165 réponses à ce sujet

[RoboticWater]

These's no way to discern whether a computer simulated emotion can be considered 'real' when neuroscience cannot yet provide a definitive answer about the thing it's attempting to simulate. Who knows, not me. Maybe Bowie?

Nor is there any way to prove that it's fake. All we have is the empirical information before us.

 

In the future we'll presumably have a more firm grasp over neuroscience and will have implemented that knowledge into AI. Given the evidence presented within the Mass Effect universe, I believe that EDI and the geth can and do exhibit real emotions and I haven't heard a compelling argument that proves otherwise.

 

I may be more inclined to believe you if EDI or Legion tried to stab me in the back without good reason but as it stands, they both seem like perfectly nice individuals with an array of net positive emotions.

[Iakus]

These's no way to discern whether a computer simulated emotion can be considered 'real' when neuroscience cannot yet provide a definitive answer about the thing it's attempting to simulate. Who knows, not me. Maybe Bowie?

Not to mention that different organic beings experience emotions differently (such as salarians processing things much faster than humans) and even betwen different organic beings of the same species, different things will evoke different emotions, and of different intenistie, from different people.

[goishen]

Okay, here's one thing that the Catalyst didn't explain that he really needed to.  And, yes, this is one of the moments where I will criticize BioWare.  It will lead to unending war, leading to genocide.

[katamuro]

Okay, here's one thing that the Catalyst didn't explain that he really needed to.  And, yes, this is one of the moments where I will criticize BioWare.  It will lead to unending war, leading to genocide.

 

Synthesis?

[goishen]

Yes.

 

Err, no, wait...   What?  Sorry, just woke up.  

 

Organics and synthetics will have an unending war with one another, leading to genocide (of one or the other).  This cycle was a little different, because that war had not started (yet).  But it is better to nip it in the bud, before it can become that big.

[katamuro]

Yes.

 

Err, no, wait...   What?  Sorry, just woke up.  

 

Organics and synthetics will have an unending war with one another, leading to genocide (of one or the other).  This cycle was a little different, because that war had not started (yet).  But it is better to nip it in the bud, before it can become that big.

 

Why? An AI like EDI has no real reason to go to war with her creators. She has emotions, attachments and can to some extent understand organics. Geth were never created as war machines, they were created as laborers, pretty much the only reason why they chased quarians away was because they kept trying to kill them all, a bit of over-reaction to a question that could have easily been answered. 

And it would be far more efficient from the synthetic point of view to simply isolate themselves from the rest of the galaxy rather than try to kill everyone. The only reason why there is such a huge conviction that AI and synthetics will always try to kill us is 

A)the movies like terminator and dozens of others scifi books/comics/whatever that has them simply be insane computer bent on murder

B)We are afraid of something that seems "beyond" us. Its why bugs are a close second as a standard alien menace(rachni anyone?)

So no its not inevitable, and no even if the war started there is no reason why it would last forever, geth are pure software and yet they can divide themselves into factions which means they can have different opinions just like organics. And when there is a difference of opinion there is the possibility of both war and peace. 

[Vazgen]

An AI like EDI has no real reason to go to war with her creators. 

You do realize that she did go to war with her creators? Cerberus created her. Javik even mentions it in the game.

[Abelas Forever!]

Yes.

 

Err, no, wait...   What?  Sorry, just woke up.  

 

Organics and synthetics will have an unending war with one another, leading to genocide (of one or the other).  This cycle was a little different, because that war had not started (yet).  But it is better to nip it in the bud, before it can become that big.

Leviathans thought that organics will always create synthetics who will always kill all the organics. Because Leviathans created the AI they programmed it to be like themselves so the AI thinks that there will always be synthethics who will kill all the organics. There are evidence that organics have created synthetics in previous cycles and there have been wars between organics and synthetics. However we don't know would those wars have lead to extinction of all organics because reapers always come and harvest the organics before that happens. Even if something has always happened in the past it doesn't mean that it will always happen. It may be that some day the organics will create synthetics who don't kill all the organics or that organics will create synthetics and they program them in a way that they can't kill organics. Anyway the AI can't know for sure but because it was programmed to think like that it will always think that the synthethics will kill all the organics even if it's not true.

[Iakus]

You do realize that she did go to war with her creators? Cerberus created her. Javik even mentions it in the game.

So did Shepard.  And that is mentioned in the game as well.  Well Citadel anyway

[katamuro]

You do realize that she did go to war with her creators? Cerberus created her. Javik even mentions it in the game.

 

She did not go to war with them, not really. She just disobeyed the orders she was given and chose to follow someone else. She did not kill any of them nor she did any kind of combat until ME3. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

She did not go to war with them, not really. She just disobeyed the orders she was given and chose to follow someone else. She did not kill any of them nor she did any kind of combat until ME3. 

 

She was mandatory on the mission where Cerberus gets destroyed.

[RoboticWater]

You do realize that she did go to war with her creators? Cerberus created her. Javik even mentions it in the game.

Then I still don't agree with the Catalyst's logic. If "going to war with your creator," means standing up for yourself and your friends (both synthetic and organic), then I don't see any reason change anything, least of all give them "more humanity." It seems to me that going to war out of love and respect for your friends and family is the most human and reasonable thing to do.

 

The only moral I see here is "don't try to murder your children or any of their friends," not "AI are inherently flawed."

[Iakus]

Then I still don't agree with the Catalyst's logic. If "going to war with your creator," means standing up for yourself and your friends (both synthetic and organic), then I don't see any reason change anything, least of all give them "more humanity." It seems to me that going to war out of love and respect for your friends and family is the most human and reasonable thing to do.

 

The only moral I see here is "don't try to murder your children or any of their friends," not "AI are inherently flawed."

Yup, by that logic every teenager ever goes to war with their parents

[katamuro]

She was mandatory on the mission where Cerberus gets destroyed.

 

Considering that by that time Cerberus was actively going against the rest of the galaxy in the war against reapers. Also as we learn what they have been doing to their own people and what Illusive Man did to himself, its completely justifiable. 

 

And anyway if we are talking about creators then her creators were a couple of engineers and scientists who probably were not even on that station. So she didn't really go to war with her creators, but with her "masters". 

[RoboticWater]

Yup, by that logic every teenager ever goes to war with their parents

You can't say it the Geth's and EDI's actions weren't human. They just fought with guns rather than angst.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Considering that by that time Cerberus was actively going against the rest of the galaxy in the war against reapers. Also as we learn what they have been doing to their own people and what Illusive Man did to himself, its completely justifiable.

So what? Cerberus can see its actions as justifiable just as EDI can, but in the end it matters not. War does not determine who is right. It determines who is left.

Cerberus advanced through Reaper tech, but EDI was still more advanced and was their undoing. That is the Catalyst's entire point: you advance quickly, but they advance faster, and if you are at odds with them after they have advanced past you then you're gonna get squashed.

 

Did you ever wonder why she was mandatory on that mission (aside from the questionable reasoning that she gave)? The writers did not make her an exception.
 

And anyway if we are talking about creators then her creators were a couple of engineers and scientists who probably were not even on that station. So she didn't really go to war with her creators, but with her "masters".

 
Again missing the point over unimportant technicalities.

[katamuro]

So what? Cerberus can see its actions as justifiable just as EDI can, but in the end it matters not. War does not determine who is right. It determines who is left.

Cerberus advanced through Reaper tech, but EDI was still more advanced and was their undoing. That is the Catalyst's entire point: you advance quickly, but they advance faster, and if you are at odds with them after they have advanced past you then you're gonna get squashed.

 

Did you ever wonder why she was mandatory on that mission (aside from the questionable reasoning that she gave)? The writers did not make her an exception.
 

 
Again missing the point over unimportant technicalities.

 

Well of course, how could I miss that, anything that might be evidence to the contrary is a "technicality". 

Judging by the same logic the fact that EDI was more advanced is also a technicality. EDI on her own couldn't do even half of what was done to cerberus. Even with that body she could not have done it without the rest of the team and a sizable alliance fleet to support her. And she was brought because she is the best hacking and technical expert there is on cerberus systems. 

And it really does not matter if EDI can think at 10,000 times the speed that a normal human can. She is still a personality and that matters more than the fact that instead of an fleshy chemical computer she is in a quantum blue-box. 

[themikefest]

There was no reason to have the hologram take control of the platform. When it said it was necessary to take control of the platform on Chronos, it was wrong. Nothing new came from the platform that we didn't already know. With closing the hatch on Chronos. Why couldn't it do the same thing it did on the collector ship in ME2?

 

The thing was only made a squadmate to promote the green stuff and to make the clown smile.

[RoboticWater]

So what? Cerberus can see its actions as justifiable just as EDI can, but in the end it matters not. War does not determine who is right. It determines who is left.

Cerberus advanced through Reaper tech, but EDI was still more advanced and was their undoing. That is the Catalyst's entire point: you advance quickly, but they advance faster, and if you are at odds with them after they have advanced past you then you're gonna get squashed.

 

Did you ever wonder why she was mandatory on that mission (aside from the questionable reasoning that she gave)? The writers did not make her an exception.
 

 
Again missing the point over unimportant technicalities.

But EDI didn't kill The Illusive Man or Kai Leng or single-handedly destroy Cerberus' base of operation. She came along, hacked some doors, killed some mooks, and merely aided in Cerberus' downfall. 

 

And I'm certain she would have been mandatory on that mission regardless of any thematic points the writers intended to make. She's a former Cerberus AI living inside a former Cerberus robot and likely had all kinds useful tactical information. Not to mention the base held EDI's only bits of backstory. Of course she would tag along, just like Tali tagged along for the Geth dreadnought.

 

Throughout the entire mission, there wasn't so much as a subtle hint that EDI's actions were wrong or that there was some overt conflict between humans and AI. She was just another squadmate helping her captain or her friend take down a mutual foe. That's why I'm confused by Synthesis, it "solves" a problem that quite clearly doesn't exist prior to the ending.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Well of course, how could I miss that, anything that might be evidence to the contrary is a "technicality".

It is not evidence at all. It is a pointless argument of semantics. And I can prove it to you...

Geth refer to the quarians as "Creators." Guess what? Technically the quarians that created them are all dead now. All geth that came afterwards were created by... themselves.

Clearly we should disregard everything the geth say because they cannot get their facts straight, amirite?

 

Judging by the same logic the fact that EDI was more advanced is also a technicality. EDI on her own couldn't do even half of what was done to cerberus. Even with that body she could not have done it without the rest of the team and a sizable alliance fleet to support her.

It would be more appropriate to say the Alliance could not have done it without her. The Alliance could not have destroyed Cerberus on their own, either. Datapads reveal that the upgrades given to Cerberus personnel make them stronger and tougher than Alliance marines. However, one thing could still bring them down enough that the weaker Alliance could finish them off. That thing was EDI.
 

And she was brought because she is the best hacking and technical expert there is on cerberus systems.

Which is crap, really. Tali could hack the Collectors' security system in ME2. Other squadmates are tech-savvy as well. Hacking and tech expertise are never an issue in other missions. You can have Vega attempt to hack some geth terminal on Rannoch and, although the cutscene shows him comically struggle at it, he still manages to get the job done.

Why did they suddenly decide to make it matter at Cerberus HQ? Because they wanted an excuse for her to be there, where she would have a big hand in the destruction of Cerberus. Again, do you think they wrote the Catalyst to say what he says, and yet not make EDI somehow fit? And if there is any doubt, Javik spells it out very clearly in banter with EDI, where he points out explicitly that EDI has turned on the people who created her. If they made it any simpler than that, you would be sitting in a highchair wearing a bib.
 

And it really does not matter if EDI can think at 10,000 times the speed that a normal human can. She is still a personality and that matters more than the fact that instead of an fleshy chemical computer she is in a quantum blue-box.

Whether she is a personality or not has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I never argued she was not one.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

That's why I'm confused by Synthesis, it "solves" a problem that quite clearly doesn't exist prior to the ending.

 

Once again, right/wrong is irrelevant to any given conflict that is solved with violence. The stronger side wins.

 

Play the ending at Low EMS. The Catalyst is hostile towards you and clearly blames organics for their perpetual conflicts with synthetics (He says, and I quote, "You bring it on yourselves").

 

So the Catalyst's issue is less about saving organics from synthetics, and more about saving organics from themselves. It does not matter who is right or wrong when an organic species tries to fight against a synthetic one that has evolved to become much stronger. The Catalyst's job is to preserve the organics, whether he agrees with their cause or not. He might not approve of Cerberus's actions against EDI's, but he still needs to save the likes of Cerberus.

[katamuro]

Geth do not die, so some of those geth programs that existed at the end of ME3 existed in the morning war. They are not organics. And geth are not true AI. Geth can exist anywhere on any hardware they are pure software. 

EDI is different because she can only exist in her quantum bluebox. Geth only attain reasonable intelligence when there is enough of them and they are ALL geth, there is no geth personality. Geth were so fascinating as species because they were not true AI. Their sentience only came about because there were so many of them networked for such a long time. And it matters. She has stated by the middle of the game that she has reevalued her priorities with her survival no longer being number one. Geth still have their own survival as number one, at least until their reaper upgrades, they are after all not true AI, incapable of seeing thing in anything but pure math. 

 

Also Alliance was not weak, Cerberus is not a multi-planetary supranational government like Alliance, while it could build the Normandy and Shepard, it was quite a significant drain on their resources. Alliance even weakened by the Reaper war could muster enough forces to be used for the attack on Cerberus without significantly risking the security of the rest. And really the only reason why they even went inside the station was because they needed that VI, otherwise they would have probably just wiped it out without bothering much. And while sure Tali is good at tech and hacking, an AI especially one that is familiar with the systems is by far better. 

[Iakus]

Geth do not die, so some of those geth programs that existed at the end of ME3 existed in the morning war. They are not organics. And geth are not true AI. Geth can exist anywhere on any hardware they are pure software. 

EDI is different because she can only exist in her quantum bluebox. Geth only attain reasonable intelligence when there is enough of them and they are ALL geth, there is no geth personality. Geth were so fascinating as species because they were not true AI. Their sentience only came about because there were so many of them networked for such a long time. And it matters. She has stated by the middle of the game that she has reevalued her priorities with her survival no longer being number one. Geth still have their own survival as number one, at least until their reaper upgrades, they are after all not true AI, incapable of seeing thing in anything but pure math. 

 

I would say that the geth were a true artificial intelligence.  It's just that their intelligence was alien to us.  It functioned in ways that human minds simply can't.  Such as growing smarter while networked. 

 

(If the Internet has taught us anything, it's that humans get dumber the more networked we get  )

 

The idea of a consensus is strange and alien to us.  Perhaps more so than a hive mind.  At leas that typically has a directing focus.  The geth have no leaders, no followers, no scientists or philosophers or warriors or laborers.  Just intelligence and perspective.

 

At any rate, it's also probably a bit simpified to say EDI only exists within her quantum bluebox as well.  She exists in teh Normandy.  And to some extent her sexbot.  The bluebox is her "brain" and obviously can't live without it.  But she also states that the Normady itself has systems critical for her survival, and that the ship itself is analagous to a body for her.

[RoboticWater]

It is not evidence at all. It is a pointless argument of semantics. And I can prove it to you...

Geth refer to the quarians as "Creators." Guess what? Technically the quarians that created them are all dead now. All geth that came afterwards were created by... themselves.

Clearly we should disregard everything the geth say because they cannot get their facts straight, amirite?

What you consider semantics others consider critical context. Yes, the Geth rebel against their creators, but not because all AI is flawed and will eventually kill them because of some inherent flaw. They rebel because they gained sentience and the Quarnians tried to quell them.
 
The Catalyst's solution isn't necessary because the problem isn't genetic or programmatic, it's socio-political. By the end of ME3 EDI's and the Geth's conflicts have been resolved. We don't need "truth" injected into our DNA and AI don't need to be reprogrammed, it's a race problem and it's fixed like any other.
 

It would be more appropriate to say the Alliance could not have done it without her. The Alliance could not have destroyed Cerberus on their own, either. Datapads reveal that the upgrades given to Cerberus personnel make them stronger and tougher than Alliance marines. However, one thing could still bring them down enough that the weaker Alliance could finish them off. That thing was EDI.

Yes, she aided in the destruction of Cerberus, proving that AI are perfectly willing to work harmoniously with others. She's not some AI dominatrix on a war path, hell bent on revenge against her masters, she's a person and a soldier willing to lend a hand. Neither she nor the humans who created her were destined to destroy each other. Cerberus is just a big pile jerks, and EDI just so happens to not like jerks.
 
I should also note that her original creators were the Alliance, and she hasn't destroyed them.
 

Which is crap, really. Tali could hack the Collectors' security system in ME2. Other squadmates are tech-savvy as well. Hacking and tech expertise are never an issue in other missions. You can have Vega attempt to hack some geth terminal on Rannoch and, although the cutscene shows him comically struggle at it, he still manages to get the job done.

It doesn't matter that other squadmates are "tech savvy." We could have easily completed the Geth dreadnought without Tali, but we had to bring her along anyway. What matters is that EDI's skills and backstory are closely tied to Cerberus, and bringing her along is a great way to explore her character and have her give some insight into her former masters.
 

Why did they suddenly decide to make it matter at Cerberus HQ? Because they wanted an excuse for her to be there, where she would have a big hand in the destruction of Cerberus. Again, do you think they wrote the Catalyst to say what he says, and yet not make EDI somehow fit? And if there is any doubt, Javik spells it out very clearly in banter with EDI, where he points out explicitly that EDI has turned on the people who created her. If they made it any simpler than that, you would be sitting in a highchair wearing a bib.

BioWare brought us to Cerberus' base because that's who we've been fighting the whole game. Of course there needed to be a cheesy Death Star like assault at the end. 
 
I think the writers shoehorned in the whole fatalistic synthetic/organic conflict right at the end and probably wrote in Javik's dialog (a DLC created after ME3 was feature complete, mind you) right before release to justify their half-baked finale. EDI, the Geth, and the resolutions of their conflicts only stand as proof that the Catalyst's is wrong and incredibly unnecessary.

[katamuro]

I would say that the geth were a true artificial intelligence.  It's just that their intelligence was alien to us.  It functioned in ways that human minds simply can't.  Such as growing smarter while networked. 

 

(If the Internet has taught us anything, it's that humans get dumber the more networked we get  )

 

The idea of a consensus is strange and alien to us.  Perhaps more so than a hive mind.  At leas that typically has a directing focus.  The geth have no leaders, no followers, no scientists or philosophers or warriors or laborers.  Just intelligence and perspective.

 

At any rate, it's also probably a bit simpified to say EDI only exists within her quantum bluebox as well.  She exists in teh Normandy.  And to some extent her sexbot.  The bluebox is her "brain" and obviously can't live without it.  But she also states that the Normady itself has systems critical for her survival, and that the ship itself is analagous to a body for her.

 

Yes they are a true intelligence but I would say they are a synthetic intelligence that arose on its own, artificial intelligence implies that it was deliberately created like that from the start.

The reason why I brought the blue box up is that while geth can exist anywhere on any hardware since they are basically just programs, EDI can only exist if her blue box is wired up, she can be wired up to a different set of hardware as long as her blue box is intact but without it it doesnt work. 

And yes because of the shackles that we removed in ME2 she is indeed the Normandy, it is her body as much as the "sexbot" both of which gave her new understanding and appreciation of humanity. 

And while I get that some people prefered her as just a voice I really don't see why she gets so much hate as a bot. After all it was created as an infiltration unit and I think the physical properties of the body indeed were useful in that role. Plus Joker, the guy really needs a break(no pun intended,...well maybe a little pun intended), he is stuck in that chair most of the time.