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Why don't people respect the devs?


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#301
Iakus

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I can understand why those people felt that it was a take-that by the developers. I just don't think it's far to really criticize them on it since they were trying to do right by some fans. 

It was a take-that by the developers.  Just as shooting the Catalyst automatically triggering it was.  And I will continue to call them on it. In the end,  were only interested in doing right by the fans who already thought "the endings were okay, but..." Cosmetic changes, vague hand-waving, that's not worthy of respect.

 

But I will say the Dragon Age team has shown a far greater interest in understanding fan reaction and correcting what they can.  I don't agree with everything they did in DAI, but I at least feel like feedback was paid attention to.  That gets respect from me.


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#302
In Exile

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It was a take-that by the developers.  Just as shooting the Catalyst automatically triggering it was.  And I will continue to call them on it. In the end,  were only interested in doing right by the fans who already thought "the endings were okay, but..." Cosmetic changes, vague hand-waving, that's not worthy of respect.

 

But I will say the Dragon Age team has shown a far greater interest in understanding fan reaction and correcting what they can.  I don't agree with everything they did in DAI, but I at least feel like feedback was paid attention to.  That gets respect from me.

 

I can't agree with that part, when there was substantial support on the ME3 forums for a "refuse, but still lose" ending. If they had done it unbidden, maybe. That Bioware didn't change their ending is certainly a sign they dug in their heels, and I agree that some of the more high-level creative minds/employees were adamant there was nothing wrong with their ending, but I wouldn't say it's the same as a take-that like, say, Ninja Theory and white-haired Dante. 

 

The speech by Shepard in refuse is a pretty good one, for example. 

 

That being said, I do agree with you largely on the DA team working very hard to respond to feedback. The real test IMO will be how they handle the complaints about questing and the lack of story content (something I thought ME1 was criticized for and ME2 responded well to). 



#303
In Exile

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It is not so much about refusing and dying but refusing and fighting your way to victory. Big difference.

 

Some asked for refuse and win (i.e., me). But I was there for the ME3 ending furor, and I'm aware of all the varying views on the ending. One of them was refuse and lose. 


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#304
Bfler

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Some asked for refuse and win (i.e., me). But I was there for the ME3 ending furor, and I'm aware of all the varying views on the ending. One of them was refuse and lose. 

 

Refuse and lose is like playing DA:O with everything destroyed by the darkspawn at the end or Inquisition with the state of the world of the future mage mission as end. Who plays a game, which ends with an apocalypse?



#305
Shechinah

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(to Bfler) Surprisingly more than most would think.



#306
Nefla

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As far as treating the devs with respect, it seems like many people are confusing politeness, civility, and common courtesy with reverence. No one is saying you should bow and scrape and treat the devs like royalty, just treat them like human beings.


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#307
SnakeCode

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As far as treating the devs with respect, it seems like many people are confusing politeness, civility, and common courtesy with reverence. No one is saying you should bow and scrape and treat the devs like royalty, just treat them like human beings.

 

Yup, it goes both ways though, some people seem to think that anything less than reverence is showing disrespect to the devs. 


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#308
Guest_Ser Morwen_*

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You can't please everyone. As Cassandra once said.

 

Half of the people complaining either haven't tried it or aren't happy with the main game because it wasn't done their way (too many cities in DA2? They complain. Not enough cities in DAI? They complain), so they rant and trash something they have no true say about. Others are genuinely frustrated by the many errors, glitches and crashes in the main game and fear a DLC being made while game breaking bugs still linger is not wise.

 

I find that the sales speak for themselves, and not the voices of the few who think they make a difference in a negative way.

 

I can see both sides and understand why they like/dislike what the devs do, but I try and see it another way. If not for the devs, we'd have no game to complain over. No DA series to share and remember. If not for them and their efforts (though lacking at times) to please their fans and make compelling games, we'd never know of this amazing story and its characters. I remember that everytime I get upset at insignificant stuff. And as someone who did play the DLC, it was not only worth it, but better than the main game itself in my opinion. I love lore though, so that's why I lean to it more, but we are all different!


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#309
DarkKnightHolmes

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Sounds like some people were expecting some sort of Deus Ex Machina if you refused.

The whole ending scenario was a deus ex Machina so what's one more deus ex Machina going to hurt now?


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#310
Nefla

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The whole ending scenario was a deus ex Machina so what's one more deus ex Machina going to hurt now?

Quite literally a deus ex machina in two ways: starchild's existence and nature and the fact that it was copied from the ending of another game Deus Ex. :lol:



#311
LinksOcarina

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The whole ending scenario was a deus ex Machina so what's one more deus ex Machina going to hurt now?

 

Like most fantasy and sci-fi settings. Lord of the Rings made history with it by having eucatastrophes and flying eagles.

 

Being a deus ex machina scenario is not necessarily a bad thing either. In context of Mass Effect, it actually made sense. Plus it was closer to the more historical use of the term by having a mortal confront literal immortality, those old greek dramas man...sometimes they are poetic and perfect to use in other mediums. 



#312
Mihura

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Hum, I think most of the time people talk about a collective, like Bioware and not really one person. Respecting a person is not the same as being immune to critiques as a company. I think it is far worse, being to connect to a concept and organization and taking criticism to personally, like it is part of your identity.


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#313
Legion of 1337

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EA deserves no respect.
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#314
TheJiveDJ

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I may sound rude, but what the hell, when has that ever stopped me ... 

 

The developers aren't actually owed any respect, sure I respect them as people, I do that to everyone. But am I supposed to sing their praises because they made a game 'for me' ? They didn't do that because they love me so much, they made a product, they got paid to make that product, and then their bosses sold it to me for money. Same as any other business . They aren't protected from criticisms, especially from someone who spent their hard earned money to purchase their product .

 

Do they work hard while creating their game ? Undoubtedly. 

Are the criticisms sometimes not 'fair'? Probably. 

Does that mean they shouldn't be criticized ? **** NO!!!

Preach!!



#315
turuzzusapatuttu

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EA deserves no respect.

 

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#316
Il Divo

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Refuse and lose is like playing DA:O with everything destroyed by the darkspawn at the end or Inquisition with the state of the world of the future mage mission as end. Who plays a game, which ends with an apocalypse?

 

You'd be surprised. Personally I'm not in that camp, but I've seen more than a few people maintain that role-playing is about executing a certain character concept, not about consequences in any capacity. Usually it's brought up in regard to criticism regarding the import feature, but I suspect it's something to consider here as well.

 

I don't agree with it, but just saying it's something that people have argued for.



#317
LinksOcarina

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You'd be surprised. Personally I'm not in that camp, but I've seen more than a few people maintain that role-playing is about executing a certain character concept, not about consequences in any capacity. Usually it's brought up in regard to criticism regarding the import feature, but I suspect it's something to consider here as well.

 

I don't agree with it, but just saying it's something that people have argued for.

 

The Last of Us.

 

Completely bleak, downer ending. In fact moreso since Joel in that game becomes a full on villain in the grand scheme of things, but there you go. Folks praise it to no end for it's storytelling and ending, when I feel it was inferior to Mass Effect 3 personally when it came to the narrative.



#318
SnakeCode

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The Last of Us.

 

Completely bleak, downer ending. In fact moreso since Joel in that game becomes a full on villain in the grand scheme of things, but there you go. Folks praise it to no end for it's storytelling and ending, when I feel it was inferior to Mass Effect 3 personally when it came to the narrative.

 

:huh:

 

The ending wasn't really a downer, it was bittersweet though. Joel didn't really become a villain either, I found it to be really grey storytelling. Something  Bioware always strives to achieve but miserably fails at each game. Issues always end up being depicted as black and ehite. TLoU's ending was really poignant and done really well I thought. Joel had to make a difficult choice, and went for the selfish option that came from a place of love. He either had to make the right choice for the wrong reasons, or the "wrong" choice for the "right" reasons. Never has Bioware come close to writing something so nuanced.


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#319
KBomb

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The Last of Us.

Completely bleak, downer ending. In fact moreso since Joel in that game becomes a full on villain in the grand scheme of things, but there you go. Folks praise it to no end for it's storytelling and ending, when I feel it was inferior to Mass Effect 3 personally when it came to the narrative.


Oh, I will disagree with that. I saw Joel's choice as reflective of the direction of the narrative. The whole game we're dealing with not only the "infection" but the fallout of human nature. Joel struggles with his human nature the entire game. Always dimming the line between survival and ethics. In the end, human nature won out. Joel isn't a villain, he was just a human who made a decision where he had to choose between selflessness (ethics) or survival (human nature). Also, not going to lie-- it's the decision I would have most likely made, too. Joel was never meant to be a super hero or a Shepard. He was always a flawed human being.

YMMV though! I understand it's your opinion. I just don't think it's comparable or worse than ME3. I didn't feel ME3 was very consistent and cohesive in its narration. That's just me, though!
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#320
LinksOcarina

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:huh:

 

The ending wasn't really a downer, it was bittersweet though. Joel didn't really become a villain either, I found it to be really grey storytelling. Something  Bioware always strives to achieve but miserably fails at each game. Issues always end up being depicted as black and ehite. TLoU's ending was really poignant and done really well I thought. Joel had to make a difficult choice, and went for the selfish option that came from a place of love. He either had to make the right choice for the wrong reasons, or the "wrong" choice for the "right" reasons. Never has Bioware come close to writing something so nuanced.

 

i disagree on that. Legion's Loyalty mission in Mass Effect 2 comes to mind as a standout example. As does Mordin's and Samara's in the same game. Well, not Samara's as much but when talking with her and learning about her code and her personal ethics, we see the dilemna there.

 

I would also argue the ethical and practical ramifications of both the Tuchanka and Rannoch storylines in Mass Effect 3 as that.

 

My problem with the Last of Us in the end was more than just it's ending to be fair, I thought the game overall was quite boring and predictable, but regarding the issue at hand, Joel did the selfish choice, but throughout the game Joel is not redeemable as a person. Even when Ellie takes care of him he still has that barrier up above him, and what makes it creepier is how Joel seems to nearly project Ellie in place of his dead daughter...which did not sit well with me.

 

I get how it's supposed to be emotional, and that finding humanity in inhumane territory is a good thing. It simply didn't resonate in the end because the flipside of this, while inhumane, was not only piratical, but really logical. 

 

Then again I tend to think logically when it comes to the grand scheme of things. This may be why I had no problem with Mass Effect 3 and it's own ending on a whole.

 

And one thing that is different between say Joel and Shepard, Shepard's decisions are flawed in of themselves because you don't know what outcome will come up. Choices made in 1 and 2 influence the consequences of three heavily in that regard, including the survival of squadmates, the macro-politics surrounding your situation, and even the outcomes of some of your choices being affected or influenced by how you have behaved. Shepard is not a superhero either, you see most of his choices in that line of gray morality.

 

In The Last of Us, it i forced upon you through cutscenes moreso than actual choice. We are being told the story, which does make it smoother I grant you that, but were passive in the interaction of it. The main meat of the game, the combat and cinematic running, is very disconnected at times because of it's own narrative too. It always bothered me to see Joel brutally kill a guy attacking them, only moments later to have a conversation about how he is morally justified as a good person. 



#321
KBomb

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Even when Ellie takes care of him he still has that barrier up above him, and what makes it creepier is how Joel seems to nearly project Ellie in place of his dead daughter...which did not sit well with me.



But he didn't project Ellie onto Sarah, which was the point of the barrier in the first place. The whole point was that the love he had for Ellie grew from time and wasn't "just because she reminded him of Sarah". Of course he didn't want to lose Ellie. She had become a daughter to him. Not Sarah, but another daughter and he didn't want to lose her. It wasn't creepy at all.

It always bothered me to see Joel brutally takingkill a guy attacking them, only moments later to have a conversation about how he is morally justified as a good person.

Every person Joel killed had it coming. Every person he killed was trying to rape or murder someone-- namely him or Ellie. IIrc, you can choose to let the nurses and doctor live. How else is Joel suppose to kill them? Gently? With song? Of course it was brutal because he either had to use his hands, some sort of blunt object or a gun. Death is messy when fighting for your life.
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#322
LinksOcarina

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But he didn't project Ellie onto Sarah, which was the point of the barrier in the first place. The whole point was that the love he had for Ellie grew from time and wasn't "just because she reminded him of Sarah". Of course he didn't want to lose Ellie. She had become a daughter to him. Not Sarah, but another daughter and he didn't want to lose her. It was creepy at all.


Every person Joel killed had it coming. Every person he killed was trying to rape or murder someone-- namely him or Ellie. IIrc, you can choose to let the nurses and doctor live. How else is Joel suppose to kill them? Gently? With song? Of course it was brutal because he either had to use his hands, some sort of blunt object or a gun. Death is messy when fighting for your life.

 

I don't know, I always got the impression in the end that Joel saw her as Sarah, as if it was his second chance. It was almost living out a fantasy to the reality of the situation. He also more or less lies to Ellie in the end, which also gave me chills when I played it.

 

That last act was akin to the "No Russian" mission in "Modern Warfare 2", and the White Phosphorous moment in Spec Ops: The Line.

Moments like that are good, don't get me wrong. We need moments that skirt what it really means to be a hero in the end.

 

 But Joel is in the same camp as those games with his actions in The Last of Us, if you ask me. I can't call him heroic in any sense of the word, it plays out more like a villain. Maybe a justified, anti-hero in this case but even then that term is problematic. 



#323
KBomb

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I don't know, I always got the impression in the end that Joel saw her as Sarah, as if it was his second chance. It was almost living out a fantasy to the reality of the situation. He also more or less lies to Ellie in the end, which also gave me chills when I played it.

That last act was akin to the "No Russian" mission in "Modern Warfare 2", and the White Phosphorous moment in Spec Ops: The Line.
Moments like that are good, don't get me wrong. We need moments that skirt what it really means to be a hero in the end.

But Joel is in the same camp as those games with his actions in The Last of Us, if you ask me. I can't call him heroic in any sense of the word, it plays out more like a villain. Maybe a justified, anti-hero in this case but even then that term is problematic.


Oh god, I remember "No Russian". First time I played it, I wouldn't shoot anyone. I just walked around like a noob. Then at the end of the mission when I was shot, for a brief moment, I thought it was because I had "blown my cover" lol. That was a chilling mission, to be sure.
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#324
Iakus

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The Last of Us.

 

Completely bleak, downer ending. In fact moreso since Joel in that game becomes a full on villain in the grand scheme of things, but there you go. Folks praise it to no end for it's storytelling and ending, when I feel it was inferior to Mass Effect 3 personally when it came to the narrative.

I've never played The Last of Us, but isn't Joel a set-in-stone character?  No dialogue options?  No choices?  No multiple endings?

 

Basically you are playing the developers characters and their story.  Not like Mass Effect where we were repeatedly told WE were shaping the story, and these were OUR Shepards?



#325
KBomb

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I've never played The Last of Us, but isn't Joel a set-in-stone character? No dialogue options? No choices? No multiple endings?

Basically you are playing the developers characters and their story. Not like Mass Effect where we were repeatedly told WE were shaping the story, and these were OUR Shepards?


Yes, that is correct. Joel is a set character in a set story.