182 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

it'll happen one day for Firefly....

 

 

right?

 

 

RIGHT!?!

 

.....Maybe

[Rawgrim]

Who's the "you" there?

 

It was meant as an in general "you".

[Rawgrim]

You have a funny definition of "killing the franchise" then.

 

More like killing what the franchise used to be, and changing it into something else. Just because it has the logo doesn't mean its DA. DA used to be about story, choices and consequences. Now it is about button mashing, fetch quests, and jumping puzzles.

[o Ventus]

More like killing what the franchise used to be, and changing it into something else. Just because it has the logo doesn't mean its DA. DA used to be about story, choices and consequences. Now it is about button mashing, fetch quests, and jumping puzzles.

So DA isn't still about story, choices, or consequences? So there isn't a supporting cast of companions with their own quirks and personalities? Or a villain with a proper motivation? If I let Hawke die in the Fade, he comes back as if nothing happened? You did imply that consequences aren't an issue after all.

 

@ the bold: seriously though, what? If you think this game is about button-mashing, then you must not play many games. And jumping puzzles? There isn't a single jumping puzzle IN the game. Platforming, sure, but no puzzles that involve jumping.

[Grieving Natashina]

@ the bold: seriously though, what? If you think this game is about button-mashing, then you must not play many games. And jumping puzzles? There isn't a single jumping puzzle IN the game. Platforming, sure, but no puzzles that involve jumping.

Not quite true.  You have to do a little bit of hopping in the Temple of Mythal when you walk the Petitioner's Path (which is optional.)  It isn't much though.  You also do have to do some jumping in order to get to those shards (which is also optional.)  I think he's overstating it, but he's not completely off-base here.

[o Ventus]

Not quite true.  You have to do a little bit of hopping in the Temple of Mythal when you walk the Petitioner's Path.  It isn't much though.  You also do have to do some jumping in order to get to those shards.  I think he's overstating it, but he's not completely off-base here.

 

When I hear the term "jumping puzzles", I think of things that mandate jumping and precise platforming, like timed platforms or momentum puzzles, like in Portal.

 

So sure, he isn't completely off base. Only about 95% off base, since the only time jumping is ever *necessary* is when you need to hop over a wall in the Temple of Mythal (which itself is not a puzzle unless you're functionally retarded). The puzzle doesn't involve jumping at all, it's running around to light up tiles. The jumping is just the means by which you get from one puzzle area to the other.

[Grieving Natashina]

When I hear the term "jumping puzzles", I think of things that mandate jumping and precise platforming, like timed platforms or momentum puzzles, like in Portal.

 

So sure, he isn't completely off base. Only about 95% off base, since the only time jumping is ever *necessary* is when you need to hop over a wall in the Temple of Mythal (which itself is not a puzzle unless you're functionally retarded). The puzzle doesn't involve jumping at all, it's running around to light up tiles. The jumping is just the means by which you get from one puzzle area to the other.

I agree, except for the Temple of Mythal.  I got stuck pretty bad my first time there, and needed a walkthrough.  Ironically, it's because there hadn't been any jumping puzzles until that point. .  It was a curveball in the gameplay I wasn't expecting.    It took 3 minutes on my second playthrough for all three puzzles.   I personally don't count the shards, since that's more of a platforming pain in the keister than a full blown puzzle.  YMMV though.

[Rawgrim]

So DA isn't still about story, choices, or consequences? So there isn't a supporting cast of companions with their own quirks and personalities? Or a villain with a proper motivation? If I let Hawke die in the Fade, he comes back as if nothing happened? You did imply that consequences aren't an issue after all.

 

@ the bold: seriously though, what? If you think this game is about button-mashing, then you must not play many games. And jumping puzzles? There isn't a single jumping puzzle IN the game. Platforming, sure, but no puzzles that involve jumping.

 

Not really, no. None of the choices you make have any negative outcome for you or the inquisition. And a bad choice made by you never strengthens your enemy. So what if you leave Hawke or Stroud? Nothing comes of it. One is dead the other isn't. You don't lose any support or power based on any choice you make.

 

And come on. And old wizard wanting to become a god so he can rule the world? That is arguably the biggest clichè in fantasy. He doesn't even do anything. You pick apart every one of his plans, one by one, and he just sits there. He doesn't counter your actions or strike back at all. What is heroic about fighting someone who doesn't fight back? That is called being a bully, not a hero.

 

It is a button mashing hack and slash game. Simply because tactics is not needed. You can't even set up tactics for your companions in this game. Every fight in the game can be won by just button mashing. Do a search on youtube and you can find plenty vids of people doing that.

 

Missed all the jumping puzzles, did you? Try getting all the shards etc.

[o Ventus]

I agree, except for the Temple of Mythal.  I got stuck pretty bad my first time there, and needed a walkthrough.  Ironically, it's because there hadn't been any jumping puzzles until that point.  It was a curveball in the gameplay I wasn't expecting.    It took 3 minutes on my second playthrough for all three puzzles.

Which part of the Temple of Mythal is a jumping puzzle? The only time I remember jumping being *necessary* to continue is for one of the door rituals, where in one part you need to jump over a wall to be able to light up some floor tiles. That's hardly a puzzle when it requires no thought or planning. It's just jumping over a wall.

[Rawgrim]

When I hear the term "jumping puzzles", I think of things that mandate jumping and precise platforming, like timed platforms or momentum puzzles, like in Portal.

 

So sure, he isn't completely off base. Only about 95% off base, since the only time jumping is ever *necessary* is when you need to hop over a wall in the Temple of Mythal (which itself is not a puzzle unless you're functionally retarded). The puzzle doesn't involve jumping at all, it's running around to light up tiles. The jumping is just the means by which you get from one puzzle area to the other.

 

Think of it as needing to solve problems by figuring out where to jump etc to get from A to B, then. Its pretty much an arcade element, really.

[Rawgrim]

Which part of the Temple of Mythal is a jumping puzzle? The only time I remember jumping being *necessary* to continue is for one of the door rituals, where in one part you need to jump over a wall to be able to light up some floor tiles. That's hardly a puzzle when it requires no thought or planning. It's just jumping over a wall.

 

More like a puzzle, that required you to jump here and there to complete it.

[Grieving Natashina]

Which part of the Temple of Mythal is a jumping puzzle? The only time I remember jumping being *necessary* to continue is for one of the door rituals, where in one part you need to jump over a wall to be able to light up some floor tiles. That's hardly a puzzle when it requires no thought or planning. It's just jumping over a wall.

I didn't know I had to even jump over a wall to complete the puzzle.  I consider it a puzzle, since you have to do a set pattern in order to finish the area.   I overlooked the wall, somehow.  I know, it's silly, but it happens.   That's where I got stuck.  Nowhere else in the game or even in the Temple did I have to jump over anything to complete a puzzle.   I got stuck, figured out what to do, facepalmed and finished the Path.  Life moved on, and I knew at the time that I didn't have to take this route.  Sometimes I make things in my mind more complicated than they are and I was overthinking it.  <shrug>

 

 I'm not stressing it, nor do I agree very much with Rawgrim here.  I was only trying to point out that there was some basis to what he was saying, and wasn't pulling it out all of thin air.

[o Ventus]

Not really, no. None of the choices you make have any negative outcome for you or the inquisition. And a bad choice made by you never strengthens your enemy. So what if you leave Hawke or Stroud? Nothing comes of it. One is dead the other isn't. You don't lose any support or power based on any choice you make.

 

Okay? How is this a problem with Inquisition? "One is dead the other isn't" IS the consequence, that's the entire idea of the choice. Why would leaving Hawke or Stroud/Loghain/Alistair behind cost you power or influence, in the context of the choice?

 

 

 

 

And come on. And old wizard wanting to become a god so he can rule the world? That is arguably the biggest clichè in fantasy. He doesn't even do anything. You pick apart every one of his plans, one by one, and he just sits there. He doesn't counter your actions or strike back at all. What is heroic about fighting someone who doesn't fight back? That is called being a bully, not a hero.

 

When you oversimplify his motivation like that, yeah it looks pretty bad. But that applies when you oversimplify anything, so it isn't like it means much.

 

 

 

It is a button mashing hack and slash game. Simply because tactics is not needed.

 

Tactics also aren't needed for DAO, but I doubt you'd call that a button mashing hack n' slash.

 

 

 

Every fight in the game can be won by just button mashing.

 

And you can win fights in DAO by engaging combat and letting the AI kill everything; the player isn't even necessary. I guess by your token DAO would be an interactive movie.

 

 

 

Missed all the jumping puzzles, did you? Try getting all the shards etc.

 

Again:

 

 

 

Platforming, sure, but no puzzles that involve jumping.

[Rawgrim]

Okay? How is this a problem with Inquisition? "One is dead the other isn't" IS the consequence, that's the entire idea of the choice. Why would leaving Hawke or Stroud/Loghain/Alistair behind cost you power or influence, in the context of the choice?

 

 

 

 

 

When you oversimplify his motivation like that, yeah it looks pretty bad. But that applies when you oversimplify anything, so it isn't like it means much.

 

 

 

 

Tactics also aren't needed for DAO, but I doubt you'd call that a button mashing hack n' slash.

 

 

 

 

And you can win fights in DAO by engaging combat and letting the AI kill everything. I guess by your token DAO would be an interactive movie.

 

 

 

 

Again:

 

The only consequence is for the fellow who croaks. Not the inquisition or the inquisitor.

Seriously? Nobody would remove the support from you if you leave the champion of Kirkwall to die? Or Loghain, one of the biggest heroes in Ferelden history? Surely someone would react negatively to that and decide not to support you anymore?

 

Its hard not to oversimplify it when it is simplified in the game itself. He could at least have attacked one of my keeps. Or tried to send some assassins to kill me or whoever else. Blackmail someone in the inquisition. Just...something. The is a phrase that goes something like this "The strength of the protagonist is measured by the threat of the antagonist". Given the passive state of Cory, the inquisitor is pretty much a wuss.

 

DA:O has auto attack. It has the radial menu. It has a tactics screen where you can set up what your companions are to do during fights. None of these require any button mashing.

 

Play DA:O on hard. Let the AI do everything, and put it up on youtube. Lets see how far you get. I bet spiders and marbari might prove difficult when they overwhelm you. The dragons and the broodmother too.

 

 

The Mythal temple puzzle required jumping.

[PhroXenGold]

You know, I'm starting to think that for many people, DA:I falls into a kind of "uncanny valley" of game design, in the sense of being almost but not quite like Origins is far worse than not being like Origins at all. Because while some things have changed compared to DA:O, they're still fundamentally very similar games, the changes are really minor on an overall scale.

[Il Divo]

More like killing what the franchise used to be, and changing it into something else. Just because it has the logo doesn't mean its DA. DA used to be about story, choices and consequences. Now it is about button mashing, fetch quests, and jumping puzzles.

 

Honestly, I'm still curious about all the choices and consequences that DA:O (and older Bioware games) are known for. Because for the life of me, I still haven't seen anything that isn't mostly confined either to a single story arc itself or simply condensed into an epilogue slide. 

 

I'm still used to the Bioware style of making a final choice in the last hour of play, when the game doesn't have to address it. 

[Farangbaa]

More like a puzzle, that required you to jump here and there to complete it.

What? If you need jumps, you're doing it wrong.

[Innsmouth Dweller]

(...)

Play DA:O on hard. Let the AI do everything, and put it up on youtube. Lets see how far you get. I bet spiders and marbari might prove difficult when they overwhelm you. The dragons and the broodmother too.

 

 

The Mythal temple puzzle required jumping.

one or two jumps perhaps to transfer to another titleset, but far from platformer experience shards provided (ugh).

 

i don't think the difficulty is the issue, it's time consuming mechanics with absolutely no variety that makes the whole combat experience boring and tedious. i mean, how long can you fight one mob with one or two skills? in action mode or in tactical (cough, worthless, cough) mode - one misstep and you have to repeat last hour or so - doing exactly the same 8skill button mash over and over and over and...

imho DA:O was easier, because it allowed me to actually use strategy and tactical mode, battles were quick (long planning, fast execution) and interesting cuz most of the hostile NPCs had different builds.

 

i am no strategist mastermind or whatever, just a person with terrible hand-eye coordination and thus eternal hatred towards action-oriented experience 

[Il Divo]

one or two jumps perhaps to transfer to another titleset, but far from platformer experience shards provided (ugh).

 

i don't think the difficulty is the issue, it's time consuming mechanics with absolutely no variety that makes the whole combat experience boring and tedious. i mean, how long can you fight one mob with one or two skills? in action mode or in tactical (cough, worthless, cough) mode - one misstep and you have to repeat last hour or so - doing exactly the same 8skill button mash over and over and over and...

imho DA:O was easier, because it allowed me to actually use strategy and tactical mode, battles were quick (long planning, fast execution) and interesting cuz most of the hostile NPCs had different builds.

 

i am no strategist mastermind or whatever, just a person with terrible hand-eye coordination and thus eternal hatred towards action-oriented experience 

 

I definitely think DA:O is better, but the over emphasis on auto attack is not something which just Inquisition suffers from. More abilities by necessity makes combat more dynamic b/c even after you have exhausted certain skills, you just switch over to a different one. This is another frustrating aspect of low level gameplay that can be seen as early as BG. Want to play a Wizard? Level 1, cast a spell, and use your slingshot autoattack unless you happen to have a wand on you. 

 

It's also why I love high level DA:O play as an Arcane Warrior b/c at high levels, any hardy foe I can kill with just spells (since I still have a crap ton of mana) and any basic darkspawn mooks will die in a matter of seconds to basic autoattack, potentially triggering the awesome execution animations. 

[KaiserShep]

And come on. And old wizard wanting to become a god so he can rule the world? That is arguably the biggest clichè in fantasy.

 

While it's not quite as simple as that, I'd say that it has a bit more intrigue than a big evil dragon whose only motivation is to f**k everything up with a horde of darkspawn at its command.

 

The only consequence is for the fellow who croaks. Not the inquisition or the inquisitor.

Seriously? Nobody would remove the support from you if you leave the champion of Kirkwall to die? Or Loghain, one of the biggest heroes in Ferelden history? Surely someone would react negatively to that and decide not to support you anymore?

 

Aside from there being no reason for anyone or any faction of significance to get up in arms about this, it's not even the Inquisitor that's responsible for what happened, but rather the Grey Wardens, who caused all this mess in the first place. Why would anyone get all upset over Loghain being lost in the Fade? The man was branded a traitor by the Fereldens, and basically went underground because the Grey Warden suckers were hunting him down. If the Warden can cut his head off without issue, I doubt letting him take one for the team after disappearing for a while is going to fare any worse. The Champion of Kirkwall was either a supporter of the rebellion or was ousted by corrupted Templars.

[Zeratulr]

Dumbing the games down so much you don't even recognize what franchise it is supposed to be, is killing it. Just because it has huge sales doesn't make it a good product.

I guess it depends on your definition of a "good product". If a good product is what you like (and anything you don't like is not a good product) than you are right. The other approach is that a good product is anything that gives its creators an opportunity to continue their work and make some new games. In that case you are wrong and sales are the only thing that makes a great product. Please believe me, I can totally understand the first definition. I used to be a Fallout fanatic when the unspeakable horror of Fallout 3 happened. I felt betrayed and hated people who were responsible. Then I realized that many critics liked it and sales were huge. To this day it's hard for me to repress rage when I stumble upon somebody saying that he can't wait for Fallout 4 to be released. But facts are facts: horrible game, great product.

These days I actually feel incredibly lucky because the wonderful product of DA:I happens to be a great game.

[Rawgrim]

While it's not quite as simple as that, I'd say that it has a bit more intrigue than a big evil dragon whose only motivation is to f**k everything up with a horde of darkspawn at its command.

 

 

Aside from there being no reason for anyone or any faction of significance to get up in arms about this, it's not even the Inquisitor that's responsible for what happened, but rather the Grey Wardens, who caused all this mess in the first place. Why would anyone get all upset over Loghain being lost in the Fade? The man was branded a traitor by the Fereldens, and basically went underground because the Grey Warden suckers were hunting him down. If the Warden can cut his head off without issue, I doubt letting him take one for the team after disappearing for a while is going to fare any worse. The Champion of Kirkwall was either a supporter of the rebellion or was ousted by corrupted Templars.

 

DA:O had Loghain. He was the antagonist in that game, not the Archdemon. the archdemon was more or less a natural disaster you had to work towards stopping.

 

The people of Kirkwall saw Hawke as a hero. And I am sure certain nobles in the free marches might remove their support if we just leave the fellow to die etc. The point is that nobody really cares how you do things at all. Its impossible to do anything that gives you any form of a negative consequence in this game.

[Il Divo]

I guess it depends on your definition of a "good product". If a good product is what you like (and anything you don't like is not a good product) than you are right. The other approach is that a good product is anything that gives its creators an opportunity to continue their work and make some new games. In that case you are wrong and sales are the only thing that makes a great product. Please believe me, I can totally understand the first definition. I used to be a Fallout fanatic when the unspeakable horror of Fallout 3 happened. I felt betrayed and hated people who were responsible. Then I realized that many critics liked it and sales were huge. To this day it's hard for me to repress rage when I stumble upon somebody saying that he can't wait for Fallout 4 to be released. But facts are facts: horrible game, great product.

These days I actually feel incredibly lucky because the wonderful product of DA:I happens to be a great game.

 

It's odd too in the sense that having fewer fans, depending on whom you speak to, is looked on as a positive, making one part of a select group.  

 

This again makes me wonder about Shattered Steel, Bioware's first ever game. I doubt more people like Shattered Steel than they did BG1. Was BG1 looked upon as main stream at the time? 

[Rawgrim]

What? If you need jumps, you're doing it wrong.

 

Try doing the puzzles in the Mythal temple without jumping, then get back to me.

[GeorgP]

Yeah I'd like a source for this as well. To my knowledge Bioware was a succesful independent gaming developer before EA bought them.

Boware was sold by their Major investor Elevation Partners, which was the majority share holder back then. Bioware's founders itself never had any intent to sell their company.