339 réponses à ce sujet

[cindercatz]

The Devs are stuck between corporate and the users. Corporate execs aren't even located near the studio nor are they interested in users or user opinions–they are totally disconnected from everything. There's no way to easily reach a corporate exec and complain; they don't want to hear from users. So the devs end up with the flak. Originally, BioWare was an independent developer that was published by EA. Now they are a wholly owned division, totally under EA control. The people that EA execs listen to? Shareholders.

 

Here's an interesting article/opinion on 'corporate culture,' Is capitalism killing games?     Creativity vs. money

 

“I'd say it's more of a capitalism trend, which means all those companies need growth. If you're a public company you need to have constant growth and you need to conquer more territory, and the day you're not, your shareholders bail.”

 

http://www.gamesindu...e-world-lanning

Capitalism kills everything. But anyway, great post.

[Balek-Vriege]

I'm more and more convinced that Bioware has a negative confirmation bias problem due to their EA affiliation among "fans."  It got even worse after DA2 followed by the ME3 ending (which did have issues).  I see so many double standards in the critique of Bioware RPGs, which is really really harsh, compared to other developers/publishers that essentially have the same issues/drawbacks in their games or corporate/marketing machinations, but are treated with red carpets and kid gloves.  It's getting to the point of being clearly hypocritical and many arguments are completly over the top or just emotionally driven without too many facts behind them.  It's more about Evil EA vs. Company that "truly" listens, than anything really wrong with Bioware products.

 

That's how you end up with 0/10 metacritic scores with "political" reasons or no reasons but "this game sucks," by people who would be the first ones to lash out at someone ranking the game a fair  7-9/10 as it should be, with clear reasons why it is 7-9/10.

 

Plus these days it seems to be popular to just be against something for the sake of being against it and as loud as possible doing so.

[didjamom]

simply because they do not respect us

[Nefla]

I'm more and more convinced that Bioware has a negative confirmation bias problem due to their EA affiliation among "fans."  It got even worse after DA2 followed by the ME3 ending (which did have issues).  I see so many double standards in the critique of Bioware RPGs, which is really really harsh, compared to other developers/publishers that essentially have the same issues/drawbacks in their games or corporate/marketing machinations, but are treated with red carpets and kid gloves.  It's getting to the point of being clearly hypocritical and many arguments are completly over the top or just emotionally driven without too many facts behind them.  It's more about Evil EA vs. Company that "truly" listens, than anything really wrong with Bioware products.

 

That's how you end up with 0/10 metacritic scores with "political" reasons or no reasons but "this game sucks," by people who would be the first ones to lash out at someone ranking the game a fair  7-9/10 as it should be, with clear reasons why it is 7-9/10.

 

Plus these days it seems to be popular to just be against something for the sake of being against it and as loud as possible doing so.

I agree that the people who say the game is "worthless" or rate it 1/10 or something are being ridiculous and needlessly vicious. However, not everyone who had criticisms about the game was "being against it for the sake of being against it," making things up, using double standards, etc...Some of us reasonably laid out what we liked and didn't like, how it would have worked better in our opinion, what could have been done to make us like the game more,  gave examples of elements and execution from previous BioWare games and other company's games that we either missed or would have preferred, etc...Just because there are unreasonable crazy people spewing hate and insults doesn't invalidate the criticisms of those who found the game lacking.

[In Exile]

"and then there's things like that slap in the face refuse-ending in Mass Effect"

 

lol

The thing is, people asked for it on the forums. There are lots of things to criticize ME3 over re: the ending, but refuse was specifically requested by a bunch of fans. 

[wolfhowwl]

The thing is, people asked for it on the forums. There are lots of things to criticize ME3 over re: the ending, but refuse was specifically requested by a bunch of fans. 

 

I know. It's a valid request and should have been in there from the beginning. For roleplaying reasons the player should be able to refuse in that scenario even if it means losing.

 

Unfortunately it seems some people wanted to be able to refuse and win, bypassing the ending dilemma. That wasn't going to happen.

[In Exile]

I know. It's a valid request and should have been in there from the beginning. For roleplaying reasons the player should be able to refuse in that scenario even if it means losing.

 

Unfortunately it seems some people wanted to be able to refuse and win, bypassing the ending dilemma. That wasn't going to happen.

 

I can understand why those people felt that it was a take-that by the developers. I just don't think it's far to really criticize them on it since they were trying to do right by some fans. 

[Balek-Vriege]

I agree that the people who say the game is "worthless" or rate it 1/10 or something are being ridiculous and needlessly vicious. However, not everyone who had criticisms about the game was "being against it for the sake of being against it," making things up, using double standards, etc...Some of us reasonably laid out what we liked and didn't like, how it would have worked better in our opinion, what could have been done to make us like the game more,  gave examples of elements and execution from previous BioWare games and other company's games that we either missed or would have preferred, etc...Just because there are unreasonable crazy people spewing hate and insults doesn't invalidate the criticisms of those who found the game lacking.

 

Very true and I have critiques of my own etc.  I was mostly referring to those that seem to go out of their way to be disrespectful in their critiques (really just rants).  Or those that are very strong on the hyperbole and very loose on the facts.  

[rda]

Very true and I have critiques of my own etc.  I was mostly referring to those that seem to go out of their way to be disrespectful in their critiques (really just rants).  Or those that are very strong on the hyperbole and very loose on the facts.  

Some of the Bioware staff occassionally seem to have went out of their way to be disrespectful and snarky as well. I'm not saying two wrongs make a right, but it's not like the staff were this ever-tolerant, kind bunch of people either.

It's almost like a lot of the Bioware personnel don't know who they are. To a lot of fans, they're like professional sports players or something. They're paid (very well-at least at the top levels) to do something the average fan would offer to do for free. And just like pro sports players, they're going to have hateful things said to them by malcontents who are essentially jealous. But instead of shrugging those comments off a lot of them seem to fixate on those comments unduly and label the entire fan base as hateful and capricious.

It's almost like they want 100% of the fan base to kiss their butts before they deign to interact with us.

[Bfler]

The thing is, people asked for it on the forums. There are lots of things to criticize ME3 over re: the ending, but refuse was specifically requested by a bunch of fans. 

 

I would rather say, they asked for the red ending with Shepards speech from refuse.

[Lumix19]

Some of the Bioware staff occassionally seem to have went out of their way to be disrespectful and snarky as well. I'm not saying two wrongs make a right, but it's not like the staff were this ever-tolerant, kind bunch of people either.
It's almost like a lot of the Bioware personnel don't know who they are. To a lot of fans, they're like professional sports players or something. They're paid (very well-at least at the top levels) to do something the average fan would offer to do for free. And just like pro sports players, they're going to have hateful things said to them by malcontents who are essentially jealous. But instead of shrugging those comments off a lot of them seem to fixate on those comments unduly and label the entire fan base as hateful and capricious.
It's almost like they want 100% of the fan base to kiss their butts before they deign to interact with us.

I think they would settle for just civility really. Sadly many on these forums don't know the meaning of the word.

[Paul E Dangerously]

As I'm sure people have pointed out, "but they worked hard on it!" only goes so far. There are a portion of us - on every platform - that feels they received a broken product that does not function properly even after five months of patching. Look how much support the old gen gamers have gotten in the thread in the Feedback board - one post that boiled down to "pipe down", and another that was defending creative decisions, not anything to do with the state of the game.

 

Respect has to be earned. It's a little hard when you're sitting at a product that you paid full price for, and that all intents and purposes is a lemon.

[Quaddis]

I'm more and more convinced that Bioware has a negative confirmation bias problem due to their EA affiliation among "fans."  It got even worse after DA2 followed by the ME3 ending (which did have issues). 

 

Saying that Mass Effect ending had issues is like saying that someone dropped firecracker at Hiroshima and ended WWII.

[rda]

I think they would settle for just civility really. Sadly many on these forums don't know the meaning of the word.

Ha. There's plenty of people on here capable of behaving nicely and civilly. But if you ONLY post on extremely controversial topics and do so in such a manner that ignores fan complaints and only justifies your decisions, the result isn't going to be overwhelmingly positive.

The deve could go into the individual character threads and post some insights about the characters and people would be over the moon. Instead they just post stuff like "PC controls are just fine" and then when people don't agree, they never come back again.

[Frybread76]

I respect the devs as people, but my respect for their design of games, storytelling, etc. isn't a given.  They have to put out something I enjoy for me to respect their work as devs.  DA:I was good, but it wasn't great.  And the DLC was good, but it wasn't worth $14.99, IMO.  I'm not too mad about it, but I hope we get something more substantial in the future that actually furthers or adds to the main narrative with the Elven gods, etc.

[LinksOcarina]

I know. It's a valid request and should have been in there from the beginning. For roleplaying reasons the player should be able to refuse in that scenario even if it means losing.

 

Unfortunately it seems some people wanted to be able to refuse and win, bypassing the ending dilemma. That wasn't going to happen.

 

What the hell did people expect though? I knew if they added that refuse ending we would not win in-game by Shepard's hands, because the developers said they weren't changing the set up to that ending.

 

And they still didn't change it either, which I am grateful for that they didn't cave into all of the requests sent their way.

 

As to the main question, i'm rather curious about something. Do the developers have to mutually respect their fanbase?

 

After all, it is a two-way street in the end. If people tend to not leave good feedback (and despite bits like the reddit threads and some twitter moments, most people don't leave good feedback, they leave demands.) then why should the developers care about the feelings of their fanbase?

 

An interesting, almost circular predicament really. Personally I find such discussions kind of silly, you either buy the game or you don't, liking or respecting the people playing or making the game is very superfluous in the end. But it does make me wonder sometimes...why does BioWare even bother?

 

Seriously, I have never seen a developer bend over backwards to please their fanbase, only to have the fanbase make topics like this...

[XEternalXDreamsX]

What the hell did people expect though? I knew if they added that refuse ending we would not win in-game by Shepard's hands, because the developers said they weren't changing the set up to that ending.

And they still didn't change it either, which I am grateful for that they didn't cave into all of the requests sent their way.

As to the main question, i'm rather curious about something. Do the developers have to mutually respect their fanbase?

After all, it is a two-way street in the end. If people tend to not leave good feedback (and despite bits like the reddit threads and some twitter moments, most people don't leave good feedback, they leave demands.) then why should the developers care about the feelings of their fanbase?

An interesting, almost circular predicament really. Personally I find such discussions kind of silly, you either buy the game or you don't, liking or respecting the people playing or making the game is very superfluous in the end. But it does make me wonder sometimes...why does BioWare even bother?

Seriously, I have never seen a developer bend over backwards to please their fanbase, only to have the fanbase make topics like this...

It is crazy how people demand things out of Bioware. Don't get me wrong but some people forget that they are putting hundreds if not thousands of manpower hours to develop their game. Their vision. Some people can request new things or constructive criticism (which I have seen). The thing is people need to accept their vision or not play, offer feedback either good or bad, and see the result of our feedback. I have seen too many donkeys claiming their way is the right way.

[SofaJockey]

... After all, it is a two-way street in the end. If people tend to not leave good feedback (and despite bits like the reddit threads and some twitter moments, most people don't leave good feedback, they leave demands.) then why should the developers care about the feelings of their fanbase?

 

An interesting, almost circular predicament really. Personally I find such discussions kind of silly, you either buy the game or you don't, liking or respecting the people playing or making the game is very superfluous in the end. But it does make me wonder sometimes...why does BioWare even bother?

 

Pretty much this.

 

BioWare makes good games, ranging from great games to good but flawed games.

There are plenty of ways to spend your money elsewhere on gaming drivel.

 

Game production is a commercial activity, BioWare produce a product for people to buy, or not.

Game production is not a fan service, because fans disagree and a fan service may not suit the overall market.

 

Any professional who delivers product of a decent standard is due a base line level of respect, that's just plain courtesy.

 

Yet on this forum, because hair isn't long enough, or because folk don't like beige pyjamas, and including some legitimate concerns:

• Devs are lazy
• Devs / BioWare are liars
• Devs / production staff are called to be fired
• I've seen calls for physical harm to be done
• And unending cynicism, rudeness and sarcasm, post after post from folk who say they no longer play because it all sucks.

Most players don't consider whether they respect the devs, they buy and play the game, that's the end of it.

 

A small sub-set of players come to forums like this one, some are pleasant, many more are very much less so.

Nothing wrong with a little constructive feedback, but I don't think the devs should feel bad or be concerned about

tuning out from the more vociferous whining, which is more a reflection on the sour personality of the poster.

 

And back to the OP, this particulary DLC (JoH) is not a story-based DLC of old,

but of the DAI regions it looks great, plays tough and is probably my favourite of the regions in the game, it's hardly worthless.

[Silcron]

Respect is something that it's gained. If anything you're entitled to be treated with a small amount of respect, which we call politeness.

Now, yes, the devs have put a lot of hours working to make that dlc. And you know who have also put time working? The consumers into getting their money, and if not the consumers directly maybe their parents, family, friends... If people are saying that the dlc is worthless that is an exagerration, what they most likely mean is that is not worth the price. There's nothing wrong with that, you have to accept when you put something for sale that people will not care about how much work you've put into it. Because they've also put a lot of work into making the money to buy the product and they naturally want something that is worth it.

The important thing when selling a product is the product. The writers for 50 Shades of Grey and Twilight also put a lot of work into their books. Are we supposed to give those books a pass because people worked on them? Should we just buy every videogame, book...out of respect to the people who made them because they put a lot of work into their products?

No, we will buy things that we think are worth our money; and if we buy something and it turns out that we think the product or service wasn't worth what we paid for we have all the rights to say so.

[Dieb]

What does respect have to do with the inclination to buy a product, or refraining from verbally abusing people?

 

Nobody has to earn the right for you to speak to them like an adult.

[Uccio]

The thing is, people asked for it on the forums. There are lots of things to criticize ME3 over re: the ending, but refuse was specifically requested by a bunch of fans. 

 

 

It is not so much about refusing and dying but refusing and fighting your way to victory. Big difference.

[SofaJockey]

It is not so much about refusing and dying but refusing and fighting your way to victory. Big difference.

 

Er, so where has it now become within the realm of 'fans' to decide how a game should be written?

The refuse ending added further choice and was quite poetic.

 

In any case, normal polite respect should have nothing to do with any particular fans desire for their version of fan fiction.

[DanAxe]

Not invalid or fanboyish at all.

 

People fail to realize that devs have a list of things they have to act according to. Like timetables, story-wise untouchables, budgets, and a lot more stuff that we dont even think about. Besides that, its EA that makes the price, not the bioware devs.

 

If people would realize that insulting and acting like pricks against the devs wont solve anything, and that making constructive criticism might go much further than we expect, we would all benefit from it.

 

You think something is not right, or could be much better? Say it so. But do it in a respectful and constructive way, and the devs might actually listen and try to work on it. If you resort to insults and nonsense criticism like "I HATE IT AND YOU ALL SHOULD DIEEEE" then obviously you'll get nothing out of the devs because all they learned from your criticism is that you have homicidal tendencies.

 

Ultimately, there's this little thing called - Research (learn about the game/dlc in the internet) and Choice (you can either buy it, or not, its your choice and you are not forced in either way. You didnt research, you bought it and you dont like it? Deal with it!).

[Lumix19]

It is not so much about refusing and dying but refusing and fighting your way to victory. Big difference.

Sounds like some people were expecting some sort of Deus Ex Machina if you refused.

[LinksOcarina]

One of the good things in the end is we now have service models that allow us to put in requests.

 

Those storage chests for Inquisition, if the game didn't have constant updates and patches, we would never get it as a new feature, it would simply be lost in the ether.

 

So people do need to realize that some games get worked on now a days to add little touches if they can.