875 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Have played or payed attention to Dragon age? If King Maric was still around in DAO none of that mess in the game would of happen.  If Celien's mom did not get Assassinated we would not have the Civil war in DAI. 
It's called a Domino effect.

Just because Bioware's used naive world building tropey stuff before doesn't make it any better here.

This would probably fall under the discussion in another thread, about using Disneyland type story setups. One guy and his BFF save the world! That's not how things really work.

[leaguer of one]

Yes of course mages would commit mass suicide because... because.. power of love.As i said no mages leaders would be gone and rebellion was started by them and even then it wasn't unanimous so all libertarians would be dead so unless you want tell me that utter defeat on mages side would somehow motivate mages to rebel no.Not rly as i said mages were divided on whole war thing and it started only because freed by divine mages started it and even then mages were divided.

 

2.If you have problem with understanding something i have said twice and well simple short sentence well... 

1.Rage is a hell of the thing. Sorry but the majority of the mages were fed up. Even if the majority of the leaders may of kept up with the system, the majority of mages as a whole was fed up. The Leaders were the last line in holding the mages from uprising. If they when then there goes the last people who could of peacefully talked to the mages down from going to war. And Lambert did not stop that. Taking the leaders would not of stopped the war, it would of stopped any chances of it ending peacefully. The damage would of been even worse with out the leaders of the mages around and the hinterland valley which had mages fight with not leaders showing that.

 

2.Then rewrite it again.

[Sable Rhapsody]

That was development with more complexity. This just sounds naive and silly. But for one guy's death, everything between Orlais and the Dales would be kumbayah?

 

I don't think it'd be happy and fluffy forever if Ameridan had lived.  But it certainly would have been different.

 

The history of the early Chantry isn't as ancient as Arlathan, but it's still 800 years ago.  How much certainty do we have IRL about the world 800 years ago?  Personally, I was happy to take Abelas at his word about the elves destroying themselves. So by the same token, I'm happy to take Ameridan at his word about Drakon.  He knew the emperor, he lived during that time, and Brother Genitivi didn't.

[Addai]

I don't think it'd be happy and fluffy forever if Ameridan had lived.  But it certainly would have been different.
 
The history of the early Chantry isn't as ancient as Arlathan, but it's still 800 years ago.  How much certainty do we have IRL about the world 800 years ago?  Personally, I was happy to take Abelas at his word about the elves destroying themselves. So by the same token, I'm happy to take Ameridan at his word about Drakon.  He knew the emperor, he lived during that time, and Brother Genitivi didn't.

And how do you know Ameriden wasn't being manipulated, or that Drakon wouldn't have changed his mind if the elves didn't convert to Andrastianism? It's more than just Genitivi who depict Drakon as a zealot intending to convert the world.

[Sable Rhapsody]

And how do you know Ameriden wasn't being manipulated, or that Drakon wouldn't have changed his mind if the elves didn't convert to Andrastianism? It's more than just Genitivi who depict Drakon as a zealot intending to convert the world.

Because in 800 years when people write about the Inquisitor, they're gonna get a lot of things wrong. Becauee the accounts that are the closest to truth will come from the Inner Circle, the people who knew quizzy. And because I personally don't think there's anything inherently wrong about giving someone the benefit of the doubt. I'm not certain that Ameridan has the total truth of it, but it's more probable to me that he's right.

Give the DLC a chance if you have the opportunity to play it. It characterizes Ameridan and Drakon's relationship better than I can in a forum post.

[leaguer of one]

Speculations. Things could have ended up with something totally different.  Now we have the info what happened, Dales was steamrolled by Orlais. Simple as that. With that in mind Ameridan really pissed all over his people. Probably had his own family butchered because of it.

Speculation? Please. More like reality. Sorry but you can't deny the fact  during the 2nd blight the only reason the elves did not take part in it was because Orlias held it back. No way they can take on 2 god dragons. You're not getting that you are saying it's a good idea to let the one thing holding back the 2nd blight  from the dales fall. Seriously, no way can Orlias handle them both. If Ameridan did not do what he did, Hamsheral would of been over run by the blight as well as Orlias.

[LOLandStuff]

Orlais steamrolling the Dales lol

 

Here, let me be the one to mention how the elves took advantage of a weakened Orlais and steamrolled it first.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I can just imagine Ameridan reading the things that some here are writing about how the Elves should not work with Human or how he should have let Hakkon go on a rampage...and just shake his head...and perhaps facepalm for good measure...

 

That was the kind of thinking that made the Dales not give aid to Orlais during the Second Blight, which eventually lead to the war and their destruction...

[leaguer of one]

Because in 800 years when people write about the Inquisitor, they're gonna get a lot of things wrong. Becauee the accounts that are the closest to truth will come from the Inner Circle, the people who knew quizzy. And because I personally don't think there's anything inherently wrong about giving someone the benefit of the doubt. I'm not certain that Ameridan has the total truth of it, but it's more probable to me that he's right.

Give the DLC a chance if you have the opportunity to play it. It characterizes Ameridan and Drakon's relationship better than I can in a forum post.

^This. 

 

DAI is proof enough on how easily people get info wrong on what really happened.

[leaguer of one]

Orlais steamrolling the Dales lol

 

Here, let me be the one to mention how the elves took advantage of a weakened Orlais and steamrolled it first.

Fantastic point.

[leaguer of one]

I can just imagine Ameridan reading the things that some here are writing about how the Elves should not work with Human or how he should have let Hakkon go on a rampage...and just shake his head...and perhaps facepalm for good measure...

 

That was the kind of thinking that made the Dales not give aid to Orlais during the Second Blight, which eventually lead to the war and their destruction...

As I said before. If Ameridan did not do what he did both the dales and the rest of Orlias would look like the hissing wastes.

[LOLandStuff]

I can just imagine Ameridan reading the things that some here are writing about how the Elves should not work with Human or how he should have let Hakkon go on a rampage...and just shake his head...and perhaps facepalm for good measure...

 

That was the kind of thinking that made the Dales not give aid to Orlais during the Second Blight, which eventually lead to the war and their destruction...

 

He knew better than to leave the elves unchecked. They'd only ruin themselves. It happened twice already.

 

It's like leaving kids unsupervised and finding your house burned to the ground and them blaming their teddy bear.

[TheKomandorShepard]

1.Rage is a hell of the thing. Sorry but the majority of the mages were fed up. Even if the majority of the leaders may of kept up with the system, the majority of mages as a whole was fed up. The Leaders were the last line in holding the mages from uprising. If they when then there goes the last people who could of peacefully talked to the mages down from going to war. And Lambert did not stop that. Taking the leaders would not of stopped the war, it would of stopped any chances of it ending peacefully. The damage would of been even worse with out the leaders of the mages around and the hinterland valley which had mages fight with not leaders showing that.

 

2.Then rewrite it again.

Eee what? Again not rly you don't know what you are talking about not even close that majoirty of the mages were "fed up" since fraternities voted against war until they were freed and even then votes were divided not mention fraternities were people involved in politics and they were caguht by lambert. In first place war was because freed mages as i have said voted for war.So no i don't see low rank mages that aren't involved in politics start war after demonstration how easily rebelion was crushed by templars not mention as i said libertarians were captured by lambert so there would be no one to start revolution.So no there is no chance mages would start revolution after that in first place because rebels would have been crushed if they weren't freed by divine second they were divided thrid they didn't have leaders that would start it.  

[Addai]

Because in 800 years when people write about the Inquisitor, they're gonna get a lot of things wrong. Becauee the accounts that are the closest to truth will come from the Inner Circle, the people who knew quizzy. And because I personally don't think there's anything inherently wrong about giving someone the benefit of the doubt. I'm not certain that Ameridan has the total truth of it, but it's more probable to me that he's right.

Give the DLC a chance if you have the opportunity to play it. It characterizes Ameridan and Drakon's relationship better than I can in a forum post.

Even if he was right, I still don't see that ending well, realistically. The elves weren't going to convert, and where would that leave Drakon's plans to convert Thedas to Andrastianism? From what I see, Ameridan was a tool. Or maybe he would've tried to convert them too, given what we know of him.
 
Not going to play the DLC anytime soon. It's mainly because of the gameplay but honestly the story doesn't sound that great, either.

He knew better than to leave the elves unchecked. They'd only ruin themselves. It happened twice already.

It's like leaving kids unsupervised and finding your house burned to the ground and them blaming their teddy bear.

And just what was he going to do about "checking" them? But thanks for reminding us of your views and of why this story probably sucks as badly as it seems to me that it does. If the chuckleheads like something, that's not a good sign.

[leaguer of one]

Just because Bioware's used naive world building tropey stuff before doesn't make it any better here.

This would probably fall under the discussion in another thread, about using Disneyland type story setups. One guy and his BFF save the world! That's not how things really work.

This is not a disneyland troph. These are tragedies based on Miss understandings and hardheadedness.

[leaguer of one]

Even if he was right, I still don't see that ending well, realistically. The elves weren't going to convert, and where would that leave Drakon's plans to convert Thedas to Andrastianism? From what I see, Ameridan was a tool. Or maybe he would've tried to convert them too, given what we know of him.

 

Not going to play the DLC anytime soon. It's mainly because of the gameplay but honestly the story doesn't sound that great, either.

What was saying that Drakon was going to make the elves convert. In his entire rulership he did not make one elf convert to the chantry. Why is it an issue?

 

And HE WAS NOT A TOOL. You just trying to use something to grasp to make an argument. You have nothing.

[Addai]

What was saying that Drakon was going to make the elves convert. In his entire rulership he did not make one elf convert to the chantry. Why is it an issue?

That's not what World of Thedas says about his rule, or about the First Inquisition, for that matter.

[LOLandStuff]

If Drakon was so hellbent on converting everyone, he'd have attacked the Dales during his rule, which he did not.

 

So that's just paranoia and a very poor excuse to hate on Ameridan.

[leaguer of one]

Eee what? Again not rly you don't know what you are talking about not even close that majoirty of the mages were "fed up" since fraternities voted against war until they were freed and even then votes were divided not mention fraternities were people involved in politics and they were caguht by lambert. In first place war was because freed mages as i have said voted for war.So no i don't see low rank mages that aren't involved in politics start war after demonstration how easily rebelion was crushed by templars not mention as i said libertarians were captured by lambert so there would be no one to start revolution.So no there is no chance mages would start revolution after that in first place because rebels would have been crushed if they weren't freed by divine second they were divided thrid they didn't have leaders that would start it.  

Fraternities vote under the republic system. As is one rep makes the vote. Even then is still would be was that person think is best for the group. The mages in a whole were clearly Fed up. Going though da2 and reading da: asunder proves that point. Now, as for going to war they were on the fence. They only did not go over because their leaders eased them as shown in da:asuder. 

 

The leader are the last thing keep the mages relaxed and they are a hair away from uprising. Asuder makes that clear. The war did not start because the mages were freed, it was started because they found out the templer would not be reasoned with. If Lambert did nothing at the time there would not be any war. If the mages found out Lambert capture their leaders the same issue would be in place, that the templers can't be reasoned with.  No rebellion would be crush. That would insight it no matter what. The leaders were not their to lead them to battle but to keep them calm down to not fight.

[leaguer of one]

That's not what World of Thedas says about his rule, or about the First Inquisition, for that matter.

And we all know how correct that was.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Fraternities vote under the republic system. As is one rep makes the vote. Even then is still would be was that person think is best for the group. The mages in a whole were clearly Fed up. Going though da2 and reading da: asunder proves that point. Now, as for going to war they were on the fence. They only did not go over because their leaders eased them as shown in da:asuder. 

 

The leader are the last thing keep the mages relaxed and they are a hair away from uprising. Asuder makes that clear. The war did not start because the mages were freed, it was started because they found out the templer would not be reasoned with. If Lambert did nothing at the time there would not be any war. If the mages found out Lambert capture their leaders the same issue would be in place, that the templers can't be reasoned with.  No rebellion would be crush. That would insight it no matter what. The leaders were not their to lead them to battle but to keep them calm down to not fight.

ehh god... it is said that great deal of mages didn't want war in first place only they were forced into it. And again they weren't fed up if they were they would start war regardless or just change leader of their fraternity on such that would vote on war.So things you are saying are nothing more than pro-mage propaganda.

 

And no again their leaders were represeting fraternities and war was barely pushed even after asunder and promise of divine support so again mages weren't fed up by any mean and as it is said great deal of them didn't want that war only one who wanted war were libertarians that would be dead so no....

 

but i still remember how you argued that rylock didn't want to kill anders for few pages until i proved that she did by providing video so it is lost cause...

[Addai]

If Drakon was so hellbent on converting everyone, he'd have attacked the Dales during his rule, which he did not.

Well we know that tensions were rising at the time, but also that the elves were much stronger, strong enough to steamroll Val Royeux at first. So I don't take this for proof of anything except that he had softer targets northward.

And we all know how correct that was.

We also know the errata and I'm not aware of any that refer to Drakon.

[MisterJB]

That was development with more complexity. This just sounds naive and silly. But for one guy's death, everything between Orlais and the Dales would be kumbayah?

Drakon and Ameridan were friends from before there even was an Orlais.

Ameridan intended to bring the Dales to support Orlais against the Darkspawn.

If he had done so, it's possible relations between the two nations would have been more amicable. Maybe he would have introduced a synthesis of Andrastianism and the elven religion which would have appeased the Chantry. Maybe he would have lifted the elven isolationism and established mercantile connections with Orlais making an invasion less likely or an occupation more merciful.

 

Would it have guaranteed peace everlasting? Probably not. Neither Drakon nor Ameridan were immortal and the differences between the two nations might have made war unavoidable.

Regardless, there is nothing naive to wonder about what could have happened had a different leader been at the helm of the Dales. The DLC never tries make the argument that all that was needed for "kumbayah" was Ameridan. Only that things might have been happened differently.

In fact, the very memory where Varric accuses the Hakkon of being indirectly responsible for the destruction of the Dales has Ameridan admit that a number of elves wanted to abandon Orlais to the Darkspawn which is what happened. 

[LOLandStuff]

Only because Orlais was still weak and recovering from the Blight. And for all their strength, the elves still got their a***s handed to them. And during the Blight, they'd have been curb stomped by the darkspawn since they'd be on their own.

[LPPrince]

Need I remind of the "Two Dragon Gods, one Blight" situation? And that Drakon was the one who broke through Darkspawn lines to lift the Siege of Weisshaupt which saved the Grey Wardens.

 

So, without Ameridan holding Hakkon, Drakon has to divert his forces south. Thus, he never pushes north into the Anderfels and the Warden Order is destroyed. Afterwards, Zazikel steamrolls over everything including the Dales.

So, he actually saved the world.

 

I maintain that everyone should be referring to Ameridan as AmeriDanTheMan. Daniel Gruchy wouldn't mind.