875 réponses à ce sujet

[Uccio]

They wouldn't have to. Orzammar is 100% dependant to the surface for food.
Close all trade for a couple of months and they'd surrender.

 

Or they could turn solely to Tevinter. Food for lyrium, only for Tevinter. Deal of a lifetime.

[SgtSteel91]

Or they could turn solely to Tevinter. Food for lyrium, only for Tevinter. Deal of a lifetime.

 

Maybe a Legion of Dead to throw at the Qunari, as well.

[Bad King]

Or they could turn solely to Tevinter. Food for lyrium, only for Tevinter. Deal of a lifetime.

 

True, if they dedicated some of their military forces to holding a deep road tunnel that led to Tevinter (or any place where they could make contact with Tevinter), they'd have an easy supply of trade goods that would compensate for those lost with the southern Chantry's embargo. Meanwhile the southern Chantry would lose control over its Templars and Mages due to the lack of lyrium supply while Tevinter prospered and they'd be forced to drop the embargo.

[Heimdall]

The Chantry is not a benign organization. Putting everything else aside, a groundswell of Andrastians would start to demand throwing elven mages into Circles, in addition to, once they had the power to, demand that the elven pantheon stop being worshiped by everyone.

And this is somehow worse than demanding that the elven pantheon be worshipped by everyone to legitimize the few in power? I do not view the circles as inherently malevolent institutions anyway.

The Chantry only ever compromises on this when other circumstances prevent them from moving in, or if it's not worth the cost in resources, but taking on an elven nation right next to the Chantry's center of power would be far less costly than an attempt to seize Orzammar and its souls.

The elves were formidable enough to fight their way across Orlais to the gates of Val Royeaux before they were pushed back, I'm confidant that they posed enough of a threat that the Chantry wouldn't have been willing to take it by force. And if the conversion rate were so high, they wouldn't need to. The Chantry doesn't need the Dales to be part of Orlais to be satisfied.

[Delphine]

Well, I feel this thread has gone a little off-topic, so let me recenter it on the actual thread's subject, y'know, Ameridan (and Telana).

 

Source: http://shalizeh7.tum...use-new-dlc-yay

[Addai]

And yet that didn't stop Drakon, the founder of the Chantry, from befriending an elf that still worshipped his own gods alongside Andraste. Nor does it stop the modern Chantry from doing business with the dwarves on a regular basis. My point is, the Chantry is clearly open to compromise on that point, so the notion that it makes coexistence impossible is false.

An Andrastian accepting a fellow Andrastian proves what?
 

Shartan and Ameridan prove you wrong.

Two whole elves?

There are elven believers in the Qun, too. That doesn't erase the conflicts between Qunari and other races. Furthermore, we don't even know that Shartan worshipped Andraste- he made common cause with her, and I'd have no issue with Ameridan if he just respected Andraste as a rebel leader. Bowing down to her statue is a whole other story.
 

And think for a moment, don't you think after a thousand years of slavery many of the elves would lose faith in the elven gods? And then they were lead out of slavery not by a servant of Elgar'nan or Mythal, but by a follower of Andraste, who herself had been a slave to Tevinter as they were.

I find the Dales' banning of Chantries and missionaries quite telling: why ban them unless they were finding converts? Clearly the elves were not so opposed to Andrastrian ideas as you claim, it was good enough for Shartan afterall.

Instead I would lay that attitude at the feet of their leaders, the noble houses from which the Dalish clans trace themselves (According to Lanaya) who no doubt built their legitimacy off the ideology of reclaiming the days of Elvhenan. They tried to squash Andrastianism among the populace because it threatened their power and their idealology, not the elves as a whole.

Why ban them when their templars threaten your mages, you mean.

You still haven't replied as to how the alienages accepting Andrastianism has improved their lot and caused Andrastians to accept elves as equals.

They wouldn't have to. Orzammar is 100% dependant to the surface for food.
Close all trade for a couple of months and they'd surrender.

And the Chantry's army is 100% dependent on lyrium. Checkmate.

[Xilizhra]

And this is somehow worse than demanding that the elven pantheon be worshipped by everyone to legitimize the few in power? I do not view the circles as inherently malevolent institutions anyway.

It's not as though the Dalish try to proselytize to city elves. Theirs is a voluntary religion.

 

 

The elves were formidable enough to fight their way across Orlais to the gates of Val Royeaux before they were pushed back, I'm confidant that they posed enough of a threat that the Chantry wouldn't have been willing to take it by force. And if the conversion rate were so high, they wouldn't need to. The Chantry doesn't need the Dales to be part of Orlais to be satisfied.

I really think that it did; it wouldn't have kept the peace forever.

[LOLandStuff]

You lot must've hyperventilated when you learned Ameridan was worshiping Andraste as well. Seems you still do.

Too bad for you the guy was just a simple elf, and not an elfy elf.

 

Now why would anyone worship crazies who murdered people for sports, started wars to hoard worshipers, or created abominations to roam the lands because reasons...

[AresKeith]

Well, I feel this thread has gone a little off-topic, so let me recenter it on the actual thread's subject, y'know, Ameridan (and Telana).

 

Source: http://shalizeh7.tum...use-new-dlc-yay

 

Awesome

[Han Shot First]

Actually, he worshiped both the Maker and the Creators. 

 

That was the most interesting part to me. He seemed to regard the Maker as just another god in a pantheon. Was that true of the earliest Andrastians as well then? One of the first questions Ameridan asks is if the Chant of Light had spread to the four corners of the world. One would think he wouldn't be asking that question if the Chant originally preached that the Maker was the only god.

 

The finale had me wondering if the Andrastian religion went through something similar to the Hakkon cult among the Avvar. The Avvar are polytheistic, but the Jaws of Hakkon are a monotheistic cult promoting one of those gods to sole deity and denying the rest. Could the Andrastian religion have originally been polytheistic, with the Maker one god of many, who was at some later date promoted to sole deity?

[Xilizhra]

You lot must've hyperventilated when you learned Ameridan was worshiping Andraste as well. Seems you still do.

Too bad for you the guy was just a simple elf, and not an elfy elf.

 

Now why would anyone worship crazies who murdered people for sports, started wars to hoard worshipers, or created abominations to roam the lands because reasons...

Better than worshiping the supposed creator of darkspawn.

[Bad King]

Now why would anyone worship crazies who murdered people for sports, started wars to hoard worshipers, or created abominations to roam the lands because reasons...

 

There probably were reasons that we aren't really aware of. Dalish folklore (which gets a lot of things right) implies that they taught the elves useful skills, crafts and ideas that transformed the ways in which they lived. Also your comment refers to the individual actions of individual creators rather than multiple actions from multiple gods, and the gods whose actions you list were curbed by the other creators when they got out of hand.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Better than worshiping the supposed creator of darkspawn.

 

Now why would anyone worship crazies who murdered people for sports, started wars to hoard worshipers, or created abominations to roam the lands because reasons...

 

Both religions suck. Therefore you both win the argument since comparing which one sucks more is waste of time and would be like comparing two dog turds to one another.

 

Huzzah, everybody wins! 

[LOLandStuff]

Better than worshiping the supposed creator of darkspawn.

 

Well, at least the Maker had reasons. His creations did a big no-no.

With the Creators...they just do it. Most likely for the lulz.

[Bad King]

That was the most interesting part to me. He seemed to regard the Maker as just another god in a pantheon. Was that true of the earliest Andrastians as well then? One of the first questions Ameridan asks is if the Chant of Light had spread to the four corners of the world. One would think he wouldn't be asking that question if the Chant originally preached that the Maker was the only god.

 

The finale had me wondering if the Andrastian religion went through something similar to the Hakkon cult among the Avvar. The Avvar are polytheistic, but the Jaws of Hakkon are a monotheistic cult promoting one of those gods to sole deity and denying the rest. Could the Andrastian religion have originally been polytheistic, with the Maker one god of many, who was at some later date promoted to sole deity?

 

Interesting post. It's certainly easy for monotheistic religions to appeal to worshippers of precursor polytheistic faiths by promoting the supreme god of a pantheon while removing or demoting the others. Notable examples in RL are Judaism and Islam's relationships with preceding polytheistic Semitic religions.

[AresKeith]

Better than worshiping the supposed creator of darkspawn.

 

And it also gave us the Night's Watc--- Er I mean Grey Wardens

 

Soo

[Addai]

You lot must've hyperventilated when you learned Ameridan was worshiping Andraste as well. Seems you still do.
Too bad for you the guy was just a simple elf, and not an elfy elf.

Oh, please. I suppose we all played the city elf origin. My canon Warden is an Andrastian elf. I'd instead say that I'm not impressed by Ameridan's syncretism because it's rather conventional.
 

Now why would anyone worship crazies who murdered people for sports, started wars to hoard worshipers, or created abominations to roam the lands because reasons...

Religion 101

[Bad King]

Both religions suck. Therefore you both win the argument since comparing which one sucks more is waste of time and would be like comparing two dog turds to one another.

 

Huzzah, everybody wins! 

 

If we're comparing the Chant with ancient elven religion, it's worth noting that the former is codified and well documented while the latter is more vague and can only be pieced together by combining Dalish oral tradition with a few pieces of ancient text and dialogue from Flemeth and Solas. As a result, we're in a much better position to evaluate the former religion than the latter.

[TK514]

Not 100%. Deep mushrooms, nug, deepstalker, bronto etc. are eaten in the city, so if food supplies from trade were cut off they could probably adapt and increase their consumption of foodstuffs cultivated or hunted below ground. It would hit the city hard, but dwarves are often portrayed as skilled inventors so I imagine they could work on finding ways of ensuring the abundance of non-surface foods if forced.

 

Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts explicitly disproves this.  Regardless of who you choose as King, the dwarven contingent at the Winter Palace discusses the fact that the surface war has impacted trade with Orzammar to the point that the city is facing food riots, and that the last remaining stockpiles are going to run out if trade isn't resumed quickly.  Without surface trade, the dwarves will starve to death.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Well, at least the Maker had reasons. His creations did a big no-no.

With the Creators...they just do it. Most likely for the lulz.

 

I'm pretty sure only seven people were responsible for this "big no-no" so why couldn't the Maker just punish them and send their dead corpses to the world below showing everyone their folly. He really didn't have do the whole punish the entire world with darkspawn for generations plan. Sort of makes him look like an ass. 

[Bad King]

Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts explicitly disproves this.  Regardless of who you choose as King, the dwarven contingent at the Winter Palace discusses the fact that the surface war has impacted trade with Orzammar to the point that the city is facing food riots, and that the last remaining stockpiles are going to run out if trade isn't resumed quickly.  Without surface trade, the dwarves will starve to death.

 

The post I was responding to was speculating that the dwarves would be forced to make peace after two months. I didn't mean to imply that they'd be able to survive indefinitely without surface trade, only that they'd be able to outlast the Chantry which would collapse without the lyrium trade. Regardless, another poster pointed out that the dwarves could also intensify their trade with Tevinter in the face of such an embargo and could similarly outlast the southern Chantry.

[AresKeith]

I'm pretty sure only seven people were responsible for this "big no-no" so why couldn't the Maker just punish them and send their dead corpse to the world below showing everyone their folly. He really didn't have do the whole punish the entire world with darkspawn for generations plan. Sort of makes him look like an ass. 

 

That's if the Maker even did that

[Han Shot First]

Interesting post. It's certainly easy for monotheistic religions to appeal to worshippers of precursor polytheistic faiths by promoting the supreme god of a pantheon while removing or demoting the others. Notable examples in RL are Judaism and Islam's relationships with preceding polytheistic Semitic religions.

 

Ahura Mazda had similar origins as well. Before Zoroaster the Persians worshiped multiple gods, of which he was just one. Later he got promoted to sole deity. On that note I wonder if there are any monotheistic cults that didn't have a polytheistic origin.

[LOLandStuff]

He is an ass. He's the sort who'd take it out on everyone because someone did something stupid.

Guess he's trying to teach them a lesson. In an extreme way.

[Steelcan]

we all know the Maker didn't make Darkspawn, even if he does exist