165 réponses à ce sujet

[Mcfly616]

Annoyingly not the inspiration for all the minutes preceding the ending. It's not a good idea to write in a grander, contradictory, and quite evidently convoluted theme after the climax.

 seemed like the climax to me. Perspectives and all that....

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 This whole Catalyst/Leviathan business is kind of funny, in a frustrating sort of way, because the stated "goal" of The Intelligence always seems to change a bit. The Catalyst calls the Reapers a "solution" to continual conflict between organics and synthetics (indicating that his goal is to end said conflicts), but then Leviathan's DLC indicates that it tasked the AI with preserving organic life (whatever the cost), and then the Extended Cut adds a line where the Catalyst says his job is to "establish a connection" between organics and synthetics. Synthesis is said to be the optimal solution to the thing the Catalyst is tasked with solving, but, which one is it, exactly??

 

What Synthesis seems to achieve is some new connection to synthetic life. What I took away from the presentation is that organics can now access cyberspace on a mental level, something innate and previously exclusive to all forms of synthetics. I imagine that such a thing could lead to improved (safer, more efficient) communication between both realms of life.

 

Also, organics often put themselves at the mercy of machines in their everyday life, and machines (even if not AI) can deviate from their intended purpose, the consequences of which can range from [minor annoyances] to [loss of lives]. If organics exist in a state where -- with only little help -- they can think/react as fast as the machines they depend on, problems and solutions can perhaps be identified more readily and greatly deter or mitigate the damage of deviations.

[The Arbiter]

One of the things I never quite understood about Synthesis, is why the Catalyst believes this solution will bring about eternal peace.

 

There a lot of elements from this ending that could be singled out for being nonsensical, but I'm going to focus on it as a solution to war. The Catalyst believes that synthetics and organics are so different from one another that they cannot coexist, and it sees war and possibly extinction as an inevitable conclusion. It's solution then is to turn both into cyborgs, in the belief that eliminating differences between them will allow them to coexist.

 

But here is where it fails: War is not driven by physical differences. Wars are caused by differences in ideology. Assuming for a moment that the Catalyst is correct about war being synthetics and organics being inevitable, the reason for that war would not be because the two look different from one another...that war would spring from the fact that their minds are alien compared to the other. So as a solution synthesis would not guarantee peace, unless it also altered their minds to be similar and and in lock step. In which case, we are now talking about something similar to indoctrination.

EXACTLY! Macfly told me "you are assuming that Synthetics thinks like Organics" WTF His statement is contradicting his own ideas that AI and Synthetic are self aware.

 

SELF AWARENESS = Self Interest, Free will, own ideology, own culture, own understandings.

 

Wars are driven not because of physical form and you are absolutely correct on this but because of "differences in Self Interest, Free will, own ideology, own culture, and own understandings".

 

There are many species of wars - International conflicts, non- international conflicts, identity conflicts, Anarchic conflicts and many more!

 

I have been studying political science for the past 4 fuqing years and wars are always driven because of politics and interest!

 

if Legion disagreed with other synthetics then that is a huge proof the smoking gun that they themselves can not co-exist with one another. The solution of the Catalyst is flawed and outdated. Even today in our own world the only thing keeping peace and preventing each super powers from encroaching on one's borders and setting up a de-facto government are NUCLEAR WEAPONS OPERATION M.A.D. Mutually Assured Destruction as well as laws and sanctions against aggressive wars and war crimes.

 

But but the Catalyst did everything it could to solve war between the Organics and Synthetics... not quite! I did not see the Reapers attempting to contact the Synthetics or Organics themselves in an attempt to settle the dispute amicably in a Reaper court or something... what they did was indoctrinate everyone or combined them so they would just shut the hell up what the hell. Besides it would be silly to see Harbinger as a Judge, A destroyer Reaper as a Galactic Prosecutor for the Geth and a Sovereign as the Defense counsel for the Quarians lmao

 

The Geth and Quarians in Rannoch cooperating with one another is living proof that there can be peace without synthesis. If another group of synthetics assuming arguendo appears out of nowhere and attempts to destabilize peace, that war would not only be fought by Organics, but will be fought by Organics and Synthetics against Rogue Synthetics and or Organics who hunger for power.

 

The Geth accepts that they are created by the Quarians, the Quarians accepts that they created the Geth. The Geth Acknowledges that they used to be tools, the Quarians Acknowledges they created the Geth as tools for different purposes or all at once, the Geth began questioning why? the Quarians reacted irrationally instead of explaining or communicating with them = MORNING WAR.

 

300 years later or more Shepard, Legion, Admiral Koris, Tali'Zorah ended this misunderstandings via diplomacy. The Geth then  Acknowledges that they used to be tools, the Quarians Acknowledges they created the Geth as tools for different purposes or all at once, the Geth began to question if they have a soul, the Quarians Acknwoledges yes they have a soul, the Geth then offered assistance and served the Quarians again as a sign of peace and prosperity without having to merge their minds together because now the Geth has achieved self identity and has accepted their faith as one independent Nation, and on top of that they also acknowledges there could have been no Geth without their creators. The Geth are far superior than the Quarians in everyway and they can easily kill all Quarians if they wanted too but they didn't why? because they acknowledge that their could have been no Geth without the Quarians and they owe their creators a debt which is existence in return the Quarians has accepted the Geth as part of them and now they have a common goal and ideology which is Peace and prosperity as well as EXISTENCE of both Independent Nations without merging their physical and intellectual organs. Even without all of these the Geth where never hostile they just wanted to "exist" as an independent Nation minding their own business but the Quarians kept on bombarding them unable to accept the "evolution" of the Geth. This is like the Israeli and Palestinian war... Palestine and the Jews used to live together and then when the Jews after World War II created their own government which obviously has government, territory, people and most importantly sovereignty... things began to spiral out of control clashes between people between sovereigns between cultures and ideoligies, the Palestinians where firing rockets at Israel so did Israel, Most not all Palestinians thinks that Jews are land-grabbers and back stabbers, Most Jews not all thinks that Palestinians are squatters. TWO WORLD LEADERS FROM BOTH SIDES ATTEMPTED TO FIX THIS PROBLEM VIA DIPLOMACY... YITZAK RABEEN AND YASSER ARAFAT... both where assassinated

 

[Abelas Forever!]

One of the things I never quite understood about Synthesis, is why the Catalyst believes this solution will bring about eternal peace.

 

There a lot of elements from this ending that could be singled out for being nonsensical, but I'm going to focus on it as a solution to war. The Catalyst believes that synthetics and organics are so different from one another that they cannot coexist, and it sees war and possibly extinction as an inevitable conclusion. It's solution then is to turn both into cyborgs, in the belief that eliminating differences between them will allow them to coexist.

 

But here is where it fails: War is not driven by physical differences. Wars are caused by differences in ideology. Assuming for a moment that the Catalyst is correct about war being synthetics and organics being inevitable, the reason for that war would not be because the two look different from one another...that war would spring from the fact that their minds are alien compared to the other. So as a solution synthesis would not guarantee peace, unless it also altered their minds to be similar and and in lock step. In which case, we are now talking about something similar to indoctrination.

One thing that has to be remembered is that Leviathans created the Catalyst and they thought that synthetics will always destroy organics because that happened to organics in their lifetime. So when they created that AI they programmed it to think like that. The logic behind the synthesis is that when you unite organics and synthetics there isn't two sperate sides anymore but instead one combined entity so the synthetics can't destroy organics anymore and that is the goal that Catalyst tries to achieve.

[katamuro]

One thing that has to be remembered is that Leviathans created the Catalyst and they thought that synthetics will always destroy organics because that happened to organics in their lifetime. So when they created that AI they programmed it to think like that. The logic behind the synthesis is that when you unite organics and synthetics there isn't two sperate sides anymore but instead one combined entity so the synthetics can't destroy organics anymore and that is the goal that Catalyst tries to achieve.

 

And will fail horribly because unless all new synth-organics are mind controlled someone can still create pure synthetics restarting the whole thing. For example, volus have gone power-mad and unable to fight a war with other species create synthetic soldiers to fight for them, to kill everyone who is not vol-clan. Not likely but the same thing can be applied to any number of species we havent met yet. 

Unless synthesis controls the minds of the people there is nothing stopping that from happening. 

[Abelas Forever!]

And will fail horribly because unless all new synth-organics are mind controlled someone can still create pure synthetics restarting the whole thing. For example, volus have gone power-mad and unable to fight a war with other species create synthetic soldiers to fight for them, to kill everyone who is not vol-clan. Not likely but the same thing can be applied to any number of species we havent met yet. 

Unless synthesis controls the minds of the people there is nothing stopping that from happening. 

But those synthetics wouldn't be killing organics anymore. They would be killing cyborgs which is not the same as organics. So the AI solves the problem by changing the organics into something else and has that way filled its purpose. Anyway I think the AI has already failed in preserving the organics because they don't exist anymore. There are only cyborgs left.

[katamuro]

But those synthetics wouldn't be killing organics anymore. They would be killing cyborgs which is not the same as organics. So the AI solves the problem by changing the organics into something else and has that way filled its purpose. Anyway I think the AI has already failed in preserving the organics because they don't exist anymore. There are only cyborgs left.

Thats true I didnt think about that. 

Yup. 

[Guanxii]

"Peace - a static mode of existence - nothing grows, nothing changes".

Javik and the Protheans and to a lesser extent the Krogan believe that we will only continue to evolve as species if we are being constantly challenged both militarily and intellectually: overcoming these challenges is part of evolution and how we will master nature itself. So in essence once any civilization reaches the singularity without synthetics to continually raise the bar organics will stagnate at type i-ii and never full fill our true potential. If we can't continually overcome nature's tests perhaps the reality is we longer derserve to exist.

The unfortunate reality of the Protheans was that they were so advanced that their challenges lead them to barbarism. Technological advancement didn't enrich their existence, it was living nightmare for them well before the reapers which is why I'm so conflicted about not submitting to synthesis. We might end up regretting it deeply despite how abhorrent it is as a solution.

[katamuro]

"Peace - a static mode of existence - nothing grows, nothing changes".

Javik and the Protheans and to a lesser extent the Krogan believe that we will only continue to evolve as species if we are being constantly challenged both militarily and intellectually: overcoming these challenges is part of evolution and how we will master nature itself. So in essence once any civilization reaches the singularity without synthetics to continually raise the bar organics will stagnate at type i-ii and never full fill our true potential. If we can't continually overcome nature's tests perhaps the reality is we longer derserve to exist.

The unfortunate reality of the Protheans was that they were so advanced that their challenges lead them to barbarism. Technological advancement didn't enrich their existence, it was living nightmare for them well before the reapers which is why I'm so conflicted about not submitting to synthesis. We might end up regretting it deeply despite how abhorrent it is as a solution.

 

Part of the prothean problem came from their knowledge about the reaper cycles. So they went on a massive effort to become strong enough to resist them. Which lead to the excesses. When there are several civilizations already existing like in ME and new ones coming out(there was a new one in ME3 but never shown just mentioned on the news) it will challenge the system and each other. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

"Peace - a static mode of existence - nothing grows, nothing changes".

 

Garrus: "And we all got to live another day. Nice chatting."

 

I'm with Garrus on that one.

[Guanxii]

Garrus: "And we all got to live another day. Nice chatting."

Well except for EDI and the Geth.

[Guanxii]

Part of the prothean problem came from their knowledge about the reaper cycles. So they went on a massive effort to become strong enough to resist them. Which lead to the excesses. When there are several civilizations already existing like in ME and new ones coming out(there was a new one in ME3 but never shown just mentioned on the news) it will challenge the system and each other.

It's impossible to know whether they were always warlike or the 'cosmic imperative' was a reaction to their environment. As their advancement and empire spread the rest of the galaxy rose to the challenge which drove them further down that path. Eventually all organics were united against the Protheans' metacon synthetics which were magnitudes more dangerous that anything we would have encountered. I'm fearful that as repulsive and primitive as they seam now destroy will lead us down the Protheans path because it's unavoidable as peace is not the natural order and the risks and stakes get so great that you teater on a knife edge and are forced to lose sight of your very humanity just to survive - as the universe reacts in kind.

[katamuro]

It's impossible to know whether they were always warlike or the 'cosmic imperative' was a reaction to their environment. As their advancement and empire spread the rest of the galaxy rose to the challenge which drove them further down that path. Eventually all organics were united against the Protheans' metacon synthetics which were magnitudes more dangerous that anything we would have encountered. I'm fearful that as repulsive and primitive as they seam now destroy will lead us down the Protheans path because it's unavoidable as the risks and stakes get so great that you are force to lose sight of your very humanity just to survive.

 

You are forgetting that it is extremely likely that the metacon war like the geth invasion of Eden Prime and events of ME1 were caused by Sovereign or some other reaper preparing the galaxy for Reaper invasion. After all a weakened prothean empire is what they would want.

And without Reapers we can take our sweet time getting synthetics to be good. And anyway would you accept being imprisoned for the rest of your life on the grounds that it will be safer for you? Letting someone else take all the decisions because they "know best". 

Just because there is a possibility of it going wrong in the future does not mean you sign it over to the machines that were killing you just minutes ago.

And anyway unlike the protheans in their cycle the new cycle is far more diverse, and from what I gather only inhabits a small portion of the relay network. 

[General TSAR]

Brainwashing of course.

[Guanxii]

You are forgetting that it is extremely likely that the metacon war like the geth invasion of Eden Prime and events of ME1 were caused by Sovereign or some other reaper preparing the galaxy for Reaper invasion. After all a weakened prothean empire is what they would want.
And without Reapers we can take our sweet time getting synthetics to be good. And anyway would you accept being imprisoned for the rest of your life on the grounds that it will be safer for you? Letting someone else take all the decisions because they "know best".
Just because there is a possibility of it going wrong in the future does not mean you sign it over to the machines that were killing you just minutes ago.
And anyway unlike the protheans in their cycle the new cycle is far more diverse, and from what I gather only inhabits a small portion of the relay network.

 

The friendly, peaceful races didn't have what it took to survive such a brutally unforgiving environment which the Protheans had shaped. Diversity was stamped out of the galaxy as only the strongest survived at that level of socio-technological advancement. In order to survive the synthetic onslaught even the Protheans resorted to alliances.

 

Knowing Javik I can't help but think that artificial intelligence takes on the personality of it's creator - Geth are Quarian in character - egalitarian, community orientated, diplomatic and democratic - perhaps even more extreme manifestations of these qualities. A Prothean AI would be f--king hostile to quote Pantera. I can't imagine the lengths of depravity it would be capable of reapers or no.

Prothean: machine do what I say...

Machine: go f yourself

Prothean: ?

 

I reckon our artificial intelligences would start out naive, hopeful and trusting as we are at the beginning and as the character of our civilization changes to mirror the changing geopolitical context of our environment our AI would become more and more 'prothean'.

[SwobyJ]

Prothean: machine do what I say...

Machine: go f yourself

Prothean: ?

 

Hahahahaha

[katamuro]

 

I reckon our artificial intelligences would start out naive, hopeful and trusting as we are at the beginning and as the character of our civilization changes to mirror the changing geopolitical context of our environment our AI would become more and more 'prothean'.

 

Well, humans already have an AI, she is called EDI. 

There is a difference between computer intelligence(that is based completely on 1 and 0, entirely mathematical) and artificial intelligence. EDI is an artificial intelligence, she has the ability to modify her own programming, she has the ability to "feel" for the lack of a better word. She is a personality and not just a computer who cares only about its own survival. 

And that is something that more people need to understand. Skynet is not an AI, skynet is a computer intelligence, a computer intelligence is not a personality, its a set of programming that is capable of actions that were not defined at the start, gaining more complexity as times goes on. It is incapable of understanding humans, incapable of feelings or any of the things that make us truly intelligent. An AI however is just like a child, an inhumanly fast and smart one but it has a personality and personality is formed through experiences. 

So just like humans, AI would not necessarily turn into a killer. After all if that was the case, if it was natural for intelligence to become cold blooded survival machines murder would not be a crime, it would be commonplace. Something that is natural to a society of survivors. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Well except for EDI and the Geth.

 

They lived in my ending.

 

!

[Guanxii]

Well, humans already have an AI, she is called EDI. 

There is a difference between computer intelligence(that is based completely on 1 and 0, entirely mathematical) and artificial intelligence. EDI is an artificial intelligence, she has the ability to modify her own programming, she has the ability to "feel" for the lack of a better word. She is a personality and not just a computer who cares only about its own survival. 

And that is something that more people need to understand. Skynet is not an AI, skynet is a computer intelligence, a computer intelligence is not a personality, its a set of programming that is capable of actions that were not defined at the start, gaining more complexity as times goes on. It is incapable of understanding humans, incapable of feelings or any of the things that make us truly intelligent. An AI however is just like a child, an inhumanly fast and smart one but it has a personality and personality is formed through experiences. 

So just like humans, AI would not necessarily turn into a killer. After all if that was the case, if it was natural for intelligence to become cold blooded survival machines murder would not be a crime, it would be commonplace. Something that is natural to a society of survivors. 

 

Without synthesis EDI is merely simulating emotion - she it cannot feel; it is merely an illusion.

 

A first attempt at an artificial intelligence like EDI and the Geth are exactly what I'm talking about. Their thought processes reflected in aural communication superficially resemble our own. As they start modify themselves those vaguely human characteristics might fade over time until we can no longer comprehend them at all.

 

Should we continue building AI if we'd been through what the protheans had hope and optimism give way to pessimism and moral relativism and before you know it your AI has it's own agenda and it doesn't give a f--k about you either - not that it ever did in the first place.

[RoboticWater]

Without synthesis EDI is merely simulating emotion - she it cannot feel; it is merely an illusion.

Aren't we all just simulating emotion? Sacks of chemicals and a series of electrical impulses all conveniently wrapped in a skull.

[Guanxii]

Aren't we all just simulating emotion? Sacks of chemicals and a series of electrical impulses all conveniently wrapped in a skull.

Well you can artificially induce organic emotional states but those are still real impulses. A psychopath lacking capability for empathy cannot feel empathy. They can only fake it like a machine could. Without synthesis EDI is not a real person only a damn near perfect impression of one - it's what it was designed to do.

[RoboticWater]

Well you can artificially induce organic emotional states but those are still real impulses. A psychopath lacking capability for empathy cannot feel empathy. They can only fake it like a machine.

What exactly are emotions, and why can't machines have them? As far was we know, the brain is just a hyper-complex computer taking in data, processing it, and returning it in a specific fashion, what makes emotions so special?

 

Is EDI a psychopath if she genuinely wants the happiness and kindness she is simulating? What is the broken part of psychopaths that makes them "machines," and why do all AI inherently have that flaw?

 

I can't exactly answer any of these questions, but my point is: why should I believe that EDI and the geth are inherently flawed when I've only ever seen evidence to the contrary?

[katamuro]

What exactly are emotions, and why can't machines have them? As far was we know, the brain is just a hyper-complex computer taking in data, processing it, and returning it in a specific fashion, what makes emotions so special?

 

Is EDI a psychopath if she genuinely wants the happiness and kindness she is simulating?What is the broken part of psychopaths that makes them "machines," and why do all AI inherently have that flaw?

 

I can't exactly answer any of these questions, but my point is: why should I believe that EDI and the geth are inherently flawed when I've only ever seen evidence to the contrary?

 

Yeah we are more or less just chemical computers with complicated energy conversion systems. All our thoughts are just electrical impulses and our morality and all that stuff is basically social programming from our environment, books and the like. Just because an AI can be programmed in a fraction of the time it takes humans it doesnt mean the AI is any less genuine.

[Guanxii]

What exactly are emotions, and why can't machines have them? As far was we know, the brain is just a hyper-complex computer taking in data, processing it, and returning it in a specific fashion, what makes emotions so special?

 

Is EDI a psychopath if she genuinely wants the happiness and kindness she is simulating? What is the broken part of psychopaths that makes them "machines," and why do all AI inherently have that flaw?

 

I can't exactly answer any of these questions, but my point is: why should I believe that EDI and the geth are inherently flawed when I've only ever seen evidence to the contrary?

 

These's no way to discern whether a computer simulated emotion can be considered 'real' when neuroscience cannot yet provide a definitive answer about the thing it's attempting to simulate. Who knows, not me. Maybe Bowie?

[themikefest]

They lived in my ending.

 

!

The geth and edi got destroyed in my ending