33 réponses à ce sujet

[JasonShepard]

You mean that after picking Control then I'm a god? A bona-fide god?! Mwa-ha-ha-ha. Mwaa-Ha-Ha-Ha! MWHAAA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!!!

 

*Coughs* Uh, excuse me...

 

(More serious answer:)

I'm being picky, but you haven't really defined a god there - Control Shepard isn't going to be all-powerful and all-knowing, they're just going to be damn close. They're still going to be trapped by time and the laws of physics like the rest of us... although they will of course be functionally immortal.

 

That said, I agree that Control Shepard has processing power up the wazoo, though I guess it depends on how the Reapers work as to whether or not that counts as a 3rd level extelligence. (If the Reapers are actually just unthinking tools, despite every indication otherwise, then Control-Shep can't really network with them.)

 

I disagree that all this means Control Shepard would have zero concern for others. We are talking about a super-intelligence based on a human, so it's kinda difficult to accurately predict what they'd do. I do feel that, at least initially, the basic human instincts would remain - empathy, guilt, caring, all that stuff. With time, yes, the Shepard-AI would probably grow less concerned about the rest of us - just because we're so damn small compared to it - but that's probably for the best. I don't want a super-intelligence taking an active roll in mediating my life.

 

Best case scenario? Control-Shepard sees this coming and leaves the galaxy to go do his/her stuff elsewhere.

 

Worst case scenario? Control-Shepard stops caring about us, and tramples us whenever we get in the way of what the local super-intelligence is doing...

[Han Shot First]

In Control the real Shepard has died, and the entity that replaces the Catalyst is just an A.I. that mimics Shepard's personality. It's basically the Shepard VI on steroids. It is no god however. 

[CrutchCricket]

In Control the real Shepard has died, and the entity that replaces the Catalyst is just an A.I. that mimics Shepard's personality. It's basically the Shepard VI on steroids. It is no god however.

Sigh... Even three years later, there's gotta be at least one. Check the Sig, all I'm gonna say.

Alleyd, I will reply here on by PM (also to our other discussion) later.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Thank you based Shreaper.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The problem with the idea of a reaper being "billions of organic minds uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies" is that I never could buy it. Once the body and brain were ground up into hamburger it was dead. Is hamburger alive?

 

 

The reaper consciousness is merely a VI computer installed in the machine doing what the Catalyst tells it to do. The Catalyst controls the reapers. They are its solution. The DNA of the race is inside the facsimile model of the race preserved like marmalade. Marmalade Theory. That is the way I see it. I know it's supposed to be lore, but sometimes, or rather in many cases mass effect universe lore doesn't make any sense.

 

In essence, this doesn't make much sense. If these sentient machines were so valuable as catalogs of past cycles, why put them on the front lines where they could be destroyed? Why not simply make machines to harvest and store this stuff in archives that to be left behind in dark space? Was it to make it so that we would feel that we were really the bad guys fighting the good guys in the end?

 

In the Control ending I see Shepard uploading her mind to replace that of the Catalyst, then interface and control the tens of thousands of reaper minds. The Original Ending left things much more open, but the explanation of the ending in the Extended Cut slammed the door on any speculation over what the Control Ending actually is. Shepard now through its reaper eyes will watch over the many, and defend the many from those who would oppose them, and keep a watchful eye over those who survived.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 ^ I think the point is not that all the people who got harvested are "still alive." Nope, they are long gone, no question about that.

 

Rather, the Reaper is a new life-form/individual entirely, but it holds onto all the "essential" information of those that went into creating it -- knowledge, memories, beliefs. The physical form of the people harvested is done away with because it is not considered important. It may even be considered one of the prime reasons why organics cannot outlast their machine creations.

 

As an analogy, every Reaper is basically like Legion: many minds, one identity.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Also...

 

In essence, this doesn't make much sense. If these sentient machines were so valuable as catalogs of past cycles, why put them on the front lines where they could be destroyed? Why not simply make machines to harvest and store this stuff in archives that to be left behind in dark space? Was it to make it so that we would feel that we were really the bad guys fighting the good guys in the end?

 

... I think the Catalyst is seeking an end where the Reapers can stop being used for that purpose, and instead, to share what they have preserved and create things.

[SHARXTREME]

Descended or Negative A forced and destructive synthesis of a captive Chaotic or Quantum Extelligence Consensus contained within the form of an Ordered Component (Reaper) operating in the Static Consensus of a singular Intelligence (Catalyst).

Ascended. This is a cooperative fusion between the Extelligences of an Augmented Ordered form, with a chaotic organic form. This combination removes the weaknesses of the seperate halves and reinforces the strenths at the same time. This is the perfect state for Extelligence:- balanced. The consensuses these beings form possess the most potential for Extelligence Evolution  and Consensus growth and the webs are the most robust
 

"Ascended Consensus" is what Reapers think of themselves.

In reality they are controlled and imprisoned by their own "problem solver" (Catalyst) and there is no consensus anyway.

Reapers are merely a death machines made to store destroyed civilisations.

 

Ascended is the description of Synthesis ending, but could Reapers in such state/form even balance out with all others.

What happens to Catalyst AI in that mix? 

 

Control ending is nothing like you described. Shepard simply replaces Catalyst as "better" "solution" to artificial problem. 

[Uncle Jo]

 ^ I think the point is not that all the people who got harvested are "still alive." Nope, they are long gone, no question about that.

 

Rather, the Reaper is a new life-form/individual entirely, but it holds onto all the "essential" information of those that went into creating it -- knowledge, memories, beliefs. The physical form of the people harvested is done away with because it is not considered important. It may even be considered one of the prime reasons why organics cannot outlast their machine creations.

 

As an analogy, every Reaper is basically like Legion: many minds, one identity.

No. Legion never was "one identity". Never. A consensus of different point of views in one physical platform. Before the "Does this unit have a soul?" cr*p, that is.

 

You're referring to what Legion said about Sovereign in ME2: "Many minds, one will". And that's something completely different.

[Uncle Jo]

Also...

 

 

... I think the Catalyst is seeking an end where the Reapers can stop being used for that purpose, and instead, to share what they have preserved and create things.

Lol. By resetting the galaxy every 50K years and condemning it to repeat the same mistakes againg and again and again...

[teh DRUMPf!!]

No. Legion never was "one identity". Never. A consensus of different point of views in one physical platform. Before the "Does this unit have a soul?" cr*p, that is.

 

You're referring to what Legion said about Sovereign in ME2: "Many minds, one will". And that's something completely different.

 

Apologies. It has been so long since I've played.

 

So more like the geth/Legion after adapting the upgrade -- all the individually non-sentient programs forming individuals.

 

Except with the Reaper, each "program" (an uploaded organic mind) is more complex.

 

Lol. By resetting the galaxy every 50K years and condemning it to repeat the same mistakes againg and again and again...

 

Well he was probably expecting the solution to come from his own findings/handiwork, not from us.

[SHARXTREME]

Apologies. It has been so long since I've played.

 

So more like the geth/Legion after adapting the upgrade -- all the individually non-sentient programs forming individuals.

 

Except with the Reaper, each "program" (an uploaded organic mind) is more complex.

 

 

Well he was probably expecting the solution to come from his own findings/handiwork, not from us.

Reapers (with the Catalyst factor) are closer to what Borg are in Star Trek, controlled collective mind upgraded with each harvested/assimilated species or individual. Catalyst could as well said: "I am the One that is many"  or "I am the Reaper Collective" instead "Reapers are part of me" "I control the Reapers".

It is practically the same, difference is semantic.

 

Before we know what Catalyst is though Reapers sound like a species where each individual Reaper is a collective mind.  

[SwobyJ]

There is no god.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

There is no god.

 

[CrutchCricket]

I can finally chip in. First off, excellent points alleyd, most of what you said is in line with what I was thinking about control, you just pulled more sources than I did.

 

A few things about the OP and the subject in general. First off as you already noticed, the first thing that was attacked in your argument was the concept of "god" (and putting it in all caps didn't help lol). You explained why you used it and I've used the word as shorthand myself in the past. But perhaps to avoid further derailing, let's just say the control entity is an ascended (or transcended if you prefer) being with a cosmic perspective that might well be considered a god by creatures of lesser or more limited perspective. I prefer the "cosmic perspective" shorthand myself because even if it's not technically accurate it denotes the scale of the entity's perception relative to our own narrow terrestrial view.

 

Secondly in addition to my own thread on the matter (link in sig) which presents a more philosophical argument for the cosmic perspective and the indifference it breeds, I'd like to point those interested in this topic to another post I've found fascinating regarding the estimated intelligence of one Reaper. This basically aligns with your Transcended Extelligence already. Of course the model in its entirety only applies to ME1-2 Reapers. Once they introduce the holokid it all goes out the window. One of the many, many reasons I am driven to violence at the mere thought of that abomination.

 

Now to some other replies:

 

I disagree that all this means Control Shepard would have zero concern for others. We are talking about a super-intelligence based on a human, so it's kinda difficult to accurately predict what they'd do. I do feel that, at least initially, the basic human instincts would remain - empathy, guilt, caring, all that stuff. With time, yes, the Shepard-AI would probably grow less concerned about the rest of us - just because we're so damn small compared to it - but that's probably for the best.

What matters isn't what it's based on but what it is. The perspective, the scale alone would alienate it from us (and us from it) sooner rather than later. Image you're an ant, among other ants and suddenly you get uplifted to human. You might try to still hang with your ant buddies, but it won't fly. Their entire world is a mound of dust to you. And as a human you have far more interesting things to check out, things that if you tried to explain to ants, they'd just look at you funny. What's more is even emotionally the connections would fail. Especially emotionally.

 

"I'm tired of Earth, these people. Tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives." Dr. Manhattan, a character created solely to explore this very point.

 

That being said, an entity as vast as what we're describing may perceive time completely differently from us, maybe to the point of irrelevance. So "eventually" may be a few microseconds from now.

 

In essence, this doesn't make much sense. If these sentient machines were so valuable as catalogs of past cycles, why put them on the front lines where they could be destroyed? Why not simply make machines to harvest and store this stuff in archives that to be left behind in dark space? Was it to make it so that we would feel that we were really the bad guys fighting the good guys in the end?

 

In the Control ending I see Shepard uploading her mind to replace that of the Catalyst, then interface and control the tens of thousands of reaper minds. The Original Ending left things much more open, but the explanation of the ending in the Extended Cut slammed the door on any speculation over what the Control Ending actually is. Shepard now through its reaper eyes will watch over the many, and defend the many from those who would oppose them, and keep a watchful eye over those who survived.

If we can steel our stomachs and actually be charitable to the holokid's bull and accept its "preservation" angle at face value it may be that it means to preserve organic life itself as some kind of life as opposed to just preserving their information. So making each race the active component of active entities somehow accomplishes this.

 

One idea I've had recently, is what if the preserved remains of the races aren't just tonnes of organic jelly? Granted I don't have much to support this so it might be a cool "what if" more than a plausible interpretation (certainly started that way). But what if the jelly, for lack of a better word still had some level of consciousness? Each Reaper could not only use it for their purposes but actually be running an internal virtual environment, a private "afterlife" where the preserved races still play out a simulation of their former lives. What if, in other words, each Reaper was an individual Matrix running a virtual reality of the races at their peak? It would certainly lend credence to the Reapers' role as preservers, it would harken back to Sovereign "at the peak of their civilization they are extinguished" and it would actually create a dilemma to both their destruction and continued survival (apart from our own interests). Is it better to let these simulations run in mockery of the lives they took? Or is silencing them actually removing them permanently from the universe and thus creating a bigger loss?  Is some existence, even a fake one, preferable to oblivion?

 

This idea I actually had as yet another replacement to the bullshit ending we got. What if when Shepard's about to activate the Crucible the notHolokid reveals that the cycle was already lost eons ago and this is just a simulation of their final moments? Do you let the simulation continue and preserve some semblance of what was lost? Or do you end it all in defiance and finally put it to rest? I don't think it'd be particularly well received by some and it does have some of the same problems as the current ending (invalidation of choices, last second asspull). But it'd be far more interesting a twist, a more difficult and debatable moral dilemma and, dare I say it, possessing more... art as well

 

I always lolled at "Marmalade Theory" I prefer to call it "Soup" Theory myself. Organic life being blended down into soup to build a Reaper.

 

Why would they do this? My thinking is that the base genetic or protein code of Extelligent organics is a data store in itself; an extremely efficient one; able to perform far more complex data manipulation than binary based data handling machines. Look at human beings. The genome of a human is around 3.2 Billion base pairs or 3.2GB operating at the time cycle of organic chemistry (IIRC its around 4 cycles per millisecond, but its been a while since I checked that figure). Compared with data processing machine components, we are far less complex and exceptionally slow

 

The only solution to that is that somewhere in that organic soup of proteins are codes that make us extremely advanced data processing devices and valuable to a cybernetic organism.

Organic computing. It's a thing. Theorized to have a similar advantage to quantum computing in the sense that the base unit (a molecule, say) will have more than two possible states and thus be more powerful simply because it's not limited to binary.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

@Clutchcricket - Are you saying that human aspic might be sentient? Each reaper contains the screaming memories of billions panicking as they were ground up and liquified into their puree.

 

The races that made up the reapers died long ago.

 

Or if there was no control signal, would there be a grudge match between reapers? Would they turn on each other for harvesting each other?

[CrutchCricket]

@Clutchcricket - Are you saying that human aspic might be sentient? Each reaper contains the screaming memories of billions panicking as they were ground up and liquified into their puree.

Well that wouldn't be much of a preservation, now would it? I said this is more of a what if, but if we assume some simulation is occurring to keep the er... jelly consciousness engaged, it'd be like the Matrix, set at the peak of their civilzation, running on a loop. And in the hypothetical where this was the twist of ME our simulation ran astray because the Chosen One (Shepard) has been ****** with it for three games and so they were forced to simulate the cycle ending to keep the illusion going. But that last part is obviously just mental toying with the idea.
 

The races that made up the reapers died long ago.
 
Or if there was no control signal, would there be a grudge match between reapers? Would they turn on each other for harvesting each other?

Sure. I get the feeling it'd be pointless to argue this.

Since the Reapers we talk to don't spout off the holokid's bullshit I think it's safe to assume some level of autonomous independence. Which would mean base parameters regarding the harvest are coded at the system level and so no, they wouldn't turn on each other. I'm trying not to think of the holokid actively micromanaging his killbots. It's how I stay sane.

[CrutchCricket]

Regards the organic jelly, Marmalade or soup aspect of creating a Reaper. I don't believe that sentience or personality etc survives the process and there would be no benefit to the system to keep it. They are operating not at an individual level but entire species level and  organic concerns about the sanctity of life would not be relevant to them.

 

The reapers might organic material and construct a form of hybrid Organic-Quantum processor, but I have doubts here as well. There would be inevitable decay and entropy built into the organic component that would have to be replenished and no exact match of the material would be available.

 

The Reapers only reap Extelligent races and the genetic codes built in the evolution of all species will be far more evolved and complex codes than could be generated or created by any other process. The processing components would be best constructed from synthetic material, but the codes that guide it's behavior and intellectual power would use organic Extelligence routines; or a digitized version of them to be most efficient

 

Would there be a grudge between reapers without control? They could resolve things without violence in their network and have probably gone beyond conflict. With no need for resources themselves; no competition.

It's not about the sanctity of life it's taking the preservation doctrine to a more literal level. Keeping the jelly conscious (however the hell you'd even define that) and running a simulation of its former life is obviously of no benefit to the Reaper. But preserving information isn't the same as preserving life. I'm trying to play ball with that holokid puke here.

 

Replacement might actually be an intrinsic reason for my simulation idea. Again let's rip off the Matrix. People still bone in the simulation and babies still get produced (though in the real world of course it's the machines doing everything). Obviously the idea is not directly transferable since this is jelly we're talking about. But if we assume some biobabble of remixing jelly to produce different jelly... Ok I know it's utter nonsense, but honestly it's no worse than what we have.

 

Your last points remind me of something else I wanted to mention. Reapers as they are, and as crazy advanced as they are if the post I linked is accurate is all well and good... until you realize they've never had to evolve/upgrade themselves. Think about it. They control their environment perfectly, they are perfectly suited to their task. But in control that task is done. And the new control entity, unrestrained by the previous nonsense purpose is going to change and upgrade according to whatever it ends up doing. Now throw all that processing power behind those upgrades. The rate will be astronomical. If it wasn't a god, sorry, cosmic being when it started, it sure as hell won't take long before it is one for real.

[God]

There is no god.

 

To hell with you heathen.