875 réponses à ce sujet

[Uccio]

 

The elven religion is not a proselytizing one, they have no interest in converting non-elves as non-elves are not acknowledged in their faith. They have no missionaries.
As much as has been shown? What, the Dalish? They're nomads, the elves of the Dales were not.

 

Says who? There is not much left to say now is there? Because of this one religion you know. Would chantry then allow such behavior? I don´t see it happening.

Well the dalish are the followers of the dales, so yeah. Something similar.

 

A substantial portion of the population following a form of Andrastrian faith would have made it harder for their opponents to frame the elves as a whole as a quintessentially opposed other and easier for those inclined to find common ground.
It's certainly be a step up from setting themselves up to be hated like they did.

 

Or if a substantial portion of the human population would convert to the dalish faith. The one which is not actually expansionist. That would calm things down much better woudln´t you think? Letting agressive expansionist faith to step foot in your country is just asking conflict. Especially such rasist faith as the andrastian faith.

[TK514]

Or if a substantial portion of the human population would convert to the dalish faith. The one which is not actually expansionist. That would calm things down much better woudln´t you think? Letting agressive expansionist faith to step foot in your country is just asking conflict. Especially such rasist faith as the andrastian faith.

 

 

Yeah, that would work great, what with the Dalish religion being as exclusionary and racist as the Dalish themselves.  There are no non-elves in the Dalish religion.  As far as the elves are concerned, the other races don't even exist in their faith.  By contrast, the Chant of Light is, by its very nature, inclusive.  The Maker didn't just create humans, He created everyone.  When He returns, everyone shares in the glory.  Shartan's verses may have been removed for political reasons, but at least they exist.

 

What would a non-elf get out of a religion that doesn't even consider them worthy of mention?

[Heimdall]

Says who? There is not much left to say now is there? Because of this one religion you know. Would chantry then allow such behavior? I don´t see it happening.
Well the dalish are the followers of the dales, so yeah. Something similar.

Says everything we know about it. The elven faith is about the elves and does not acknowledge non-elves, unless you count Ameridan's importation of a human prophetess into the pantheon. Nor is there indication of a directive to spread their religion.

The Dalish are nomads out of necessity because they get driven off if they stay in one place too long, not a tradition from the Dales. The Dales had cities and lands of their own.

Or if a substantial portion of the human population would convert to the dalish faith. The one which is not actually expansionist. That would calm things down much better woudln´t you think? Letting agressive expansionist faith to step foot in your country is just asking conflict. Especially such rasist faith as the andrastian faith.

Here's the thing, the racism in Andrastian faith didn't exist until after the Exalted March on the Dales. Before that, Shartan was still a respected part of the Chant, elves were not considered farther from the Maker, and Andrastian forces had never been at war with the elves. Most of the current enmity arises directly from the events leading up to and surrounding the war with the Dales.

As for the rest, missionaries don't convert at sword point. If they're meeting with success, it's because elves chose to convert. If some elves want to follow in Shartan's footsteps and convert or follow a syncretic faith like Ameridan, why stop them?

[Addai]

Here's the thing, the racism in Andrastian faith didn't exist until after the Exalted March on the Dales. Before that, Shartan was still a respected part of the Chant, elves were not considered farther from the Maker, and Andrastian forces had never been at war with the elves. Most of the current enmity arises directly from the events leading up to and surrounding the war with the Dales.

As for the rest, missionaries don't convert at sword point. If they're meeting with success, it's because elves chose to convert. If some elves want to follow in Shartan's footsteps and convert or follow a syncretic faith like Ameridan, why stop them?

Andrastianism, however, contains an exclusivity clause and is founded around the principle of spreading the Chant so that the Maker will come back. That's part of its core doctrines. It's not going to co-exist. I'm not talking about what's right or wrong here, just what's realistic.

 

Furthermore, the elves had undergone centuries of attempts to suppress their culture, language and religion by the Tevinter Imperium. They're not just going to accept another human culture's religious incursion with open arms, when they're trying to restore what they believe to be their ancestral beliefs.

[LOLandStuff]

So, how come Andrastians have nothing against dwarves and never tried any Exalted March against them? They built a decent relation based on trade and are ok with it.

 

This "humans wanted to convert the Dales, poor elves and their cutlure and their religion etc" is rather lame.

Their first reaction was to isolate themselves and sit on the bench during a Blight.

 

Besides, it was Andraste who inspired an elf to free themselves from slavery, who later converted. A guy who died for them and was quickly swept under the rug for a bunch of gods who can't even respond to their prayers because they got their ***** locked up.

[Addai]

So, how come Andrastians have nothing against dwarves and never tried any Exalted March against them? They built a decent relation based on trade and are ok with it.

Elves don't live underground. Though maybe they should. Or the Fade version of underground.

The possibility of an Exalted March against the dwarves is also brought up in an Origins epilogue if you help Brother Burkel set up a Chantry in Orzammar.
 

This "humans wanted to convert the Dales, poor elves and their cutlure and their religion etc" is rather lame.
Their first reaction was to isolate themselves and sit on the bench during a Blight.

As Orlais would do in the next Blight. But you know this. Don't you get tired of posting the same things over and over again?

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

So, how come Andrastians have nothing against dwarves and never tried any Exalted March against them? They built a decent relation based on trade and are ok with it.

This "humans wanted to convert the Dales, poor elves and their cutlure and their religion etc" is rather lame.
Their first reaction was to isolate themselves and sit on the bench during a Blight.

Besides, it was Andraste who inspired an elf to free themselves from slavery, who later converted. A guy who died for them and was quickly swept under the rug for a bunch of gods who can't even respond to their prayers because they got their ***** locked up.

. Probably cuz dwarves are extremely isolationist so get haven't done things to anger the chantry and dwarves are the only ones that can mine lyrium. I wonder what would happen to elves if they were the only ones that could mine an essential mineral like lyrium

[LOLandStuff]

Elves don't live underground. Though maybe they should. Or the Fade version of underground.

 

Really? Elves don't live underground?

 

The possibility of an Exalted March against the dwarves is also brought up in an Origins epilogue if you help Brother Burkel set up a Chantry in Orzammar.

 

That's a rumor. And the only reason that's been considered is because they killed a Brother and destroyed his Chantry. What did you expect?

"It's ok, we'll build another one."

 

As Orlais would do in the next Blight. But you know this. Don't you get tired of posting the same things over and over again?

 

Are you even trying?

[LOLandStuff]

. Probably cuz dwarves are extremely isolationist so get haven't done things to anger the chantry and dwarves are the only ones that can mine lyrium. I wonder what would happen to elves if they were the only ones that could mine an essential mineral like lyrium

 

Elves were that too. But unlike them, the dwarves didn't tell humans to **** off because silly reasons. The elves could've found a way to live with humans, but they didn't bother with that.

[Addai]

That's a rumor. And the only reason that's been considered is because they killed a Brother and destroyed his Chantry. What did you expect?
"It's ok, we'll build another one."

As opposed to declaring a holy war- yes. I assume cooler heads prevailed, such as those who realized they wouldn't even get past the front door.

[LOLandStuff]

As opposed to declaring a holy war- yes. I assume cooler heads prevailed, such as those who realized they wouldn't even get past the front door.

 

With time and a little perseverance, I'm sure they'd have managed to get past the second door even. And mages.

[Addai]

With time and a little perseverance, I'm sure they'd have managed to get past the second door even. And mages.

And then, what, maintained a slaveocracy over the lyrium miners? Not even the Chantry is that stupid.

[LOLandStuff]

And then, what, maintained a slaveocracy over the lyrium miners? Not even the Chantry is that stupid.

 

They'd live in dwarven alienages and have a job that sucks, and they'd be harassed and etc etc.

 

Even so, the surface dwarves have it better than the elves. Nobody has any issues with them. Because they've been decent people from the start.

 

But I made a point earlier and you just feel like dragging it into the silly territory of "and then whats?"

[Addai]

They'd live in dwarven alienages and have a job that sucks, and they'd be harassed and etc etc.
 
Even so, the surface dwarves have it better than the elves. Nobody has any issues with them. Because they've been decent people from the start.
 
But I made a point earlier and you just feel like dragging it into the silly territory of "and then whats?"

You're spouting fantasies.

You asked why the Chantry doesn't go after the dwarves the way they do the elves- these are reasons why.

[Bad King]

Yeah, an exalted march against the dwarves was considered but is completely impractical and very dumb. The Chantry needs the dwarves for the lyrium trade and to keep the darkspawn at bay when nobody else bothers fighting them. Attacking them would result in heavy casualties for the Chantry and even if they won, they'd then have to find the resources to maintain control over Orzammar and to hold back the darkspawn. As the Chant of light demands that all people should have faith in the Maker, I'm sure the Chantry would love to have control over Orzammar, but achieving that would be nigh impossible.

[Uccio]

Says everything we know about it. The elven faith is about the elves and does not acknowledge non-elves, unless you count Ameridan's importation of a human prophetess into the pantheon. Nor is there indication of a directive to spread their religion.

 

Please, if you have any info on the elven faith dismissing humans then please share. Not being specifically mentioned does not mean exclusion.

 

Here's the thing, the racism in Andrastian faith didn't exist until after the Exalted March on the Dales. Before that, Shartan was still a respected part of the Chant, elves were not considered farther from the Maker, and Andrastian forces had never been at war with the elves. Most of the current enmity arises directly from the events leading up to and surrounding the war with the Dales.
As for the rest, missionaries don't convert at sword point. If they're meeting with success, it's because elves chose to convert. If some elves want to follow in Shartan's footsteps and convert or follow a syncretic faith like Ameridan, why stop them?

 

This assuming human nature would somehow change during the times before and after the war with dales.

 

Missionaries indeed used to come with a sword. You only need to look at the history. My own country was converted into catholic christianity by sword. How do you think christianity spread so wide? Not by singing verses, that much I can tell you. And the dalish converts, well, converts usually tend to be most rabid ones.

[ComedicSociopathy]

They'd live in dwarven alienages and have a job that sucks, and they'd be harassed and etc etc.

 

Even so, the surface dwarves have it better than the elves. Nobody has any issues with them. Because they've been decent people from the start.

 

But I made a point earlier and you just feel like dragging it into the silly territory of "and then whats?"

 

The reason why humans treat surface dwarves better then elves probably has more to do with said dwarves having access to dwarves weapons, enhancements and lyrium then anything else. 

[Bad King]

Please, if you have any info on the elven faith dismissing humans then please share. Not being specifically mentioned does not mean exclusion.

 

The elven faith isn't codified in the same way that the Chant is, so I doubt there's any concrete rule that excludes humans, even if some elves believe that humans should be excluded. Feynriel for instance is a human (albeit with a Dalish mother) that worships the creators and the clan defended him when the Templars came to claim him. Seeing that the creators are said to have taught the elves many of the skills that they used to construct their societies and that elven society influenced Tevinter which in turn influenced the rest of Thedas, it wouldn't be at all outlandish for a human to decide to worship the creators as precursors/harbingers of their own civilisation.

[LOLandStuff]

The reason why humans treat surface dwarves better then elves probably has more to do with said dwarves having access to dwarves weapons, enhancements and lyrium then anything else. 

 

True that.

But if the elves tried to be at least a little friendlier with the andrastian nations it wouldn't have ended the way it did.

You can't just blame it on evil Chantry wanting to convert everyone because you simply hate it.

[Br3admax]

The reason why humans treat surface dwarves better then elves probably has more to do with said dwarves having access to dwarves weapons, enhancements and lyrium then anything else. 

The reason humans and dwarves get along is because humans and dwarves have always gotten along. Trade established that relationship, but no one bar Harrowmont has ever tried to destroy it. When your bros create an entire language that binds a continent above and bellow together, for the better mind you, you stick by them. Humans and elves don't get along because of centuries of being taught to not get along. They have to compete for resources, and elves and humans have for the most part always been hostile towards each other. Even when peace was established, it crumbled relatively soon after. 

[Xilizhra]

The reason humans and dwarves get along is because humans and dwarves have always gotten along. Trade established that relationship, but no one bar Harrowmont has ever tried to destroy it. When your bros create an entire language that binds a continent above and bellow together, for the better mind you, you stick by them. Humans and elves don't get along because of centuries of being taught to not get along. They have to compete for resources, and elves and humans have for the most part always been hostile towards each other. Even when peace was established, it crumbled relatively soon after. 

There's much to be grateful to Tevinter for here.

 

Also, Wynne, in Origins, says something about how the Maker didn't really create dwarves, so I suspect that's part of why there haven't been more missionary efforts.

[MisterJB]

As opposed to declaring a holy war- yes. I assume cooler heads prevailed, such as those who realized they wouldn't even get past the front door.

They wouldn't have to. Orzammar is 100% dependant to the surface for food.
Close all trade for a couple of months and they'd surrender.

[Bad King]

They wouldn't have to. Orzammar is 100% dependant to the surface for food.
Close all trade for a couple of months and they'd surrender.

 

Not 100%. Deep mushrooms, nug, deepstalker, bronto etc. are eaten in the city, so if food supplies from trade were cut off they could probably adapt and increase their consumption of foodstuffs cultivated or hunted below ground. It would hit the city hard, but dwarves are often portrayed as skilled inventors so I imagine they could work on finding ways of ensuring the abundance of non-surface foods if forced.

 

Meanwhile, the surface would also become impoverished due to the halt in the lyrium trade and the plummeting of income due to the prevention of trade in various other goods. The Chantry requires massive volumes of lyrium to keep the Templars leashed and effective, so they'd struggle to retain control if a trade embargo was maintained (I doubt they'd come close to getting the amount needed if they relied only on the black market). If the Chantry was to defeat Orzammar, they'd have to organise a swift invasion in order to triumph as any ban on trade would be very harmful to them. And if said invasion succeeded, it would be a huge struggle to maintain control of the city while also fending off the darkspawn.

[Heimdall]

Andrastianism, however, contains an exclusivity clause and is founded around the principle of spreading the Chant so that the Maker will come back. That's part of its core doctrines. It's not going to co-exist. I'm not talking about what's right or wrong here, just what's realistic.

And yet that didn't stop Drakon, the founder of the Chantry, from befriending an elf that still worshipped his own gods alongside Andraste. Nor does it stop the modern Chantry from doing business with the dwarves on a regular basis. My point is, the Chantry is clearly open to compromise on that point, so the notion that it makes coexistence impossible is false.

Furthermore, the elves had undergone centuries of attempts to suppress their culture, language and religion by the Tevinter Imperium. They're not just going to accept another human culture's religious incursion with open arms, when they're trying to restore what they believe to be their ancestral beliefs.

Shartan and Ameridan prove you wrong.

And think for a moment, don't you think after a thousand years of slavery many of the elves would lose faith in the elven gods? And then they were lead out of slavery not by a servant of Elgar'nan or Mythal, but by a follower of Andraste, who herself had been a slave to Tevinter as they were.

I find the Dales' banning of Chantries and missionaries quite telling: why ban them unless they were finding converts? Clearly the elves were not so opposed to Andrastrian ideas as you claim, it was good enough for Shartan afterall.

Instead I would lay that attitude at the feet of their leaders, the noble houses from which the Dalish clans trace themselves (According to Lanaya) who no doubt built their legitimacy off the ideology of reclaiming the days of Elvhenan. They tried to squash Andrastianism among the populace because it threatened their power and their idealology, not the elves as a whole.

[Xilizhra]

And yet that didn't stop Drakon, the founder of the Chantry, from befriending an elf that still worshipped his own gods alongside Andraste. Nor does it stop the modern Chantry from doing business with the dwarves on a regular basis. My point is, the Chantry is clearly open to compromise on that point, so the notion that it makes coexistence impossible is false.

Shartan and Ameridan prove you wrong.

And think for a moment, don't you think after a thousand years of slavery many of the elves would lose faith in the elven gods? And then they were lead out of slavery not by a servant of Elgar'nan or Mythal, but by a follower of Andraste, who herself had been a slave to Tevinter as they were.

I find the Dales' banning of Chantries and missionaries quite telling: why ban them unless they were finding converts? Clearly the elves were not so opposed to Andrastrian ideas as you claim, it was good enough for Shartan afterall.

Instead I would lay that attitude at the feet of their leaders, the noble houses from which the Dalish clans trace themselves (According to Lanaya) who no doubt built their legitimacy off the ideology of reclaiming the days of Elvhenan. They tried to squash Andrastianism among the populace because it threatened their power and their idealology, not the elves as a whole.

The Chantry is not a benign organization. Putting everything else aside, a groundswell of Andrastians would start to demand throwing elven mages into Circles, in addition to, once they had the power to, demand that the elven pantheon stop being worshiped by everyone. The Chantry only ever compromises on this when other circumstances prevent them from moving in, or if it's not worth the cost in resources, but taking on an elven nation right next to the Chantry's center of power would be far less costly than an attempt to seize Orzammar and its souls.