look like pretty much villain that was exploiting and manipulating others for her own questionable goal.Lower , i wouldn't say that as i said he has to do anything villainous as far at worst he commited one single anti-heroic action.
You merely keep changing the words to say the same thing over and over again. Merril isn't responsible for her own decisions, Hawke is.
Merril isn't a saint, just too innocent to do anything morally bad. Oh, that's right. A saint.
I never agreed that she was manipulated to begin with, thus I'm not tampering with its definition. She knew well and good what she was doing but was too proud to acknowledge it.
Well, you chose an euphemism like irony. I, however, prefer to call it what it is. Sarcasm, a popular way to mock and have fun at someone's expense.
You you have not once understood what I have been saying this whole time; and sarcasm is a form of irony you twit, go take an English class.
It is fine not a first time i see somone goes rampage on me and it wasn't worst.
I don't know what you mean by "evil" as people classify somone as evil differently but alistair simple had reason to classify her as evil in his book as she was manipulative trying to use him , Maleficar and had questionable and dangerous goals in his book.And pretty much ,yes she was quite desperate to fulfill her goal either by using marric or alistair.
Again dragons are not snakes ,snakes are dangerous for individual only while dragon pose threat for entire society needles to say we have more than one example of dragon rampages and killing and destroying everything on its path. Second even if dragons were under her control doesn't mean they were no threat ,avoiding fact she already showed she was self-serving and would help someone only if it meant benefit for her she pretty much happily admited to being liar and manipulator in front of alistair.Even if she wasn't "evil" she for certain did good job showing alistair that she was miles from good person.From what i recall he killed her because of her manipulations and harm they have caused what was in fact true what as i said Yavana happily admited.
And how lying (or in this case not telling whole truth), in order protect society (in fact whole world) is equal to self-serving manipulations in order to achive goal that was threat to society?Note that im not saying you can't be upset with what warden do or it is fine but pretty much what wardens tried to achieve was quite different what Yavana tried to achieve.Yes Alistair in some moments for certain shows hypocrisy and you still show anger by calling him treacherous when pretty much action wasn't by any mean treachery.
Im pretty sure a lot of people do put Loghain on altar and tries to justify his action pretty much people argue about it to this day and even reflected with quartermaster that protects loghain actions and regards him as hero,while loghain did many crappy things he meant well and cared for his country and that made him sympathetic for many players.No one protects branka because she was nutjob and howe pretty much lacked any redeemable traits.Alistair pretty much was heroic and one of most moral party members in dao objecting when player took self-serving and/or ruthless options.
Again and what Alistair did? Killed Yavana as i recall he never was her friend or lover, nor he promised her anything or were allies so in first place there was no betrayal because there was no bond between them.From what i recall yavana tried to exploit and manipulate alistair in first place so not rly abusing somone trust when it is no there nor that as i said she helped alistair because she had good heart or was concerned about him only because he was tool for her.And then we have pretty much every other point.
I don't rly have prove that alistair is more heroic than Yavana because she was at best morally ambiguous character and didn't do much to not look like pretty much villain that was exploiting and manipulating others for her own questionable goal.Lower , i wouldn't say that as i said he has to do anything villainous as far at worst he commited one single anti-heroic action.
Loghain was in fact traitor as he betrayed Cailain and his king so well...
First, they entered on quality of allies when she agreed to explain what happened with his father (Alistair's blind hate towards her is pretty obvious at that moment because she didn't said anything to bother him in fact, for a logical person would be pretty obvious that misjudged Flemeth, because Yavana's existence proves that her mother is not an evil witch who seizes of her daughters' bodies.) then they became allies again when she shared the kidnaper's name and granted him a second chance to deal, so he indeed abused of her trust, unfair fight and it is betrayal, hands down. Yavana's matter aside; fooling recruits, giving the back to his friend or at least fellow Warden and his country for being unable to get his revenge, letting Ferelden on crisis to get some bones and the whole bunch of amoral decisions he would make haven't the Warden survived still being bad things that deserve punishment and some still counting as treachery, Gaider himself said that his actions on the comics were not out of character because they are congruent with DAO's behaviour, so there you have it <----
Second: You haven't stopped to say Yavana is self-serving and evil, she has dealt with visitors that were not going ti hurt her or her dragons, pretty sure there is nothing special on their blood, and Yavana doesn't seem to have the same likes that Morrigan on shiny things, so, I can say that she didn't get anything valuable for herself for aiding that people, nor for helping to kick out the Qunari. Also, her task itself (if it's her task and not her lazy mother's task) does not benefits her (unless she is a Dragon shapeshifting into a human), it benefits Dragons in first stance and Flemeth in a second. Yavana at most strikes me as a little deflected person that likes more the company of animals than of people, if I'm permitted to take characters from other franchises as example, she is like a diminished version of Poison Ivy, while Alistair actions reminds me more to another villain, he strikes me as a powerless and brainless version of the Primordial (to not make too long the story and save you some time, he's Halo's main villain and you likely may know him as Gravemind) seen on your perspective, he is pretty good damn right about what he does, he's clearing the galaxy to ensure his people won't be double crossed again, he even has the "copyright" of some species, still, his means to ensure his people's safety do not seem right to me, same for Alistair.
Third: Alistair is certainly the most overrated character on the franchise, that means he has more fans and that they will stand for him regardless he does, that means automatic "toxic" comments against anyone he doesn't like, the Comic's characters had little development and most of them happened to dislike him and he killed most of them, Yavana is the only one with a chance to come back, but those "toxic" comments against her (and I don't know why, but against most of out-game media characters) are likely going to deny any chance they could have to made it into a game.
Just because you talk to someone and they will tell you something by any means doesn't make you allies that would require consensual agreement on both parties and it wasn't in case by any mean i didn't saw alistair considering her an ally or making any deals with her that would make any bounds with her so no abusing trust again as she intened to use him in first place so there was no trust.Also no Yavana existance doesn't not prove that flemeth wasn't possessing her daughters as simple she could possess specific daughters or keep other daughters as an alternatives and/or just tools ,so pretty much you are making stuff up.From what i recall he didn't do any fooling of recruits only Duncan and even then duncan only refused to tell what joining is about until moment before joining and i see you have ignored part about it being done in order to save world?
Also from what i recall he leaves you because he thinks you are doing morally wrong thing and refuse justice to all those loghain pretty much sentenced to death in Ostagar , so while it can seen as betrayal of the party i don't see how that would make him less heroic as wynne betraying when you destroy ashes or simple leaving you if you are ahole.Of course question comes wheter he leaves you because you refused bring loghain to justice or grant him his revenge he claims first but we will never know.
Second, and i won't, as i said wheter she is evil is up to individual so i wasn't saying that she was evil but pretty much she showed she was self-serving as she bothered to help Alistair only when she had something in it and she was also manipulating and using others for her personal goals.Also from what i know WoT says that stories claim those things about her not as historical fact ,and yes pretty much she would have gain a lot from banishing qunari as pretty much they would have slain her for what she was ,so even if true as i said she had a lot in it and then we don't know whole story .
No? It doesn't benefit her besides that it gives her more power what pretty much is true if event you are saying happened?Also from what i recall dragon that caused rampages in 8:99 apparently was from Antiva ,if true so well she for certain didn't do good job with her dragons. 
Also from what i know Alistair killed 1 dangerous person (and you are talking as he killed an entire race including "innocent" people) that pretty much as i said gleefully admited to being liar and manipulator also trying to use and manipulate Alistair for own goals plus her schemes and manipulations lead to horrible shape Ferelden ended.
Third , that is matter of opinion you may dislike Alistair but other may like him.Im not sure i would qualify myself as his fan in first place but for certain i don't stand for everything he does for an example giving mages shelter i consider dumb decision.In first place my personal opinion on Yavana has nothing to do with Alistair (and i suspect it is true for many others) but i agree with his choice shanking her.I wouldn't mind Yavana living in certain word states (where alistair is dead) as it would show that our choices at least matter a little and affect world , but i don't want more returning characters in games Yavana or not nor i would like another character resurrected. 
Loghain situation at Ostagar is very complicated,because we have to consider that:a)He asked to Cailan to remain with him right before the battle ,but Cailan refusedb)He did waited a signal that arrived too late,so i believe that to save Cailan was a mission impossible,even with all the effortsI really do not blame Loghain for Ostagar that was a battle already lost and i never accused him of betrayal towards the King nor the game give to you concrete and definitive proof of this,since that this accusation can be presented at the landsmeet but is categorized as a lame one,in fact it would not help the warden to win the confrontation.Most of his crimes came after Ostagar,he betrayed Ferelden(the whole regent thing) and his daughter by locked her, or the illegal slavery .I never thought that he betrayed Cailan more likely that the king killed himself for glory.
Well he did betrayed him he left his king to die, now we can argue whether it was good that Loghain did that or not and belive me i don't have good opinion about Cailan. Funnily if i recall i saw on this froum somone talking about that developer confirmed if loghain intervened ferelden would have won this battle but im not sure if that if true.
Well he did betrayed him he left his king to die, now we can argue whether it was good that Loghain did that or not and belive me i don't have good opinion about Cailan. Funnily if i recall i saw on this froum somone talking about that developer confirmed if loghain intervened ferelden would have won this battle but im not sure if that if true.
This is the betrayal from group perspective because Loghain said something that he has not maintained,however in this specific case we can say that even if Loghain would have intervened,Cailan would have been dead the same,and with him the rest of the army(albeit Loghain failed completely because he used the men that he saved for the civil war)I would never understand of why a King (unless is a super warrior) want to fight in the front line,is like to see Putin fight on the field on the Crimean war,it doesn't make sense,a King is there to rule not to do the job of a soldier.
Unless devs comment about what if logain intervened is true ,pretty much what would happen is speculation loghain supporters (in and out universe) will claim that battle was lost and those who didn't support his actions will claim mainly that battle would/could have been won.Well lets say that Calin was quite dumb or to be nicer naive and he thought about this situation as it was bedtime story.
According to more than one character Dragons are important to the world and their disappearance would be a bad business for everyone, so, the same justification can be apply to her, and I still don't see any argument that could change my mind about it counts as betrayal, nor I get how do you think she could increase even more her power, when actually the ways to achieve such thing likely imply to hurt, if not to actually kill a Dragon. About the codex entry on WoT, those codex were written to make clear a point without actually messing with the player's world state, on Architect's case, the point was to make clear he was a magister on Yavana's that she was truly old, implicitly confirming she was the one who granted eternal life to Xenon (he didn't have a magic store by then, so that is not a self-serving action from Yavana). Back to Alistair, he is indeed dooming a whole specie (so my statement of Alistair using mistaken means like the Primordial is not entirely wrong), unless Yavana has a contingency plan to come back in case she was overthrown, then the only other person who may know how to wake them is Flemeth, and I think it's pretty clear that she is screwed this time, by the way, we've found 13 savage Dragons in the games, and only 3 out of 13 were actually messing on populated areas, even counting the one you mentioned, it would be 4 out of 14, still being a little number to assume a little bunch more would be a problem.Just because you talk to someone and they will tell you something by any means doesn't make you allies that would require consensual agreement on both parties and it wasn't in case by any mean i didn't saw alistair considering her an ally or making any deals with her that would make any bounds with her so no abusing trust again as she intened to use him in first place so there was no trust.Also no Yavana existance doesn't not prove that flemeth wasn't possessing her daughters as simple she could possess specific daughters or keep other daughters as an alternatives and/or just tools ,so pretty much you are making stuff up.From what i recall he didn't do any fooling of recruits only Duncan and even then duncan only refused to tell what joining is about until moment before joining and i see you have ignored part about it being done in order to save world?
Also from what i recall he leaves you because he thinks you are doing morally wrong thing and refuse justice to all those loghain pretty much sentenced to death in Ostagar , so while it can seen as betrayal of the party i don't see how that would make him less heroic as wynne betraying when you destroy ashes or simple leaving you if you are ahole.Of course question comes wheter he leaves you because you refused bring loghain to justice or grant him his revenge he claims first but we will never know.
Second, and i won't, as i said wheter she is evil is up to individual so i wasn't saying that she was evil but pretty much she showed she was self-serving as she bothered to help Alistair only when she had something in it and she was also manipulating and using others for her personal goals.Also from what i know WoT says that stories claim those things about her not as historical fact ,and yes pretty much she would have gain a lot from banishing qunari as pretty much they would have slain her for what she was ,so even if true as i said she had a lot in it and then we don't know whole story .
No? It doesn't benefit her besides that it gives her more power what pretty much is true if event you are saying happened?Also from what i recall dragon that caused rampages in 8:99 apparently was from Antiva ,if true so well she for certain didn't do good job with her dragons.
Also from what i know Alistair killed 1 dangerous person (and you are talking as he killed an entire race including "innocent" people) that pretty much as i said gleefully admited to being liar and manipulator also trying to use and manipulate Alistair for own goals plus her schemes and manipulations lead to horrible shape Ferelden ended.
Third , that is matter of opinion you may dislike Alistair but other may like him.Im not sure i would qualify myself as his fan in first place but for certain i don't stand for everything he does for an example giving mages shelter i consider dumb decision.In first place my personal opinion on Yavana has nothing to do with Alistair (and i suspect it is true for many others) but i agree with his choice shanking her.I wouldn't mind Yavana living in certain word states (where alistair is dead) as it would show that our choices at least matter a little and affect world , but i don't want more returning characters in games Yavana or not nor i would like another character resurrected.
According to more than one character Dragons are important to the world and their disappearance would be a bad business for everyone, so, the same justification can be apply to her, and while I don't see any argument that could change my mind about it counts as betrayal, about the codex entry on WoT, those codex were written to make clear a point without actually messing with the player's world state, on Architect's case, the point was to make clear he was a magister on Yavana's that she was truly old, implicitly confirming she was the one who granted eternal life to Xenon (he didn't have a magic store by then, so that is not a self-serving action from Yavana). Back to Alistair, he is indeed dooming a whole specie (so my statement of Alistair using mistaken means like the Primordial is not entirely wrong), unless Yavana has a contingency plan to come back in case she was overthrown, then the only other person who may know how to wake them is Flemeth, and I think it's pretty clear that she is screwed this time, by the way, we've found 13 savage Dragons in the game, and only 3 out of 13 went to mess on populated areas, even counting the one you mentioned, it would be 4 out of 14, still being a little number to assume a little bunch more would be a problem.
Alistair may have reason to lose respect for the Warden (ignoring the fact he's throwing to a dump everything the Warden did for him) but it still does not justify turning his back on Ferelden, sparing Loghain was the Warden's choice, not Ferelden's. As for Loghain, he still being a traitor for the other things he did, but Ostagar doesn't has to be counted, even if his intervention could win the battle, it would be a pyrrhic victory, the horde did no other thing to grow stronger and that was a certainty, not some writer's note.
Finally, what would be the problem with actually respect choices that could change things? I know most people hates DA2 compared to DAO and DAO, but it was comfortable to see the choices taken actually mattered, unlike DAI, where the plot lines that weren't ignored were just left aside, Titus and Maric are pretty much screwed for being between a sandwich of Qunari and Magisters but Claudio and Yavana still may have a chance, it would be a waste for both being left aside anyway.
What characters?As i said you can dislike alistair and like yavana but him killing her won't make it betrayal because alistair pretty much kept it clear he isn't her ally pretty same did yavana when she refused to help save alistair asking what she will have in it.I see you are still trying hard to whitewash her actions as they were out of kindes of her heart... in first place it is said she made deal with him so she obviously had something in it and he had a quite a lot considering he was noble and that is without how that deal went for that guy ,and best part if she lives for centuries she pretty much willingly screwd him with fate worse then death when she herself have a way to maitain youth.
I don't rly care about dragons as i said there are menace to society so in my book they can die.Also from what i recall 7 out of 10 dragons had its lair in populated areas difference was that we saw damage done by some of those dragons and that others were in not populated areas doesn't mean they were harmless. Also we 2 extra dragons that rampaged in da 2.So ,it is beyond even argument that dragons are menance for society because we have enough examples.Also we had 10 dragons in dai , 11 if you count dragon you can tame (and we don't know if he did something or not) oh and we have corypheus red lyrium dragon but he was obvious threat to society but i won't count him as it wasn't normal dragon or at least by the point of dai.
He didn't only lose respect for the warden only grey wardens in general i guess he leaves because he doesn't want take part in it , i find it little hypocritical on his side considering that he said that wardens do what is necessary it makes me wonder if guy rly belived that considering how naive his views on grey wardens turned to be.
Again we don't know if it would be pyrrhic victory because we don't know how battle would go if loghain intervened ,if for an example the king would survived pretty much civil war wouldn't take place and grey wardens would send aid , same for orlais.
It seems they can't simple handle import ,if you are saying that in da2 choices mattered i would say it isn't truth , both da 2 and dai mostly had purely cosmetic differences when it comes to choices at best you got an extra quest/war table missions from choice but only in few cases ,also like inquisition da 2 didn't shy away from bringing choice into same fate like leliana fate , anders fate and some of the boons.
You guys are arguing about a character and events that aren't even canon. It's a character from a comic book and a really cheap iOS/Android mobile game. I don't even understand how any of this is really relevant on the evolution of Alistaire in Dragon Age Origins. It's all subjectively personal based on headcanon. What any person's given playthrough is like, that determines how they view their party members and other NPC's.
And before anyone argues about what is considered "canon", here's what Dave Gaider had to say about it.
As long as you're here... is there any way I can get you to comment on the canonicity of the prequel novels? It doesn't seem as if players mention this very often, being more concerned with conflicts with their own games, which as you've explained, isn't an issue.
"The two prequel novels are canon-- there is nothing for them to conflict with.
And it is fine to assume that, if your particularly playthrough matches up with the events depicted in Asunder or the comics, those events occurred in the way they're portrayed and will be treated as such in future games. If your particular playthrough does not, then those events either happened differently or not at all. In a game we have the luxury of that kind of variability. In either case, you'll only see how it works once DA3 comes out".
So ONLY the two prequel novels are considered canon. That's it. Everything else is just... well licensed material. And that's about all the consideration they are worth.
Flemeth, Solas, Morrigan, The Architect, even noble dudes like Prosper and Sebastian, scholars like Frederic have stated they like them and that their extinction would be a great loss, normal people also have stated they like them as long they keep their noses on the outskirts and eat the bandits.What characters?As i said you can dislike alistair and like yavana but him killing her won't make it betrayal because alistair pretty much kept it clear he isn't her ally pretty same did yavana when she refused to help save alistair asking what she will have in it.I see you are still trying hard to whitewash her actions as they were out of kindes of her heart... in first place it is said she made deal with him so she obviously had something in it and he had a quite a lot considering he was noble and that is without how that deal went for that guy ,and best part if she lives for centuries she pretty much willingly screwd him with fate worse then death when she herself have a way to maitain youth.
I don't rly care about dragons as i said there are menace to society so in my book they can die.Also from what i recall 7 out of 10 dragons had its lair in populated areas difference was that we saw damage done by some of those dragons and that others were in not populated areas doesn't mean they were harmless. Also we 2 extra dragons that rampaged in da 2.So ,it is beyond even argument that dragons are menance for society because we have enough examples.Also we had 10 dragons in dai , 11 if you count dragon you can tame (and we don't know if he did something or not) oh and we have corypheus red lyrium dragon but he was obvious threat to society but i won't count him as it wasn't normal dragon or at least by the point of dai.
He didn't only lose respect for the warden only grey wardens in general i guess he leaves because he doesn't want take part in it , i find it little hypocritical on his side considering that he said that wardens do what is necessary it makes me wonder if guy rly belived that considering how naive his views on grey wardens turned to be.
Again we don't know if it would be pyrrhic victory because we don't know how battle would go if loghain intervened ,if for an example the king would survived pretty much civil war wouldn't take place and grey wardens would send aid , same for orlais.
It seems they can't simple handle import ,if you are saying that in da2 choices mattered i would say it isn't truth , both da 2 and dai mostly had purely cosmetic differences when it comes to choices at best you got an extra quest/war table missions from choice but only in few cases ,also like inquisition da 2 didn't shy away from bringing choice into same fate like leliana fate , anders fate and some of the boons.
You guys are arguing about a character and events that aren't even canon. It's a character from a comic book and a really cheap iOS/Android mobile game. I don't even understand how any of this is really relevant on the evolution of Alistaire in Dragon Age Origins. It's all subjectively personal based on headcanon. What any person's given playthrough is like, that determines how they view their party members and other NPC's.
And before anyone argues about what is considered "canon", here's what Dave Gaider had to say about it.
So ONLY the two prequel novels are considered canon. That's it. Everything else is just... well licensed material. And that's about all the consideration they are worth.
He is not saying the characters involved aren't canon, only the story around them happened differently or didn't happen, but characters like Lambert, Titus, Maevaris, Claudio and Yavana are canon.
I am afraid not. None of them appear in game and hence are not considered canon.
Flemeth, Solas, Morrigan, The Architect, even noble dudes like Prosper and Sebastian, scholars like Frederic have stated they like them and that their extinction would be a great loss, normal people also have stated they like them as long they keep their noses on the outskirts and eat the bandits.
I'm not trying to whitewash her, In fact my assessments are being pretty congruent with my daily life, the answer is much more simple, we have different perceptions of treachery, under your assessment of treachery, I'll had to forgive the corrupt politicians on my country, we don't know each other, they give two craps about what happens to me and you can be sure I would laugh rather than feel any empathy for what could possibly happen to them, despite their masquerade they really don't like people and I don't like politicians either, I don't trust them, I would not willingly help them, yet, when they began to get a benefit from me, and I rather than winning something or remaining on a neutral status began to being screwed, on that moment it turned to be a betrayal for me
Regarding Xenon, he got what he asked and I don't really see him arguing about that, in fact he tries to recover his youth rather than ask for death, and I don't know why you think she willingly ruined his life, perhaps she was able to cast a spell to keep death away from someone, but keeping youth is something different than endless life, Flemeth got Mythal on an early stage of her life, and even with that power she grows older, Yavana's youth might be connected to the temple itself (like Abelas) or she uses blood magic (like the Baroness) or perhaps uses some kind of dragon binding and gets a prolonged lifespan, none of them could be shared with Xenon, because he doesn't live on the Grove, he doesn't own a Dragon and he is not a Blood mage.
Alistair is such a moron, the Warden can happen to be the person who most loved him on his life, Fiona and Maric abandoned him, Eamon put Isolde over him and Duncan decreased his lifespan to twenty years from his joining, but he even puts vengeance over duty and love without attending reasons (but hey! he gave you a fcking flower :v)
I'm afraid it would be pyrrhic victory, they maybe could endure the wave we saw, after that they would have to retreat, but knowing Cailan, he would be persistent to stay to fight another wave, Loghain's army wasn't even as big as Cailan's, it just was formed by elite soldiers, however darkspawn can overthrow Golems and Dragons just with numbers, so, even together they could not stand for much longer, the last wave was even able to trespass Ferelden's best fortress and go to f*ck Denerim at the same time.
Events from books and even this specific comic are canon
None of them said that dragons are important to the world and if they were gone it would be bad business for the world from what i recall , while Frederic spoke in sense pure ecological considering he is fascinated with dragons.
Now you are jumping all over chart (well you were doing that before) to corrupt politcians who don't have anything to do with alistair, from what i know politicians pretty much willingly decide to work for their country if they act against it , it definitely can be seen as betrayal of their country because bond was made same for obligations .
Well considering that by making that choice you stomp what guy belives in and refuse deliver to justice guy that sentenced to death his friends in his eyes he simple might saw the warden as person not he thought she/he was.Well at least he didn't try to kill us like wynne or leliana. 
Yeah Eamon screwd alistair hard but i think he liked duncan because he took him away from life he hated.
We don't know simple what would happen and what cailain would do after this battle from what i recall they awaited on aid from orlais question is when they would handle the blight even if they succeed.From what i remember darkspawn send only some forces and they didn't managed to take over redcliff castle it wasn't even battle just simple attack and after all ferelden was rather weakened after not only leaving part of their amy in Ostagar but also from civil war.
I am afraid not. None of them appear in game and hence are not considered canon.
Events from asunder and masked empire are canon as characters from books pretty much same for comic.
Characters from books does appear Cole , Rhys , Evangeline and Lambert from Asunder are mentioned and appear in game (In cole case) same as events that happened in the book , characters from masked empire like Celene , Gaspard , Briala ,Michael ,Mihris and Imshael does appear in dai as well and events from book also are described. As for comic maevaris shows up in war table mission and events that happened in comic are mentioned by warden Alistair.
Events from books and even this specific comic are canon
Events from asunder and masked empire are canon as characters from books pretty much same for comic.
Characters from books does appear Cole , Rhys , Evangeline and Lambert from Asunder are mentioned and appear in game (In cole case) same as events that happened in the book , characters from masked empire like Celene , Gaspard , Briala ,Michael ,Mihris and Imshael does appear in dai as well and events from book also are described. As for comic maevaris shows up in war table mission and events that happened in comic are mentioned by warden Alistair.
As I pointed out in Post #370, Dave Gaider seems to disagree with you. Just the prequel novels are considered canon.
As I pointed out in Post #370, Dave Gaider seems to disagree with you.
LoL now you are desperate Andromelek already have explained what DG said ,and pretty much i already have pointed that characters from books are in the game and while also some events from books are mentioned in the game.
Unless you want to argue that they aren't in the game and belive me i will end it quickly by providing link to video they are in there is not much to discussion in terms of books being canon.
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