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Where is Shepard exactly during the breath scene?


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#151
ZerebusPrime

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I am about to do something I very rarely do. I am going to quote someone else's entire post in blocks and respond to each block separately. I don't like to do this because it can make the reply seem more flippant than intended; most flame wars I've seen take this form.  However, because the post I am responding to is structured the way it is, I can't just reply with a single or even double block of text and do it justice.  So here we go.

 

 

 

 

If one is to make such an advanced statement like the entire ending is a hallucination - something I have shown and demonstrated using the content in the game itself cannot happen - you need to show what evidence this statement has to support it. And it really needs to be concrete otherwise it comes off as more a fallacious argument than evidence.

 

Basically extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

[/quote]

 

The evidence has long since already been given and you claimed to be familiar with it.  I am also not going to cite something from the Mass Effect game in the Mass Effect forum because it falls under Common Knowledge.

 

 

 

 

People hopped onto IT for largely two reasons

1 - The ending sequence was so impossible that there was NO WAY it could happen

 

2 - IT offered people a way out of the horrible ending since there was, to point one, NO WAY it could be possible and opens plot holes the size of a dreadnaught.

 

 

 

 

See, that's just too cynical.  The Indoctrination Theory is based on in-game evidence that constructs a partial fill for the largest plot holes, not a pitch for a plot hole plug that grabs whatever evidence it can find to support itself.  If I thought it were the latter, I'd have abandoned it.  Arguing that the masses of outraged fans were all looking for an out and chose IT simply because it made them feel good is akin to claiming the bulk of IT'ers are weak minded... which would be an insult.  This is not a good position to take.  Most Mass Effect players I've met, IT'er or otherwise, are reasonably smart people.  Many of us have also lived through bad game endings without freaking out (citation needed! ;-)).

 

 

 

 

There is no way you can make an argument of any kind when the basis of that argument is "It HAS to be a dream - there is absolutely NO WAY that could be happening in reality"

 

 

 

 

IT does not base its argument on this.  It is but one aspect of the breath scene and decision chamber among many other things that build up the theory.  You know that.

 

 

 

This is the issue, if you are going to give true evidence to support your claim you need to cite evidence. If you are saying that IT is and was developer intent AND is replicated by the core product you need to give some sort of citation that shows and demonstrates it.

 

 

 

No I don't.  I constructed a simple argument with common knowledge and gave it a wide degree of leeway.  It's up to MLA standards.

 

 

 

This cannot be some quote like "and if you are still in the rubble" (that came from the citadel DLC I think) or a quote supporting Destroy made by anderson or Javik or citing some note by the IT team in the citadel DLC that stops the combat simulator.

 

Objectively how can a quote from Javik about wanting to destroy the reapers == reapers being able to create a highly detailed dream sequence?

 

 

 

You have used an absurdity as an example. No one has argued that.  No one is arguing that. You know this.

 

 

 

This would be a good citation:

http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination

"Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.

 

Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years. In the case of strong willed victims, the Reaper can create and manipulate the victims ability to perceive false realities in which to lure them to willingly choose to be indoctrinated*"

 

* = What I added in.

 

 

Altering a citation is like linking to a Wiki article and then editing said article yourself to suit your needs.  If you actually demand all debate posts follow the rules of Practical Composition 101, please stick to it.  I would have failed the class if I had done that... and gotten caught. :D     ...no, I never did that.  I wouldn't dare because I can't lie worth ****.

 

 

 

Well...here is something to counter that belief:

 

-Nothing in the core game shows that the reapers can create highly detailed dreamscapes

 

I suppose your only counter to this - objectively - is to say that bioware could implement IT in their next game - via the Ascended Fanon. They could do this, albeit they would need to explain how the events happened - though when the next game is the best place to start I doubt they are going to conclude a 5+ year long story in it. Basically while "what if" is fun, it should never be taken absolutely. In addition, while remaining hopefuly about "what if" can be fun...personally I would rather stay objective and critical.

 

 

 

Actually I pointed out that the ability was added in the Leviathan DLC.  Which it was.  Reapers have perfected the Leviathan's enthrallment abilities in the form of indoctrination which, being a superset ability of the Leviathan's ability, would include the ability to suck a mind into a dreamscape and construct objects and people within that dreamscape to interact with said mind.  You countered on a minor point regarding my saying that Harbinger did this whereas in the base game it could also be a faceless (ha!) Reaper. (It's funny 'cause Harbinger has a smiley face!  ....right, moving on then.)

 

I don't take much absolutely.  I like apples.  I am willing, however, to take a stand at the edge of the plank and risk being proven wrong.

 

 

 

 

I think the best way to communicate this is:  You don't believe all the stuff in the Scary Door is real or even replicated in the core game right? That is all speculation on what COULD be possible, what some WANT it to be or just blatant headcanon.

 

So...again. If you want to have IT as YOUR interpretation of how the game and the series ended - this is perfect. Bioware wants us to be able to choose our own ending. To them IT is just as valid as Green or Blue or Red or the Dinosaur Ending or the Rychnol Theory.

 

 

 

 

Bad Sushi Theory FTW!  Incidentally, Bad Sushi Theory is also an absurdity.  Also, I had never gotten around to reading the replies to that thing.  Heh heh heh.

 

 

 

 

But if you are going to say that IT was the core product - and all you do is cite speculations, quotes about the destroy ending, and fall back on "It HAS to be a dream...there is NO WAY that [event] could be happening". This is very bad...and I have pointed out why it is bad.

 

 

 

Guilty?  There's only so much work I'm going to put into this thread, after all.  And again, I thought you were already familiar with the material.

 

 

 

I am happy you are getting new hats though...those old ones were starting to lose their shine.

 

 

 

.....that just means the hats are working. :alien:  :alien:  :alien:  :alien:  :alien: 

 

 

Lastly, I predict Street Magic will like both of our posts within 24 hours.

 



#152
Ithurael

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No need to think I am going for a flame war. I am just trying to be precise

 

 

 

The evidence has long since already been given and you claimed to be familiar with it.  I am also not going to cite something from the Mass Effect game in the Mass Effect forum because it falls under Common Knowledge.

 

A few things:

1 - None of the links on that work, I suppose I am going to have to go through each video. However, after seeing the clevernoob videos I can say that the whole "it HAS to be a Dream - what else can it be" argument is used more often than not. Even Noob himself said he wanted to leverage IT as a way out of the bad ending.

 

OK, I am looking at some of the videos

Fredy Castenada

- Focusing more on issues and errors in the ending. Nowhere does he say anything or cite anything from the existing trilogy showing how Harbinger or the Sovvy Class reaper can create this dreamscape? He is just focusing again and again on plot holes and inconsistencies

- Uses the term Evidence even when applying his interpretation of the Serve Us segment

 

Now to this one

- I like how he looked at the sounds. But again...this does not show us anything from the game about reapers creating a false reality. It more focused on the dumb dreams. I do like how he even poses a question at the end: Are the dreams just PTSD...or are they early signs of Indoctrination.

This can be easily countered mainly because the symptoms of indoctrination do not include dreams - at all. This is shown in the codex.

 

Essentially, are there any videos, reviews, anything that follow the three T's?

Tell them what you are going to tell them: Cite how indoctrination works and cite all the symptoms

Tell them: Compare what you know about indoctrination to the ending sequence

Tell them what you told them: Review the comparison and look for correlations.

 

I will look over some of the others, but you can see my point I hope. Essentially, just cite something objectively tangible from the lore that is not an assumption. Otherwise...*sniff...implications unpleasant...

 

 

2 - To the underlined: All you need to do is give me a codex entry, a mission, a piece of dialog that shows us that reapers can created highly advanced an intricate dreamscapes.

To which...you tried:

 

 

Actually I pointed out that the ability was added in the Leviathan DLC.  Which it was.  Reapers have perfected the Leviathan's enthrallment abilities in the form of indoctrination which, being a superset ability of the Leviathan's ability, would include the ability to suck a mind into a dreamscape and construct objects and people within that dreamscape to interact with said mind.  You countered on a minor point regarding my saying that Harbinger did this whereas in the base game it could also be a faceless (ha!) Reaper. (It's funny 'cause Harbinger has a smiley face!  ....right, moving on then.)

 

I don't take much absolutely.  I like apples.  I am willing, however, to take a stand at the edge of the plank and risk being proven wrong.

 

What we know:

- Enthrallment is temporary

- Indoctrination is permanent

- They both start out as a signal

 

That is perfected in any sense of definition.

 

What we see:

- With enthrallment we see a rudimentary dreamscape with shifting characters. With IT we see a fake confrontation with TIM, A very elaborate decision chamber, an ending cinematic (if the dream reality is constructed from his memories - when has shepard seen a giant RGB energy blast, or seen a greenish galaxy?), slideshows, and a memorial scene (then in the one ending where shepard wasn't dissolved we see a torso take a breath) Never has shepard stood in the decision chamber. How was that made from memory if he was never in it? The whole "overturned mako" that is not proof..that is speculation. Where - anywhere - is it shown that reapers make elaborate dreamsequences? Not to mention - on a more personal level - it is more effort than necessary. Indoctrination - as show by the codex and the game - doesn't need choice. It just takes you.

 

But back to the Leviathan argument. Saying that if Harbinger was created from Leviathans then it can create dreamscapes is a fallacy. It is called Affirming the Consequent (and I have linked it many times).

 

When you base an argument on a fallacy - or even an assumption - your argument holds no weight. Thus, why you can see why I have such issue when ITers point out this 'Proof'

 

 

See, that's just too cynical.  The Indoctrination Theory is based on in-game evidence that constructs a partial fill for the largest plot holes, not a pitch for a plot hole plug that grabs whatever evidence it can find to support itself.  If I thought it were the latter, I'd have abandoned it.  Arguing that the masses of outraged fans were all looking for an out and chose IT simply because it made them feel good is akin to claiming the bulk of IT'ers are weak minded... which would be an insult.  This is not a good position to take.  Most Mass Effect players I've met, IT'er or otherwise, are reasonably smart people.  Many of us have also lived through bad game endings without freaking out (citation needed! ;-)).

 

Here, the bolded, is where I need to step in. IT is based on in game aspects: Reaper indoctrination is true and exists. What IT does however is it takes those real aspects of the game - twists it with player headcanon - and then builds the arguments and interpretation from that. And then it reinforces itself by filling in the plotholes that no one can explain rationally using the lore.

 

The ending wasn't peer reviewed...anything that is both rushed and not peer reviewed WILL have plotholes

 

 

Altering a citation is like linking to a Wiki article and then editing said article yourself to suit your needs.  If you actually demand all debate posts follow the rules of Practical Composition 101, please stick to it.  I would have failed the class if I had done that... and gotten caught. :D     ...no, I never did that.  I wouldn't dare because I can't lie worth ****.

 

I was trying to make it shorter so I could demonstrate the point. I know I altered the citation - I italicized it. If, however, you are talking about my reducing the size of the codex entry. I assure you I had no ill will, I just wanted to get to the point ASAP. And if THAT is what you are going to try to poison the well on me with...*shakes head.

 

Here is something that could give IT not only plausibility but possibility in the current ME universe

source

Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.

Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting chaos can bring down nations.

Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years. In certain cases against strong willed victims, the Reaper can manipulate the victims perception of reality - creating dream like states - where the victim willingly chooses to be indoctrinated*

 

*= The italicized was what I added and was an example of in-universe explanation you could use to strengthen your claims

 

Do you have anything solid like this (the italicized) from the game, lore, books, dialog, or cutscenes?

 

 

No I don't.  I constructed a simple argument with common knowledge and gave it a wide degree of leeway.  It's up to MLA standards.

 

Yes...yes you really do. You are the one postulating that the entire ending sequence was a detailed dream reality that has never once been shown to occur in the universe. Your arguments are BASED on common knowledge but devolve into your interpretation. You then seem to see the interpretation of the common knowledge of ME as the NEW version of it and then build your entire interpretation from there. Also, to make a rational, reasonable, and coherent argument you NEED to show what you are basing it on. I have shown why I don't think IT is or was intended.

 

So - if you are going to say you are basing EVERYTHING on Leviathan DLC. Well I have already shown you that doing so is not only fallacious but inaccurate.

 

 

I don't take much absolutely.  I like apples.  I am willing, however, to take a stand at the edge of the plank and risk being proven wrong.

 

We have shown you that there is nothing in the ME Universe that can create detailed dreamscapes = you decide to headcanon that Harbinger can do it anyway based on the Affirming the Consequent Fallacy.

We have cited tweets and posts from bioware showing that IT is a fan interpretation and Shep is on the citadel = You ignore and apply a "wait and see" approach for the next game

We have cited how indoctrination itself works and shown that indoctrination - as shown in the codex - does not Trick you into getting indoctrinated- it just dominates you.

We have shown the 'hallucination' portion of indoctrination which was fleeting at best.

EDIT: And, now thanks to MrFob, we can see that the devs themselves consider - even in the game code - the green ending the 'best ending'

 

There WAS an indoctrination segment in ME3 - the TIM boss battle. Everything we know and will know about reaper indoctrination was RIGHT THERE.

- Oily shadows

- Reaper noises

- Headaches

- (not sure if shep saw the shadows...but I know we did so that could count as hallucinations I suppose)

 

There was nothing in the starbrat segment that mirrored this. Nor any of these symptoms.

 

Basically this seems to be a case of "I reject your reality and substitute my own" at this point. And I know that is what the case will be.

 

You can believe in IT if you want - and lord I know you will - but that is your interpretation of how you wanted the story to end. That is not reflected in the game.

 

Deep down I think you want to have JUST enough doubt that you can keep speculating. But that isn't going to work here. The content has spoken for itself and what IT is saying is happening is not what is happening in the core game. IT can happen for YOUR playthroughs. But that is all.

 

I will admit...I do not like apples...


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#153
AlanC9

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I don't take much absolutely.  I like apples.  I am willing, however, to take a stand at the edge of the plank and risk being proven wrong.


Not much of a risk there. The theory isn't vulnerable to evidence-based arguments, and Bio has shown no interest in disillusioning folks.

#154
TurianRebel212

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Aria's vagina. 


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