1001 réponses à ce sujet

[Dark Helmet]

You know what this game needs to REALLY get across to the BSN?

 

Lots of Waifus.

 

Doesn't matter what they are, just add a few and the BSNers will come running.

[LinksOcarina]

No one has played Growlanser before have they?

[Morty Smith]

You know what this game needs to REALLY get across to the BSN?

 

Lots of Waifus.

 

Doesn't matter what they are, just add a few and the BSNers will come running.

 

You´re opening a can of triggers.

[In Exile]

Clearly you are a casual who is terrible at RNG.

Learn to RNG bro.

[Nordicus]

Seem's people are taking the most offense to the fact that I said some mechanics are unnecessary and that the dice-rolling boils down to luck more than it should. At least it's not the score for once.

I will try to explain here why dicerolling is a necessity in turn-based and RTwP RPGs in particular.

First, the comparison to Skyrim as a game that is an example without RNGs like that, is horrible. There is a huge difference between a game where to attack, you click on an enemy, and a game where you manually aim and have to rely on your hand-eye coordination. There is a chance of occasional failure always present in action game, you need something to simulate that in a game with controls as simple as PoE. Are you saying that you archer should never accidentally whiff that headshot on your enemy? Or hit the torso instead? Or scratch the ear? In Skyrim, most of that stuff can happen because you simply aim badly and then react with "Oh f***!", but PoE? Not doable without RNG

Second, there is a level of safety in random chance. You keep talking about enemies critting you, or your blows constantly missing, but has it occurred to you that these moments are not repeated forever, unlike in a system where everything is static?

The difference between melee attack that stuns with 100% accuracy for 1.5 seconds, and melee that stuns with 25% accuracy for 6 seconds? Downright cheesy gamebreaking stunlock, even if the expected time in stunlock is roughly the same. With the latter, you can eventually escape out of it, or never have that stun occur to begin with, while with former, you're already dead, game over, start again. It also is the same when you're the one stunning, you can't cheat through it with 100% reliable stunlock.

In extreme situations, yes RNG can be infuriating, but these games with RNGs are about working a bad situation to your advantage. XCOM Enemy Unknown was an incredibly well received game, and that game had much harsher RNG than PoE has. It was still doable to adapt to a bad situation and fight in spite of bad rolls. It's the reason why there can be professional poker players. Player skill > RNG. Pillar's of Eternity's RNG works on a much smoother curve too.

 

In the old Infinity Engine games, it's that you either crit, hit or miss, the chances of missing being huge, with no damage reductions giving solid defense. Early game was absolute hell because of this. 3 crits in a row? Try one crit, or one decent damage hit from an early game goblin archer and then suddenly your Wizard dies, and reviving him costs 100gp. 90% of those goblin archer shots will mis, but the hitting 10% is instadeath to squishy units. Perhaps in a hardcore permadeath game where units are extremely expendable, that would have been fine, but I'm talking about Baldur's Gate 1 and Icewind Dale 1. Naah, doesn't fit. A horribly binary system where almost only the extremes can exist until you get to higher levels

 

In Pillars of Eternity, the RNG is generally balanced so that you can get a picture of how effective something is, but there's chance that the next time, that same action will have comparably better or worse results

[Farangbaa]

The RNG on PotD is awful though, especially in the beginning. It's so awful I think that Trial of Iron on PotD is impossible without force quiting the game to be able to reload.

[Draining Dragon]

Fair point, but I have problems with people who tend to play RPG's deterministic as it is. 
 
Like, if a gamebook gives a God stats and HP, players think they can kill him in combat if they are high enough of a level...that should not always be the case.
 
And when it comes up, in my own experience, folks tended to behave flippantly because they designed characters specifically for god-killing. It is one of those instances where the rules should be guidelines, and not the letter of the word. 

This is actually the reason the Lady of Pain doesn't have stats. She can't be defeated under any circumstances.

Though I remember seeing somebody post some sample stats for her. It said something like this:

HP: More
AC: You miss
Attack: Hits

[Das Tentakel]

That's why I've always disliked giving stats to powers or deities. Do you give hit points to a mountain? Do you give AC to the ocean? Deities should be forces of nature, not able to be sliced apart with a sword or scorched by a fireball. Players all too often view it as a puzzle to be overcome than seeing as it should be - an obstacle that is never meant to be beaten.

There’s an old rhetorical question in roleplaying circles, ‘How many hitpoints does Jesus have?’, as an example of the annoying tendency of early RPG’s for giving stats for even the mightiest of supernatural entities.

Some people even tried to figure it out…

http://www.minmaxboa...p?topic=10556.0

On minmaxboards, where else?

[Akrabra]

Just finished the game. Took me about 50 hours on hard. I had a few bugs, mostly the stat stacking. Durance running around with 80 Intellect trolling everyone. Got rid of it though. And now i am abit empty for words. First of all i mainly play roleplaying games because of their unique approach to storytelling. Gameplay is a bonus, but it never drives me to continue on its own. The story has to be engaging and the world has to feel alive. Obsidian often has a problem with that last one for me, but Pillars of Eternity is beautiful in every regard. The way the world is fleshed out showing the good with the bad, showing people as people. So many nuances and way to interpret situations occuring. I am at a loss of words, because of that. The game was unique in that way and it made me feel.

 

My main problems with the game lies with the gameplay. I like it, but as many have stated over me the reasons to have diceroll, luck as a factor in gameplay. It is not something i enjoy immensly anymore or i am just not used to it in modern games therefore it feels ufamiliar now. But i do like the tactial approach to the fights and that you can actually use it to win through. So all in all a great game, everyone that likes rpg's should play this game. 

[Fast Jimmy]

There’s an old rhetorical question in roleplaying circles, ‘How many hitpoints does Jesus have?’, as an example of the annoying tendency of early RPG’s for giving stats for even the mightiest of supernatural entities.

Some people even tried to figure it out…

http://www.minmaxboa...p?topic=10556.0

On minmaxboards, where else?

During Combat Unitarian Jesus attacks only in
defense of others and/or while confronting corrupt
or abusive worldly powers
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 18, Cha 18
Base Atk +13; CMB +6; CMD 12
Feats
Iron Will, Skill Focus (Knowledge [geography, local,
nature, history], Diplomacy)
Skills
Appraise +14, Diplomacy +17, Knowledge (dungeoneering,
engineering, local) +13, Knowledge
(geography) +12, Knowledge (history) +14,
Knowledge (nature) +17, Knowledge (nobility)
+5, Knowledge (religion) +10, Linguistics +14
Languages
Aramaic, Hebrew
Combat Gear/Treasure
robe, sandals

Oh my Go... Oh my word, that is hilarious.

[In Exile]

Oh my Go... Oh my word, that is hilarious.

Resurrection: Self is pretty broken. Almost had a TPK but then I managed to solo the dungeon just with Jesus. They should add a cooldown even if it is lore breaking.

[Fast Jimmy]

Resurrection: Self is pretty broken. Almost had a TPK but then I managed to solo the dungeon just with Jesus. They should add a cooldown even if it is lore breaking.

Hmmmm. See, my DM got around that by having a giant rock block him in. Even if he can self rez, no way he can move a giant stone.

[Farangbaa]

Before Combat
Jesus casts protection from evil, magic vestment,
remove fear
During Combat
Jesus refuses to attack any foe himself, excepting
moneychangers occupying religious buildings,
which case He makes either unarmed or improvised
weapon attacks until they leave the area.

*snickers*

[LinksOcarina]

I will try to explain here why dicerolling is a necessity in turn-based and RTwP RPGs in particular.

First, the comparison to Skyrim as a game that is an example without RNGs like that, is horrible. There is a huge difference between a game where to attack, you click on an enemy, and a game where you manually aim and have to rely on your hand-eye coordination. There is a chance of occasional failure always present in action game, you need something to simulate that in a game with controls as simple as PoE. Are you saying that you archer should never accidentally whiff that headshot on your enemy? Or hit the torso instead? Or scratch the ear? In Skyrim, most of that stuff can happen because you simply aim badly and then react with "Oh f***!", but PoE? Not doable without RNG

Second, there is a level of safety in random chance. You keep talking about enemies critting you, or your blows constantly missing, but has it occurred to you that these moments are not repeated forever, unlike in a system where everything is static?

The difference between melee attack that stuns with 100% accuracy for 1.5 seconds, and melee that stuns with 25% accuracy for 6 seconds? Downright cheesy gamebreaking stunlock, even if the expected time in stunlock is roughly the same. With the latter, you can eventually escape out of it, or never have that stun occur to begin with, while with former, you're already dead, game over, start again. It also is the same when you're the one stunning, you can't cheat through it with 100% reliable stunlock.

In extreme situations, yes RNG can be infuriating, but these games with RNGs are about working a bad situation to your advantage. XCOM Enemy Unknown was an incredibly well received game, and that game had much harsher RNG than PoE has. It was still doable to adapt to a bad situation and fight in spite of bad rolls. It's the reason why there can be professional poker players. Player skill > RNG. Pillar's of Eternity's RNG works on a much smoother curve too.

 

In the old Infinity Engine games, it's that you either crit, hit or miss, the chances of missing being huge, with no damage reductions giving solid defense. Early game was absolute hell because of this. 3 crits in a row? Try one crit, or one decent damage hit from an early game goblin archer and then suddenly your Wizard dies, and reviving him costs 100gp. 90% of those goblin archer shots will mis, but the hitting 10% is instadeath to squishy units. Perhaps in a hardcore permadeath game where units are extremely expendable, that would have been fine, but I'm talking about Baldur's Gate 1 and Icewind Dale 1. Naah, doesn't fit. A horribly binary system where almost only the extremes can exist until you get to higher levels

 

In Pillars of Eternity, the RNG is generally balanced so that you can get a picture of how effective something is, but there's chance that the next time, that same action will have comparably better or worse results

 

Look i'm still pissed that in Mass Effect one I can't get a headshot on a guy at point blank range at times because of random dice rolls. T

 

Any form of explanation is not adequate enough. Not because I think it's bad by any stretch of the word, but because a lot of people don't like dice-rolling as their governing mechanic for the reasons I have already stated. It may be much more balanced than Icewind Dale ever was, but that says very little in the end since it is still a frustrating aspect of the game when you least expect it. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Look i'm still pissed that in Mass Effect one I can't get a headshot on a guy at point blank range at times because of random dice rolls. T

Any form of explanation is not adequate enough. Not because I think it's bad by any stretch of the word, but because a lot of people don't like dice-rolling as their governing mechanic for the reasons I have already stated. It may be much more balanced than Icewind Dale ever was, but that says very little in the end since it is still a frustrating aspect of the game when you least expect it.

I think the reason for this is that range didn't play a part of the calculation. If you were in range, you didn't suffer a penalty. If you were point blank, you'd have the same chance to hit as if you were forty here away. That's not smart mechanics.

But it would make more sense if ME was a game where the player never aimed at all. If, instead, you simply chose the target and dice roll did the rest, like PoE or DA. Having player skill tied into character skill that way just leads to frustration or metagaming rather than have it really work as a mechanism.

[Das Tentakel]

Oh my Go... Oh my word, that is hilarious.

 

Unitarian Jesus is one thing, but some of those Jesus builds are totally overpowered. Completely removes any balance from the god 'game'...

 

[CybAnt1]

 

If you thought he could just multiply loaves and fishes, wait till you see what he can do with ammo. 

[Endurium]

Back on topic... I found out I could attack the caravan at the beginning of the game, with predictable results. Got a laugh out of the game allowing me to do that.

[Fast Jimmy]

If you thought he could just multiply loaves and fishes, wait till you see what he can do with ammo.

Blessed are the peace makers... for they shall be called the BAMFs of God.

[Fast Jimmy]

Back on topic... I found out I could attack the caravan at the beginning of the game, with predictable results. Got a laugh out of the game allowing me to do that.

Being pretty weak that early on, I imagine it didn't end well for you?

[L. Han]

Back on topic... I found out I could attack the caravan at the beginning of the game, with predictable results. Got a laugh out of the game allowing me to do that.

 

The Caravan master is surprisingly good with the axe of his. It also helps him that the whole caravan turn into a mob of blood thirsty fisters.

[Nordicus]

Patch notes for the patch coming in <2 days

 

RIP Foe AoE Chill Fog. You will be remembered as awesome but admittedly overpowered

[LinksOcarina]

The Caravan master is surprisingly good with the axe of his. It also helps him that the whole caravan turn into a mob of blood thirsty fisters.

 

Does Calisca turn on you? 

 

 

Patch notes for the patch coming in <2 days

 

RIP Foe AoE Chill Fog. You will be remembered as awesome but admittedly overpowered

 

God damnit, that was something I liked with the Chill Fog. Ah well...

[cJohnOne]

I started up a bunch of characters in Pillar of Eternity but I think I'll go with Barbarian with Strength and Constitution. I like things simple in combat. The monk looks a little more oomplicated than a barbarian. Also interested in the Ranger but decided that I don't like the bear companion. I like either the wolf or the boar.

Don't understand the priest because of his low health. I'm thinking of giving him a shield for deflection and a mace.

[Akrabra]

Patch notes for the patch coming in <2 days

 

RIP Foe AoE Chill Fog. You will be remembered as awesome but admittedly overpowered

Patch looks good. Will wait for it to release before i start a new character. Need to play Jaws of Hakkon anyway. Ah easter gaming, holiday tradition.