875 réponses à ce sujet

[TK514]

I think some people here are mistaking a flaw with the Seeker leadership for a flaw with the Seeker organization. DA:I makes it clear that individual Seekers aren't self-directed agents who go wherever they want, whenever they want. They are told where to go, and when, by their leaders. That is what makes it possible for Lucius to wipe them out. He sets up the ambushes and directs them to walk into it.

It is unfortunate that the organization had two self-destructive leaders in a row, but there is nothing to suggest that was anything other than an unfortunate coincidence. It certainly doesn't point to anything inherent in the organization that warrants its dissolution or makes it an idea that should be discarded. At worst, it highlights a procedural flaw that needs to be reworked in the future to prevent it happening again.

[leaguer of one]

Yeah, and if Bethany's in the Circle he says he didn't know the extent of his derangement until it was too late.

 

So who's grasping at straws here? Seems like you're removing key evidence to suit your own perceptions.

 

The fact remains that all we have proof of is that Orsino was in correspondence with Quentin but didn't know how nuts he was until it was too late, and then kept his existence a secret because he (rightly) feared Meredith would bring the hammer down on the Mages if she found out, even if he had brought it to her. He was damned either way, and given how off her cork Meredith was I don't hold his decision against him.

 

Neither does my Hawke, grieved as he was by Leandra's death.

 

This does not mean he was not party to a crime. As I said, he would legally be an accessory after the fact. If he were to be arrested and tried in our world with what evidence we have to go off of, that's all he could be charged for.

Him saying he did not know the extent of his derangement just means he did not know he was killing woman for his experiments, not that he did not know he was not using blood magic. Sorry but Orsino knew and did nothing about it.

[Vit246]

off-topic-ness is gonna get this locked.

[TEWR]

off-topic-ness is gonna get this locked.

 

Probably.

 

Ameridan is boss. I like to imagine what would've happened if he had lived and met Abelas (ignoring that they're the same VA)

[The Baconer]

Right, and that letter specifically confirmed that what Orsino is praising was the Harvester where? Or that Orsino got explicit knowledge of Quentin's atrocities where?

 

People look at that letter and apply the Harvester to it, but that's speaking more from what people think then objective facts.

 

Here's what we know. Quentin was obsessed with bringing his wife back from the dead, so much so that he left the Circle of Starkhaven (as it's implied) and began working on it. He contacted Orsino and requested tomes to help with his research into bringing the dead back to life. Whatever those letters Quentin sent entailed is a mystery, but Quentin -- crazy as he is -- wouldn't have just written "So I pulled a knife on some broad, killed her, hacked her apart, bound a demon to a trinket of hers, and now have gotten some twitching movements in her limbs. PROGRESS!!!".

 

If anything the man would've kept his research reports detailed to a minimum and not talk of the more unsavory aspects so that he wouldn't alienate the man who described blood magic as "dark arts" (not just to us, but to Quentin himself) from his side.

 

Literally all we have from that letter is that the two were in correspondence together. Anyone who says Orsino knew for a fact what Quentin was doing is injecting their own bias into the equation.

 

Frankly I'll believe the man who, when push came to shove, no matter what says the same thing: that he didn't know what Quentin was doing until it was too late, by which time he was between a rock and a hard place. The man's about to off himself in the end. Keeping the truth hidden is at this point not something he cares about doing anymore.

 

I didn't actually relate any of that to the Harvester itself, only that I doubt Orsino was unaware of the work's unpleasant nature, at least for as long as he implies. Blood magic, modifications of the flesh, transferring organs... I wonder what kind of language someone use to explain things like that, without warranting any suspicion. Especially in a mental state like Quentin's.

 

I think some people here are mistaking a flaw with the Seeker leadership for a flaw with the Seeker organization. DA:I makes it clear that individual Seekers aren't self-directed agents who go wherever they want, whenever they want. They are told where to go, and when, by their leaders. That is what makes it possible for Lucius to wipe them out. He sets up the ambushes and directs them to walk into it.

It is unfortunate that the organization had two self-destructive leaders in a row, but there is nothing to suggest that was anything other than an unfortunate coincidence. It certainly doesn't point to anything inherent in the organization that warrants its dissolution or makes it an idea that should be discarded. At worst, it highlights a procedural flaw that needs to be reworked in the future to prevent it happening again.

 

Templars are not self-directed agents, nor mages of the Circle. And yet, we have multiple individuals from both sides who know better, and aid the Inquisition regardless of which faction is pursued. For the Seekers, Cassandra is literally the only one who has the presence of mind to question how the organization is operating, and then to further act upon these doubts. Everyone else just gets herded along, for years, all the way to Therinfal Redoubt. As it is, I'm not really sorry that they did. If there are survivors, we can only assume they just went AWOL, and hid as the crisis unfolded. I would want to seek out these individuals so that they may be indicted.

 

The problem with rebuilding them is that Cassandra can't even give a straight answer as to how she'll change their practices, or even what the Seekers are supposed to be doing in the first place. In addition to this, I have reservations with some of their most basic procedures, things that Cassandra expressed no desire to change. As such, if I cannot dictate the specific terms of their rebirth, I feel that leaving them dead is the safer option for Thedas.

[leaguer of one]

 

 

Templars are not self-directed agents, nor mages of the Circle. And yet, we have multiple individuals from both sides who know better, and aid the Inquisition regardless of which faction is pursued. For the Seekers, Cassandra is literally the only one who has the presence of mind to question how the organization is operating, and then to further act upon these doubts. Everyone else just gets herded along, for years, all the way to Therinfal Redoubt. As it is, I'm not really sorry that they did. If there are survivors, we can only assume they just went AWOL, and hid as the crisis unfolded. I would want to seek out these individuals so that they may be indicted.

 

The problem with rebuilding them is that Cassandra can't even give a straight answer as to how she'll change their practices, or even what the Seekers are supposed to be doing in the first place. In addition to this, I have reservations with some of their most basic procedures, things that Cassandra expressed no desire to change. As such, if I cannot dictate the specific terms of their rebirth, I feel that leaving them dead is the safer option for Thedas.

I don't believe that at all. Cassandra is not saying she has no anwser but that she need to talk with the group to start changing thing. Added, they are to only non-mage anti-magic/demon group in thedus with no ill effect in using there power. They just need to be restored with out the power they had with new rules not closed off. The issue was how much power the had and there management.

[TEWR]

 

 

For the Seekers, Cassandra is literally the only one who has the presence of mind to question how the organization is operating, and then to further act upon these doubts.

 

This is, of course, assuming the other people seen at the end of DAII weren't Seekers themselves, given they were wearing similar armor. And while Leliana wears the same armor type, she's effectively a Seeker of Truth -- in name and role, rather then ability.

 

Some had to have been loyal to Justinia beyond just Cass. Otherwise I have to believe they, like the Wardens, have the IQ of (as TDKR put it) a bar of soap.

[The Baconer]

I don't believe that at all. Cassandra is not saying she has no anwser but that she need to talk with the group to start changing thing. Added, they are to only non-mage anti-magic/demon group in thedus with no ill effect in using there power. They just need to be restored with out the power they had with new rules not closed off. The issue was how much power the had and there management.

 

She says she wants to reforge the order so that they may do the Maker's work in truth. When asked what that means, she says that she doesn't know for certain.

 

I'm sorry, but we shouldn't be getting stumped at square 1. Their job is to promote stability and fairness within the Circle system. They can worry about the profundities of the divine when they're dead.

 

 

This is, of course, assuming the other people seen at the end of DAII weren't Seekers themselves, given they were wearing similar armor. And while Leliana wears the same armor type, she's effectively a Seeker of Truth -- in name and role, rather then ability.

 

Some had to have been loyal to Justinia beyond just Cass. Otherwise I have to believe they, like the Wardens, have the IQ of (as TDKR put it) a bar of soap.

 

"Indeed, I've seen no hint of any Seekers amongst the Red Templars. Or Anywhere."

 

Perhaps we're aiming a bit too high with 'bar of soap'.

[TK514]

Templars are not self-directed agents, nor mages of the Circle. And yet, we have multiple individuals from both sides who know better, and aid the Inquisition regardless of which faction is pursued. For the Seekers, Cassandra is literally the only one who has the presence of mind to question how the organization is operating, and then to further act upon these doubts. Everyone else just gets herded along, for years, all the way to Therinfal Redoubt. As it is, I'm not really sorry that they did. If there are survivors, we can only assume they just went AWOL, and hid as the crisis unfolded. I would want to seek out these individuals so that they may be indicted.

 

The problem with rebuilding them is that Cassandra can't even give a straight answer as to how she'll change their practices, or even what the Seekers are supposed to be doing in the first place. In addition to this, I have reservations with some of their most basic procedures, things that Cassandra expressed no desire to change. As such, if I cannot dictate the specific terms of their rebirth, I feel that leaving them dead is the safer option for Thedas.

 

The impression I got, and I fully admit I can't point to a specific data point, is that the Seekers, the ACTUAL Seekers as opposed to the Templar troops they can call on, were a relatively tiny organization, even when compared to Mages and definitely when compared to Templars.  As such, their absence could be the result of simple attrition.  There may not have been any Seekers left to show up, especially after the Lord Seeker lost his mind and had them all killed off.

 

As for Cassandra, given her unique status as Hand of the Divine and founder of the Inquisition, I don't really think we can use her as an example of what the rest should or shouldn't have done.

 

I'm also unclear on how the Seekers form a threat to the world that Thedas would be 'safer' without them.  They never had, and given the specifics of their creation, never will have the numbers to be a threat to anyone but those their abilities are specifically created to work against, and their power over other organizations is completely dependent on others for legitimacy.  Again, their failure to uphold their mandate stemmed from a failure of leadership, not because the mandate wasn't worth upholding.  That things got so bad with Templar abuse and Mage duplicity specifically because the Seekers weren't doing  their jobs argues directly that the Seekers, or someone exactly like them with a different name, are necessary in any system that relies on Mage/Protector cooperation.  I would further argue that such an 'internal affairs' organization is just as applicable to the College of Enchanters or the Bright Hand as it would be to any reformed Circle system.

[Xilizhra]

I would further argue that such an 'internal affairs' organization is just as applicable to the College of Enchanters or the Bright Hand as it would be to any reformed Circle system.

Interesting. Seekers affiliated with the College of Enchanters and not the Chantry?

[TK514]

Interesting. Seekers affiliated with the College of Enchanters and not the Chantry?

 

Correct.

[Master Warder Z_]

Correct.

Why not.

Someone has to butcher those idiots if they cross the line.

[Xilizhra]

Correct.

Fair enough. At least they're not addicts, and they can show up when there are actually problems, instead of just hanging around being oppressive.

[Master Warder Z_]

Right because having demons whispering to you every night is indicative of sanity and stability.

I always thought that the addict label was funny due to that.

Because mages are worse.

[Xilizhra]

Right because having demons whispering to you every night is indicative of sanity and stability.

I always thought that the addict label was funny due to that.

Because mages are worse.

From every bit of dialogue we get from mages about the Fade ever, that's a gross exaggeration.

[The Baconer]

The impression I got, and I fully admit I can't point to a specific data point, is that the Seekers, the ACTUAL Seekers as opposed to the Templar troops they can call on, were a relatively tiny organization, even when compared to Mages and definitely when compared to Templars.  As such, their absence could be the result of simple attrition.  There may not have been any Seekers left to show up, especially after the Lord Seeker lost his mind and had them all killed off.

 

Maybe, maybe not. I don't think much of their qualifications even if that is true.

 

 

As for Cassandra, given her unique status as Hand of the Divine and founder of the Inquisition, I don't really think we can use her as an example of what the rest should or shouldn't have done.

 

I will though, because she was a Seeker... the investigation of Kirkwall and the formation of the Inquisition was made possible because she left them.

 

 

I'm also unclear on how the Seekers form a threat to the world that Thedas would be 'safer' without them.  They never had, and given the specifics of their creation, never will have the numbers to be a threat to anyone but those their abilities are specifically created to work against, and their power over other organizations is completely dependent on others for legitimacy. 

 

With the authority and responsibilities afforded them, look what only two managed to achieve. I would not have Thedas suffer the cost of their duplicity, their irresponsibility, or their grasping at power again.

 

 

Again, their failure to uphold their mandate stemmed from a failure of leadership, not because the mandate wasn't worth upholding.  That things got so bad with Templar abuse and Mage duplicity specifically because the Seekers weren't doing  their jobs argues directly that the Seekers, or someone exactly like them with a different name, are necessary in any system that relies on Mage/Protector cooperation.  I would further argue that such an 'internal affairs' organization is just as applicable to the College of Enchanters or the Bright Hand as it would be to any reformed Circle system.

 

Yes, I believe that it is imperative to have an organization that does what the Seekers were supposed to do. I just don't need or want the Seekers to do it.

[Master Warder Z_]

From every bit of dialogue we get from mages about the Fade ever, that's a gross exaggeration.

Uh no, not really.

[Bad King]

They are in the stone age.

 

That's assuming that there's an objective means of categorising Thedassian societies. The idea that societies that use stone are necessarily more backward than societies that use metal which is a dubious assumption. While some of their technology might be less effective than that of their neighbours, this doesn't mean that their society as a whole is wrong about everything while the societies around them are better at everything. Also, the widespread use of metal weaponry amongst the Avvar implies to me that they practice some form of metallurgy.

[Steelcan]

That's assuming that there's an objective means of categorising Thedassian societies. The idea that societies that use stone are necessarily more backward than societies that use metal which is a dubious assumption. While some of their technology might be less effective than that of their neighbours, this doesn't mean that their society as a whole is wrong about everything while the societies around them are better at everything. Also, the widespread use of metal weaponry amongst the Avvar implies to me that they practice some form of metallurgy.

it is whoever indicative of being primitive, forgive me if I do not think that I should live my life according to the beliefs of Amazonian tribes

[Hellion Rex]

If nothing else, I do believe the Chantry does need to fund some more research into spiritual possession and how to remove it. The Avvar seem to have a good formula. Granted, though, the spirit in question was benign the possessed willingly gave up their spirit. The spell might not work with a demon or if the participant is unwilling to rid themselves of the spirit.

[leaguer of one]

Why not.

Someone has to butcher those idiots if they cross the line.

And that's the problem. We don't need anyone to butcher anyone if they cross the line.

[leaguer of one]

it is whoever indicative of being primitive, forgive me if I do not think that I should live my life according to the beliefs of Amazonian tribes

Dude..They're understanding of magic and spirits is head and shoulders over the rest of thedus...That says something.

 

They solved the issue that everyone in thedus been fighting over for the bast 1000 years. Is the rest of thedus that dumb and are the Avvar just that smart?

[Hellion Rex]

Dude..They're understanding of magic and spirits is head and shoulders over the rest of thedus...That says something.

They solved the issue that everyone in thedus been fighting over for the bast 1000 years. Is the rest of thedus that dumb and are the Avvar just that smart?

Everywhere except Tevinter, at least. I would not be surprised if they knew this type of stuff as well

[Steelcan]

Dude..They're understanding of magic and spirits is head and shoulders over the rest of thedus...That says something.

 

They solved the issue that everyone in thedus been fighting over for the bast 1000 years. Is the rest of thedus that dumb and are the Avvar just that smart?

I imagine that Tevinter has better stores of lore and knowledge of magic

[Master Warder Z_]

And that's the problem. We don't need anyone to butcher anyone if they cross the line.

Pacifism? How quaint.

Sheep need a Shepard.