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[Rekkampum]

Thedas dodged a bullet on that one

 

Or it could've been Hawke that magically thwarted Coryphyshiteheel's plan and stolen the Anchor. But that is an interesting what-if scenario that I'm certain has inspired several bad fanfics.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Name me one of our companions who isn't cheating, stealing, killing or lying. I guess everyone is a bad guy.

Here's two: Cassandra and Dorian

 

Do they cheat? No

Do they steal? No

Do they kill? No(I hope you realize by kill I mean murder, right?)

Do they lie? No

[Lady Artifice]

Name me one of our companions who isn't cheating, stealing, killing or lying. I guess everyone is a bad guy.

 

By standards that strict--consistently applied--most of them would be, especially apostate bloodmages who break the law with every spell they cast and book they read. This moral code is really erratic. 

[Shadow Fox]

Here's two: Cassandra and Dorian

 

Do they cheat? No

Do they steal? No

Do they kill? No(I hope you realize by kill I mean murder, right?)

Do they lie? No

Well Cass did kidnap Varric and was perfectly willing to execute the Inquisitor.

[silencekills]

I liked Lyons' Brotherhood of Steel myself.

 

I didn't like the fact that despite being a Paragon of the Wastes, bailing their arses out of the fire on more than one occasion, doing odd jobs for them, and surviving and thriving in incredible hostile situations...and doing it easily they still talked down to me and generally were ungrateful arseholes. Finishing up Broken Steel and at the end, thinking i'm not going to do the thing, and then Sentinel Lyons had to have one last remark.

 

One last remark.

 

 

 

Also, this whole 'bad guy' argument is really stupid.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well Cass did kidnap Varric and was perfectly willing to execute the Inquisitor.

Not kidnap, arrest. Do you consider a cop who arrests a criminal a kidnapper? 

And where? She says there will be a trial and asks why they shouldn't kill you when you were the prime suspect of a massacre. 

[congokong]

Those two side quests you mentioned are ones I liked. If anything, the weird one involving "grandpa" was absurd. You also have that deal with Imshael and also the noble in Sera's sidequest, which lead to rather screwed up consequences; the former can be arguably considered evil.
 

I think it's important to remember that as your character is the Inquisitor, with an inner circle and advisors, doing "evil" things necessarily wouldn't make sense from a narrative perspective, as they clearly wouldn't allow you to - especially Leliana. This isn't a personal narrative like the story of the Warden and Hawke are; thus, certain aspects are limited. What Inquisition does allow, however, are more morally grey decisions, some of which can be interpreted as "evil" or at the very least, unethical; forcing Blackwall into servitude, rendering mages tranquil, and a few others, likely from the judgment decisions you have.

 

I also think it's safe to say that there's no way in the Black City that Lucius would've left that place alive with Cassandra in your party, even if the option to bargain was possible. You are able to bargain with Calpernia at least if you did her related quest, which I tend to do now.

You can love sidequests that many find to be stupid and a waste of the Inquisitor's time if you want.

 

People like Leliana aren't even in your party during quests; not that she could stop me.. DA:O had tons of options to kill people for no good reason. There's actually some reason to kill Bianca but the poor role-playing, and Bianca's plot armor, left the pc a mute as she walked away scot-free.

 

And lastly, I could never be such a bleeding heart that I'd spare Calpernia after all the damage she caused.

[LobselVith8]

I didn't like the fact that despite being a Paragon of the Wastes, bailing their arses out of the fire on more than one occasion, doing odd jobs for them, and surviving and thriving in incredible hostile situations...and doing it easily they still talked down to me and generally were ungrateful arseholes. Finishing up Broken Steel and at the end, thinking i'm not going to do the thing, and then Sentinel Lyons had to have one last remark.

 

One last remark.

 

Lyons' Brotherhood of Steel seemed pretty friendly to me, especially in comparison to the Outcasts, who treat you horribly for being an outsider. Lyons, Sarah, and a few others have a high opinion of you within the Brotherhood when you've helped them out, and Lyons even shares the secret of wearing power armor with you before you actually join the organization; Sarah even eludes to the idea that there could have been a romance between the two of you if things were different at the end of Broken Steel. Random Brotherhood soldiers even greet you by your new rank once you've become a Knight.

 

Compare them to the Western Brotherhood, especially the Mojave Brotherhood, with the jerks who wipe out the Followers' Outpost and try to kill Veronica and your Courier.

[silencekills]

Not kidnap, arrest. Do you consider a cop who arrests a criminal a kidnapper? 

And where? She says there will be a trial and asks why they shouldn't kill you when you were the prime suspect of a massacre. 

 

Say, why did Cass arrest Varric? I could think up a few reasons, but what was the in-game reason?

[Ynqve]

Here's two: Cassandra and Dorian

 

Do they cheat? No

Do they steal? No

Do they kill? No(I hope you realize by kill I mean murder, right?)

Do they lie? No

 

Cass and Dorian are both willing to participate in any killing the Inquisitor deems necessary, no matter how petty or unjustified it is. And they don't seem to mind the Inquisitor looting everything that isn't nailed down. Hell, technically speaking the whole premise of in hushed whispers is breaking in to a guys home to kill him and steal a fancy amulet.

 

And I love how you changed the premise all of a sudden. The only time I can think of Varric committing murder is if you bring him with you for All That Remains and he shoots Gascard. But that guy deserved it. 

[KaiserShep]

Dragon Age just isn't Dragon Age without murdering people and taking their stuff. Like wiping out Dalish clans, it's a time-honored tradition.

[congokong]

He cheats, he steals, he kills, he lies, etc. Yes, he is a bad guy. 

 

Fine. 

I've always considered Varric a "bad guy" by modern standards. He's a criminal who, if exposed, would be rotting in jail. He prefers non-violent means to get his way and is willing to help save the world, but the same can be said for many real-life criminals. Most "bad people" aren't black/white evil like Corypheus. Him being fun to be around doesn't negate this; although you can see the emotional bias he has on fans.

 

When role-playing you have to overlook that many of your companions are bad people. Zevran, Sten, Leliana, Morrigan, Oghren, Isabela, Varric, Blackwall, Iron Bull (for being a mercenary), and Vivienne (a ruthless player of the game who potentially kills a man upon request when you first meet her) I'd all considered bad people.

 

The same applies to Mass Effect. Wrex, Jack, Thane, Grunt, Zaeed, and Kasumi I'd all consider bad people. I might be missing a few.

[KaiserShep]

My Hawke's a thief and a murderer, but she did it to the people that needed it to happen so it's all good.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Say, why did Cass arrest Varric? I could think up a few reasons, but what was the in-game reason?

Aiding and abetting enemies of the Chantry, including the terrorist Anders and at the time thought to be(and possibly could have been) accomplice Hawke. 

 

 

Cass and Dorian are both willing to participate in any killing the Inquisitor deems necessary, no matter how petty or unjustified it is. And they don't seem to mind the Inquisitor looting everything that isn't nailed down. Hell, technically speaking the whole premise of in hushed whispers is breaking in to a guys home to kill him and steal a fancy amulet.

 

And I love how you changed the premise all of a sudden. The only time I can think of Varric committing murder is if you bring him with you for All That Remains and he shoots Gascard. But that guy deserved it. 

Examples of this willingness to murder? 

One can argue gameplay/lore segregation when it comes to nobody saying anything when you loot, since even characters who in conversations condemn stealing don't comment on you doing it. 

You can try to get the amulet peacefully. 

 

I never changed the premise. I just decided to wax poetic and write the things as they are in the Ten Commandments. 

And whether a guy deserves it or not does not excuse murdering said person. 

 

But go ahead Bianca is treated as a demon while holding Varric up on a pedestal when in truth they are exactly the same. 

[congokong]

Cass and Dorian are both willing to participate in any killing the Inquisitor deems necessary, no matter how petty or unjustified it is. And they don't seem to mind the Inquisitor looting everything that isn't nailed down. Hell, technically speaking the whole premise of in hushed whispers is breaking in to a guys home to kill him and steal a fancy amulet.

 

And I love how you changed the premise all of a sudden. The only time I can think of Varric committing murder is if you bring him with you for All That Remains and he shoots Gascard. But that guy deserved it. 

When does this game let you kill someone for petty/unjustified reasons? Read the OP. There are practically no options of being evil.

 

You consider stopping Alexius, a Venatori building an army in service to Corypheus and who stole Redcliffe castle, "breaking into a guys home to kill him and steal a fancy amulet"?!

 

I know Dorian is strongly against murder from his romance quest. He's disgusted if you kill the man trying to squeeze favors out of the Inquisition in return for Dorian's amulet.

[Ynqve]

When does this game let you kill someone for petty/unjustified reasons? Read the OP. There are practically no options of being evil.

 

You consider stopping Alexius, a Venatori building an army in service to Corypheus and who stole Redcliffe castle, "breaking into a guys home to kill him and steal a fancy amulet"?!

 

I know Dorian is strongly against murder from his romance quest. He's disgusted if you kill the man trying to squeeze favors out of the Inquisition in return for Dorian's amulet.

 

I was just making an exaggerated point to counter what I saw as an exaggerated and frankly ridiculous argument. I have no problem with a grey/grey morality, which is why I find it hilarious when other people try to force a strict black/white morality on a world or characters where it doesn't fit. Based on the list that Hanako provided of what makes you a bad guy, I dare say 99.9 % of humanity would qualify as bad. 

[congokong]

I was just making an exaggerated point to counter what I saw as an exaggerated and frankly ridiculous argument. I have no problem with a grey/grey morality, which is why I find it hilarious when other people try to force a strict black/white morality on a world or characters where it doesn't fit. Based on the list that Hanako provided of what makes you a bad guy, I dare say 99.9 % of humanity would qualify as bad. 

I get it. I suppose the way I'd define "bad people" is largely by westernized modern standards including doing things I'd consider just cut-and-dry evil; debatably unable to achieve redemption. Ex: Sten strangling children.

 

Zevran, Sten, Leliana, Morrigan, Oghren, Isabela, Varric, Blackwall, Iron Bull (for being a mercenary), and Vivienne (a ruthless player of the game who potentially kills a man upon request when you first meet her) I'd all consider bad people.

 

I don't know if Varric has ordered or personally murdered anyone; particularly an innocent. But he is a criminal with organized crime ties. Hence being a "bad person."

[KaiserShep]

The entire Merchants Guild is pretty much a ruthless band of murderous businessmen/women.

[Shadow Fox]

Not kidnap, arrest. Do you consider a cop who arrests a criminal a kidnapper? 

And where? She says there will be a trial and asks why they shouldn't kill you when you were the prime suspect of a massacre. 

Lawful arrest=Due process where was that with Varric?

 

And Cass isn't a cop the City Guard are cops Cass is more akin to CIA.

 

Except for her having to be held back by Leliana when she loses her temper and that Solas says she threatened to have him executed as an accomplice when he couldn't wake you up and she ran out of patience?

[silencekills]

99.9 %

 

wat

 

I thought that was saying all of those requirements must be met.

 

 

And about the post above this one. I don't know about the first two, but the last thing was EXACTLY what I was thinking about when I read the one it's replying to.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Aiding and abetting enemies of the Chantry, including the terrorist Anders and at the time thought to be(and possibly could have been) accomplice Hawke. 

 

What's funny is that if Hawke romanced Anders, Varric knows where Anders is and apparently Cassandra also knows this yet is totally cool with this. So Cass is okay with Anders being if Hawke romanced him.

[KaiserShep]

Hey well Solas does look pretty suspicious, with his beady eyes and shaved scalp.

[Shadow Fox]

I get it. I suppose the way I'd define "bad people" is largely by westernized modern standards including doing things I'd consider just cut-and-dry evil; debatably unable to achieve redemption. Ex: Sten strangling children.

 

Zevran, Sten, Leliana, Morrigan, Oghren, Isabela, Varric, Blackwall, Iron Bull (for being a mercenary), and Vivienne (a ruthless player of the game who potentially kills a man upon request when you first meet her) I'd all consider bad people.

 

I don't know if Varric has ordered or personally murdered anyone; particularly an innocent. But he is a criminal with organized crime ties. Hence being a "bad person."

Why Oghren and Bull*he's a mercenary sure but an ethical one*?

[congokong]

Lawful arrest=Due process where was that with Varric?

 

And Cass isn't a cop the City Guard are cops Cass is more akin to CIA.

 

Except for her having to be held back by Leliana when she loses her temper and that Solas says she threatened to have him executed as an accomplice when he couldn't wake you up and she ran out of patience?

Think of the seekers like Mass Effect's spectres. Only the council indirectly watches them. In Cassandra's case it was Divine Justinia. They're expected to act responsibly with their authority.

 

She can kidnap, and even kill, people in order to achieve her objective. The kidnapping may have been necessary to get information. Since she's a good person she'd not murder someone in cold blood. Once you get to know her it's obvious she was merely trying to intimidate Solas when threatening him. You don't have to be a saint to be a good person IMO.

[congokong]

Why Oghren and Bull*he's a mercenary sure but an ethical one*?

1. They both enjoy killing way too much.

2. Oghren killed a man in a duel to first blood; all over a comment about Branka.

3. I don't believe there are truly ethical mercenaries. You kill for whoever pays you. That very premise is unethical.