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[Lord Stark]

So...how did Ameridan's helm end up in the Greater Mistral's belly.

[Sifr]

Did you just honestly imply being a Templar is a easy choice? You train for a decade or more, you connect yourself to primial elements that will slowly kill you and then you are set to watch the very people that mandate your existence every day.

The reason you are needed.

You call that easy?

God civilians sometimes.

 

Err... well, if they really wanted to safeguard people from magic, why not become a Seeker? After all, the Seekers were the original force that were tasked with stopping mages abusing their powers, fighting demons and hunting dragons, not internal affairs agents? And they still do those things?

 

The Templars only exist because the Chantry started herding mages into Circles by force rather than making them optional insitutions as they were originally, so they needed a lot more people who can use anti-magic to serve as jailors? Is it any wonder why they decided to have the Templars take lyrium as a shortcut, which also helped keep them in line because they became addicted to it?

 

No-one is saying police or soldiers aren't necessary, but if they can do it without having them be hooked on drugs, that'd be nice?

[thesuperdarkone2]

That's what I've been thinking personally.

I think the whole "Avvar can successfully train with spirits" kind of opens up way more possibilities.

[Heimdall]

Err... well, if they really wanted to safeguard people from magic, why not become a Seeker? After all, the Seekers were the original force that were tasked with stopping mages abusing their powers, fighting demons and hunting dragons, not internal affairs agents? And they still do those things?

 

The Templars only exist because the Chantry started herding mages into Circles by force rather than making them optional insitutions as they were originally, so they needed a lot more people who can use anti-magic to serve as jailors? Is it any wonder why they decided to have the Templars take lyrium as a shortcut, which also helped keep them in line because they became addicted to it?

 

No-one is saying police or soldiers aren't necessary, but if they can do it without having them be hooked on drugs, that'd be nice?

The Circles were never optional, as far as i know, they were founded for that purpose.

 

Bare in mind that that the Seeker method isn't always successful and requires great unquestioning faith to work at all.  There's a reason the Seekers were charged with oversight of the Templars.  If what you need is a smaller group of elite demon hunters, it works, less so for creating a force large enough to hold all the mages in southern Thedas in check, manning every circle.

[myahele]

I think the whole "Avvar can successfully train with spirits" kind of opens up way more possibilities.

 

 

I agree. Not just avvar but probably other"primitive" people, too.

 

We learn from Cole that some of the magic the circles/tevinter do actually harms spirit; either twisting them into demons or effectively permanently making them brain dead.

 

It's quite ironic that spirits fear people as much as people fear them.  That people turn spirits into demons as much as demons turn mages into abomination

[Sifr]

The Circles were never optional, as far as i know, they were founded for that purpose.

 

Bare in mind that that the Seeker method isn't always successful and requires great unquestioning faith to work at all.  There's a reason the Seekers were charged with oversight of the Templars.  If what you need is a smaller group of elite demon hunters, it works, less so for creating a force large enough to hold all the mages in southern Thedas in check, manning every circle.

 

According to the lore, the Circle's evolved out of the magical colleges that existed in most cities across Thedas long before the Chantry even existed, until the fall of the Tevinter Imperium and First Blight turned most of the population against magic, forcing mages to be detained and exiled to remote fortresses far away from the rest of civilisation.

 

I did note earlier that Seeker training doesn't always work, hence why being a Templar is the easier option for some who are unable to complete the training because they cannot summon the Spirit of Faith needed to gain those abilities?

 

It would also take far too long to train Seekers to fill the ranks of those whom could man the Circles, I agree, which is why I understand why they decided to have the Templars use lyrium instead to gain those powers, it just seems that the price is far too high? Or that people with faith are pushed to become Templars rather than Seekers, without even trying to see if they could have succeeded at it?

 

Cullen seems to suggest that many are only told of the drawbacks only after they've become addicted to the stuff? If they knew the risks and still wanted to take it afterwards, then that's fine, on their own head be it? The problem is that it's often treated as a insidious leash that the Chantry has over them?

 

As for the Seekers, the real failure in the system is that their supposed oversight doesn't really seem to work?

 

They really should have maintained a constant presence in or operated from the Circles, rather than being thousands of leagues away and getting reports that the Templars likely whitewashed so their actions would seem more justified?

 

While tough Knight-Commanders like Meredith could have probably been allowed to hunt down the blood mages without problem, do we really all think the amount of mages being raped and forced to undergo tranquility (or both) in places like the Gallows would have allowed to continue, if they had a Seeker in residence that was breathing down their neck at every turn?

[SgtSteel91]

Maybe there should be a Harrowing for Seekers/Templars. Knights are given a choice to either undergo the Vigil to become Seekers, knowing that it's an involved process but they will have Anti-Demon/Mage powers without Lyrium addiction if they succeed, or to take Lyrium to get the powers quicker, but they will have to endure the addiction.

[Sifr]

So...how did Ameridan's helm end up in the Greater Mistral's belly.

 

Well, he's not wearing it when you meet him...

 

Personally, I like to imagine that he left it behind, someone pinched it and ended up getting eaten by a Dragon shortly afterwards for their trouble?

[The Baconer]

All in all, it makes Templars seem like they were formed from those who wanted to fast-track becoming a Seeker and took shortcuts to get there? And with how the Rite of Tranquility was later abused and forced on mages, one can't say that Templars aren't fond of taking the easy options?

 

If the Seekers were the first ones to propagate the Rite as a magic-removing procedure on mages, against Ameridan's wishes, what would that have to do with the Templars?

[Master Warder Z_]

No one points out the hypocrisy of demanding protection of the Templars while conversely demeaning them due to the means of it.

That's something Cullen, Alistair and even Samson have in common.

They all believe that the Order needs to exist, and yet ride it non stop on the lyrium issue.

It's pathetic the way those broken men think they can somehow grasp the purpose of the Order while simultaneously groaning about how oppressive it is.

It exists because it is required to exist and it's means exist because they need exist.

[Sifr]

If the Seekers were the first ones to propagate the Rite as a magic-removing procedure on mages, against Ameridan's wishes, what would that have to do with the Templars?

 

Because while the Seekers might have come up with it as part of their initiation, it's effects were temporary and reversed immediately afterwards? It was the Templars who abused the living heck out of the Rite for over 800 years?

 

Using it as a punishment probably started out as something they used solely on the worst of the worst mages, but eventually over time, it became standard practice for any transgression or if the Templars thought the mages were "weak" to control themselves... or because they felt like it, or wanted to sleep with someone who wouldn't fight back?

 

Ameridan implies that in his time, rather than Tranquility, they punished mages who broke the rules either with execution or imprisonment?

[thesuperdarkone2]

No one points out the hypocrisy of demanding protection of the Templars while conversely demeaning them due to the means of it.

That's something Cullen, Alistair and even Samson have in common.

They all believe that the Order needs to exist, and yet ride it non stop on the lyrium issue.

It's pathetic the way those broken men think they can somehow grasp the purpose of the Order while simultaneously groaning about how oppressive it is.

It exists because it is required to exist and it's means exist because they need exist.

Leliana's ending and Ameridan's memories where Templars didn't exist pretty much imply mages and Seekers were pretty much all that was needed when things went to hell

[Sifr]

It exists because it is required to exist and it's means exist because they need exist.

 

It exists because they need jailors to keep the mages prisoners in a tower... if they only imprisoned the mages who actually broke the rules, rather than everyone because they "might" be dangerous, they'd not need half as many Templars?

[Bad King]

Great. Do we get to meet any of them?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Briala revere the creators?

[The Baconer]

Because while the Seekers might have come up with it as part of their initiation, it's effects were temporary and reversed immediately afterwards? It was the Templars who abused the living heck out of the Rite for over 800 years?

 

The effects were temporary if the initiation succeeded. When a mage tried to join the Seekers for the first time, and failed, that is where its adaptation as a permanent sundering of magic began.

 

Even if its abuse is largely the work of Templars, it was the Seekers who gave them this weapon in the first place, and idly watched as it became a tool of malicious intent.

[Sifr]

Oh certainly, no-one's saying the Seekers didn't screw up majorly as they let the Templars run rampant, they probably should have cracked down on them a long time ago and their inaction makes them just as responsible for the system failing as badly as it did?

 

Of course, that might have been hard to do since before the Templars went nuts and broke off from the Chantry, the public seems to have had a high opinion of them, whereas they barely know the Seekers even exist? If the Seekers had tried to curtail the Templars before, public opinion would have gone against them fast?

 

The Chantry would have probably also sided with the Templars, in part because they're the muscle they rely on, but also because they have more control over them than the Seekers, who are answerable only to the Divine... and not even then, half the time, as Cassandra admits?

[The Baconer]

Of course, that might have been hard to do since before the Templars went nuts and broke off from the Chantry, the public seems to have had a high opinion of them, whereas they barely know the Seekers even exist? If the Seekers had tried to curtail the Templars, public opinion would have gone against them fast.

 

Um, the Templars broke away from the Chantry at the behest of the Seekers, and it was the Seekers who lead them in the war. That bit is also their fault.

 

Public opinion of the Seekers means little. Scant few are even aware of their existence, let alone their operations. Public opinion shouldn't even factor in to the completion of their duties in the first place.

 

 

The Chantry would have probably also sided with the Templars, in part because they're the muscle they rely on, but also because they have more control over them than the Seekers, who are answerable only to the Divine... and not even then, half the time, as Cassandra admits?

 

If the Chantry had more control over the Templars than the Seekers, the war, as it was, would not have even been possible.

 

If the Seekers had the strength of character and presence of mind to investigate and demonstrate why conditions like those found in Kirkwall were counterproductive, I doubt the Chantry would be so inconvenienced as to override them. Especially under Justinia.

[Sifr]

Um, the Templars broke away from the Chantry at the behest of the Seekers, and it was the Seekers who lead them in the war. That bit is also their fault.

 

Well, Lambert started the war and Corin continued it, but the first was a complete basket-case and the latter decided to let a demon impersonate him, while he was busy murdering his entire order? Cass suggests that many Seekers were against the actual war, while was likely why so many of them ended up getting offed in the trap Corin set up?

 

If the Chantry had more control over the Templars than the Seekers, the war, as it was, would not have even been possible.

 

Well, that's the thing, they thought they had control because of the Lyrium, but the Templars found a way to undercut them by using the Carta and smugglers to supply them, or turning to Red Lyrium as a substitute?

[Addai]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Briala revere the creators?

Not that I can recall.

[In Exile]

Maybe there should be a Harrowing for Seekers/Templars. Knights are given a choice to either undergo the Vigil to become Seekers, knowing that it's an involved process but they will have Anti-Demon/Mage powers without Lyrium addiction if they succeed, or to take Lyrium to get the powers quicker, but they will have to endure the addiction.

Seekers do have a harrowing (of sorts). If they fail they become tranquil instead of abominations.

[The Ascendant]

I liked the character, well what we saw of him. He did so much for the world, yet was misremembered and marginalized and his deeds undone by ignorance. I was humbled to have met him, another ancient elf from the past.

[The Baconer]

Well, Lambert started the war and Corin continued it, but the first was a complete basket-case and the latter decided to let a demon impersonate him, while he was busy murdering his entire order? Cass suggests that many Seekers were against the actual war, while was likely why so many of them ended up getting offed in the trap Corin set up?

 

Why is she literally the only one to break away and act in opposition to the war? Why isn't there any Seeker investigation of the events at Kirkwall? There are a number of both Templars and Mages who step up to the plate, regardless of which faction the Inquisition pursues. The Seekers have no excuse, nor do they have any sympathy from me.

 

 

Well, that's the thing, they thought they had control because of the Lyrium, but the Templars found a way to undercut them by using the Carta and smugglers to supply them, or turning to Red Lyrium as a substitute?

 

The Seekers had the authority to break the Nevarran accord, and also to issue commands to the Templars.

[Sifr]

Why is she literally the only one to break away and act in opposition to the war? Why isn't there any Seeker investigation of the events at Kirkwall? There are a number of both Templars and Mages who step up to the plate, regardless of which faction the Inquisition pursues. The Seekers have no excuse, nor do they have any sympathy from me.

 

She wasn't the only one, it's suggested that others did oppose the war and were trying to stop it, but Cass is the most prominent one because of her position as Right Hand of the Divine? The rest likely either were trying to stop the war in their own way (with limited success), were killed at Caer Oswin or decided to throw up their hands and simply quit?

 

The Seekers might have broken the Accord, but they weren't all pulling the Templars strings?

[Master Warder Z_]

Well, Lambert started the war

Ahem o.o

Justinia started the war.

[The Baconer]

She wasn't the only one, it's suggested that others did oppose the war and were trying to stop it, but Cass is the most prominent one because of her position as Right Hand of the Divine? The rest likely either were trying to stop the war in their own way (with limited success), were killed at Caer Oswin or decided to throw up their hands and simply quit?

 

Cassandra states that she has no idea where any other Seeker is, anywhere. She is literally the only one to provide any assistance to the Inquisition. If there are survivors who went into hiding or, as you say, threw up their hands and quit, they better keep on hiding.

 

 

The Seekers might have broken the Accord, but they weren't all pulling the Templars strings?

 

When their intervention was needed, they were nowhere to be found. When they finally decided to act, they ended up bringing themselves and (nearly) the Templars to ruin. It doesn't matter if they weren't all culpable, the organization itself was nothing but a toxic presence.