And I don't have any issue with learning something that can be useful. Only with the belief that just because a tribe of, what, a couple hundred people who worship spirits has managed to avoid being destroyed by an Abominations that means we can apply it in place of the Circle to nations of millions.
A tribe of that size is much more vulnerable to being wiped out by abominations than a nation of millions. One would think that care would be even more necessary there.
Yes, they are savages without any civilization to speak of. Did you miss that?
"Civilization" is subjective. It's not simply giant buildings.
How does DA2 proves it?
Well Leliana going "The Resolutionists are surely behind ALL THE TROUBLE here" and bringing that back to Justinia and Cassandra was probably why Cassandra says "We thought Meredith had things under control".
Plain and simple the Seekers failed to actually do their job in regards to Kirkwall.
How does DA2 proves it?
Because they were never there; they were never able to analyze what factors were falling outside the Templars' control (Hawke, Anders, Quentin) and where the Templars' policies weren't working. Or that Meredith wasn't doing her job as Knight Commander in declaring the Annulment.
Of course they knew about that. Everyone does, it's in Varric's book, Lambert and Fiona mention it in "Asunder".
Cassandra in DA2 didn't know Anders' relationship with the Circle, or the real reason why the Circle reacted with violence to the declaration of the Rite. I would assume if the Seekers had the true story, Circle policies after the event wouldn't have changed as they did, because they would have realized its the same ineffective logic that was at play in Kirkwall.
But I am likely giving Lambert's troglodytic brain too much credit.
Because they were never there; they were never able to analyze what factors were falling outside the Templars' control (Hawke, Anders, Quentin) and where the Templars' policies weren't working. Or that Meredith wasn't doing her job as Knight Commander in declaring the Annulment.
I have no real clue how secret services work but I very much doubt they need to be everywhere at once.
Cassandra in DA2 didn't know Anders' relationship with the Circle, or the real reason why the Circle reacted with violence to the declaration of the Rite. I would assume if the Seekers had the true story, Circle policies after the event wouldn't have changed as they did, because they would have realized its the same ineffective logic that was at play in Kirkwall.
But I am likely giving Lambert's troglodytic brain too much credit.
You mean they couldn't solve the great mystery of why people resisted the order to kill them all?
Also, we ourselves haven't been able to agree on what was ineffective in Kirkwall and that was just a game to us.
And what do you mean Cassandra didn't know of Anders' relationship with the Circle? Not only is it all in Varric's book, it wouldn't be hard to discover records of the seven time escapee from Ferelden who became a Grey Warden.
The apprentice who refused to be parted from her spirit had lyrium with her, tough.
The fact it was a friendlish spirit rather than a demon probably assisted the ritual.
It's hard to determine how much lyrium the Circle ritual had compared to the Avvar's, but if they do use less in their rituals then it would be in the economically interests of the Circle and the Order to find out why. Perhaps, the ritual does only work with a spirit and not a demon. Might as well spend some people to find out.
They are in the stone age.
And I don't have any issue with learning something that can be useful. Only with the belief that just because a tribe of, what, a couple hundred people who worship spirits has managed to avoid being destroyed by an Abominations that means we can apply it in place of the Circle to nations of millions.
I don't think I said that the Avvar ways would definitely think for the Circle, just that the Avvar, regardless of the fact they do live in a more technologically inferior culture then most of Thedas, have knowledge that shouldn't be ignored just because their subpar in one facet. Honestly, I'm mostly saying that since the Vivienne was being such a dismissive ass to the Avvar without even thinking critically on how the Circle might profit from them.
Plus, Master Warder Z was being a ******. Unless, he was trolling. I honestly can't tell with that guy.
See, that is the other way of discussing the grounds upon which the Annulment was called that I was referring before.
I see your point. If they aren't harming anyone and the people actually want them ruling, what is the issue, right?
But I still stand on the other side. For one, we don't know how often a Seer goes bad and even if it's not very, they are a still a threat as Anders proves. And the simple fact that they are ruler should be grounds for Annulment regardless of how the people feel.Still, I acknowledge that this can come off as arrogance. As in "I know what is better for you than you."
Yeah, you have a point. It's just that they idea of murdering people who are honestly minding their own business and not hurting anyone from what we know of, really bothers. The Rivaini system just seemed to work with even the Templars being fine with it. It's sad to see it destroyed. Cassandra probably would have ok'd it. Oh well.
I have no real clue how secret services work but I very much doubt they need to be everywhere at once.
Who said they need to be everywhere at once? We're talking about them going to literally one place. The place the whole world was supposedly watching, where events are unfolding that will greatly affect they system they are supposed to maintain.
You mean they couldn't solve the great mystery of why people resisted the order to kill them all?
Dumb jokes aside, the context of why is actually really, really, really important.
Also, we ourselves haven't been able to agree on what was ineffective in Kirkwall and that was just a game to us.
I'm not being subjective.
And what do you mean Cassandra didn't know of Anders' relationship with the Circle? Not only is it all in Varric's book, it wouldn't be hard to discover records of the seven time escapee from Ferelden who became a Grey Warden.
Cassandra's ah-ha moment was "So it was Meredith that provoked the Circle. She is to blame." (with the last line not even being truly accurate, admittedly)
If Anders blew up the Chantry with support or in collaboration with the Circle, or mages from the Circle, the Rite wouldn't have been so much a provocation as a response to a rebellion initiated by the mages. One of the big reasons why the why is so important.
Cassandra is a wonderful woman but she is soft.
Emphasis on soft; only in some respects obviously, but that is among the reasons while she is unfit to be a leader.
So, I suppose your fine with Vivienne being Divine, then. I wouldn't have figured you'd be fine with a mage on the Sunburst Throne but it's good to know that you believe in mages having access to real political power.
Unless, your more of a Leliana fanboy instead. 
Who said they need to be everywhere at once? We're talking about them going to literally one place. The place the whole world was supposedly watching, where events are unfolding that will greatly affect they system they are supposed to maintain.
And there is no reason they can't have informants in the city that are not Seekers. Or even that there weren't Seekers there we know nothing about.
Dumb jokes aside, the context of why is actually really, really, really important.
I doubt any tower ever just submitted to Annulment.
I'm not being subjective.
It's not something that can be determined objectively.
Cassandra's ah-ha moment was "So it was Meredith that provoked the Circle. She is to blame." (with the last line not even being truly accurate, admittedly)
If Anders blew up the Chantry with support or in collaboration with the Circle, or mages from the Circle, the Rite wouldn't have been so much a provocation as a response to a rebellion initiated by the mages. One of the big reasons why the why is so important.
It is not because, regardless of Meredith's reasons, the Circle would always have resisted the Right of Annulment.
And mages will always see an Annulment with poor eyes regardless of the Templars' reasons.
And there is no reason they can't have informants in the city that are not Seekers. Or even that there weren't Seekers there we know nothing about.
Yeah, like Lelianna... which would, along with their presumptions regarding Kirkwall, would imply these informants are of... similar competence to the Seekers themselves.
It's not something that can be determined objectively.
The factors that prevented the Gallows from operating in a sustainable or orderly manner can be objectively determined. What the best methods are in approaching these factors are not, but this is the stage where the Seekers needed to be involved.
I doubt any tower ever just submitted to Annulment.
It is not because, regardless of Meredith's reasons, the Circle would always have resisted the Right of Annulment.And mages will always see an Annulment with poor eyes regardless of the Templars' reasons.
You are chronically missing the point. The subject of importance was what caused the Annulment in the first place, which would determine whether said Annulment was justified. The implication of Circle mage violence triggering the Annulment is remarkably different from Circle mages violently responding to an unjustified Annulment.
So, I suppose your fine with Vivienne being Divine, then. I wouldn't have figured you'd be fine with a mage on the Sunburst Throne but it's good to know that you believe in mages having access to real political power.
Unless, your more of a Leliana fanboy instead.
What lead to the Circle being Annulled is irrelevant to the greater context of the Circle system as a whole
No it isn't, which is why there are guidelines for declaring an Annulment in the first place, and why groups like the Seekers exist.
Meredith declared it as a response to an event the Circle had no involvement in, on the grounds that the people of Kirkwall would demand blood, and that she would have no choice but to give it to them... Only, that's not what Templars are supposed to do. The Seekers should have upheld the responsibility of weeding out individuals who lack the proper strength of character and virtue necessary to hold the position, such as her.
As well as weeding out toxic influences within the mages that the Templars are, for whatever reason, unable to resolve, such as Orsino, or Quentin.
Bah, Orsino was hardly toxic to the Circle.
Bah, Orsino was hardly toxic to the Circle.
He was collaborating with a serial-killing maleficar. More than enough to declare him a failure as First Enchanter, in my eyes, and worse.
And he had no knowledge of Quentin's crimes until well after the fact.
Yes he's an accessory after the fact, but it's not something that totally and fully makes him a failure to the Circle in my eyes, given the pressures he has had to contend with on a daily basis for years now (not just as a Mage but as an Elf too).
Because they were never there; they were never able to analyze what factors were falling outside the Templars' control (Hawke, Anders, Quentin) and where the Templars' policies weren't working. Or that Meredith wasn't doing her job as Knight Commander in declaring the Annulment.
Except for the fact Meredith never knew what Mages under her care did what and never care to and the templers that did were utterly ignored.
And he had no knowledge of Quentin's crimes until well after the fact.
Yes he's an accessory after the fact, but it's not something that totally and fully makes him a failure to the Circle in my eyes, given the pressures he has had to contend with on a daily basis for years now (not just as a Mage but as an Elf too).
Nope. It was during. He had letter from him in his Lab during his test on the detail. The guy knew and did nothing point blank.
Bah, Orsino was hardly toxic to the Circle.
Yes he was . Both he and Meredith were the issue with that circle.
And he had no knowledge of Quentin's crimes until well after the fact.
"Your last letter was fascinating! You have proven me wrong, once again, by doing the impossible. I shouldn't have doubted your resolve, and I hope you will keep me apprised of further progress."
I don't think so.
Except for the fact Meredith never knew what Mages under her care did what and never care to and the templers that did were utterly ignored.
Right. Which is why the Seekers should have made an effort to find out. That's the point.
Right. Which is why the Seekers should have made an effort to find out. That's the point.
And don't get me started with the Seekers. The leader at the time was worse then Meredith. Just a barking dog snapping at every thing while chasing his tail. A fearmonger and a warmonger. Why would they look at Kirkwall if Lambert is stating to fix everything by beating it down to it stops?
"Your last letter was fascinating! You have proven me wrong, once again, by doing the impossible. I shouldn't have doubted your resolve, and I hope you will keep me apprised of further progress."
I don't think so.
Right. Which is why the Seekers should have made an effort to find out. That's the point.
Right, and that letter specifically confirmed that what Orsino is praising was the Harvester where? Or that Orsino got explicit knowledge of Quentin's atrocities where?
People look at that letter and apply the Harvester to it, but that's speaking more from what people think then objective facts.
Here's what we know. Quentin was obsessed with bringing his wife back from the dead, so much so that he left the Circle of Starkhaven (as it's implied) and began working on it. He contacted Orsino and requested tomes to help with his research into bringing the dead back to life. Whatever those letters Quentin sent entailed is a mystery, but Quentin -- crazy as he is -- wouldn't have just written "So I pulled a knife on some broad, killed her, hacked her apart, bound a demon to a trinket of hers, and now have gotten some twitching movements in her limbs. PROGRESS!!!".
If anything the man would've kept his research reports detailed to a minimum and not talk of the more unsavory aspects so that he wouldn't alienate the man who described blood magic as "dark arts" (not just to us, but to Quentin himself) from his side.
Literally all we have from that letter is that the two were in correspondence together. Anyone who says Orsino knew for a fact what Quentin was doing is injecting their own bias into the equation.
Frankly I'll believe the man who, when push came to shove, no matter what says the same thing: that he didn't know what Quentin was doing until it was too late, by which time he was between a rock and a hard place. The man's about to off himself in the end. Keeping the truth hidden is at this point not something he cares about doing anymore.
Right, and that letter specifically confirmed that what Orsino is praising was the Harvester where? Or that Orsino got explicit knowledge of Quentin's atrocities where?
People look at that letter and apply the Harvester to it, but that's speaking more from what people think then objective facts.
Here's what we know. Quentin was obsessed with bringing his wife back from the dead, so much so that he left the Circle of Starkhaven (as it's implied) and began working on it. He contacted Orsino and requested tomes to help with his research into bringing the dead back to life. Whatever those letters Quentin sent entailed is a mystery, but Quentin -- crazy as he is -- wouldn't have just written "So I pulled a knife on some broad, killed her, hacked her apart, bound a demon to a trinket of hers, and now have gotten some twitching movements in her limbs. PROGRESS!!!".
If anything the man would've kept his research reports detailed to a minimum and not talk of the more unsavory aspects so that he wouldn't alienate the man who described blood magic as "dark arts" (not just to us, but to Quentin himself) from his side.
Literally all we have from that letter is that the two were in correspondence together. Anyone who says Orsino knew for a fact what Quentin was doing is injecting their own bias into the equation.
Frankly I'll believe the man who, when push came to shove, no matter what says the same thing: that he didn't know what Quentin was doing until it was too late, by which time he was between a rock and a hard place. The man's about to off himself in the end. Keeping the truth hidden is at this point not something he cares about doing anymore.
Because you going to make things clear and detailed in an incriminating letter. 
Sorry, but you're grasping for straws. The letter made it clear that Orsino knew about the blood magic fueled necromancy. The fact remain that Orsino knew. He even tell you this if you side with the templers.
Sorry, but the guy is equally at fault.
Because you going to make things clear and detailed in an incriminating letter.
Sorry, but you're grasping for straws. The letter made it clear that Orsino knew about the blood magic fueled necromancy. The fact remain that Orsino knew. He even tell you this if you side with the templers.
Sorry, but the guy is equally at fault.
Yeah, and if Bethany's in the Circle he says he didn't know the extent of his derangement until it was too late.
So who's grasping at straws here? Seems like you're removing key evidence to suit your own perceptions.
The fact remains that all we have proof of is that Orsino was in correspondence with Quentin but didn't know how nuts he was until it was too late, and then kept his existence a secret because he (rightly) feared Meredith would bring the hammer down on the Mages if she found out, even if he had brought it to her. He was damned either way, and given how off her cork Meredith was I don't hold his decision against him.
Neither does my Hawke, grieved as he was by Leandra's death.
This does not mean he was not party to a crime. As I said, he would legally be an accessory after the fact. If he were to be arrested and tried in our world with what evidence we have to go off of, that's all he could be charged for.
Anything else is speculation without enough backing for it, by people who are content to add 1+1 together and get 11, if not 111.
Retour en haut