165 réponses à ce sujet

[goishen]

Look, EDI even states in ME3 about the time that she will become nonfunctional.  Meaning that she die.  Therefore, all AI's will die.  Plus, Leviathan likes organic races to be in their thrall.  While Sovereign and the reapers took control of the geth heretics, it was a temporary alliance. 

 

So, that must mean that one way or the other, either synthetics or organics would be wiped out.  Leviathan would be displeased if organics were to be wiped out.  The Citadel would be displeased if AI's were to be wiped out.

 

So, it therefore came to a conclusion to wipe both of them out before that could happen.

 

Make sense?

[Abelas Forever!]

Catalyst was created to preserve organics at all cost and It came up with a solution where it preserve organics as reapers. However it hasn't been able to create a reaper with a mind of that species since Leviathans. Catalyst has sped up its process of creating reapers by letting behind advanced technology such as mass relays so that it could harvest the organics faster and that way it has the possibility to finally create the ideal reaper with a mind of that species. Catalyst isn't using its combuting ability to calculate whether organics and synthetics will be at war or is it possible to find peace between them. It's only purpose is to preserve organics. It doesn't care about anything else.

 

I have a really hard time accepting the endings as I see them because why would Catalyst let you there if it's controlling the whole Citadel unless it wants you there? Why does it give you an option to destroy reapers? All I can think is that the reason Catalyst wants Shepard there is that it wants to try whether Shepard can be that mind of a reaper. So the options which it gives you are ways to integrate with that human reaper which the reapers are creating. So choosing destroy leads to failing in that integration and synthesis leads to succesful integration. Maybe control is also succesful integration but somehow different than synthesis because Catalyst prefers synthesis.

[Pasquale1234]

There will always be conflict.
Organics will always improve themselves with technology.
Synthetics will always aim for greater understanding.
 
Picking Synthesis is doing a specific form of what is inevitable. You don't have to pick it in ME3. But otherwise, there will always be conflict, organics will always improve themselves with technology, and synthetics will always aim for greater understanding (including of organics).

The story does try to set up that premise, but I think it's an artificial dichotomy - because it is equally valid to say that:

Synthetics will always improve themselves with technology.
Organics will always aim for greater understanding.

A faulty base premise does not lead to correct results.

We saw what technology did for the Krogan when they brought nuclear winter to their home planet. We also see them returning to the Kakliosaur for battle mounts, rather than using machines. The points here are that technology does not always make things better, and that sometimes organic solutions are preferable.

It does seem that the writers were trying to sell synthesis as the optimal solution, but they certainly didn't do a very good job of it.

[Iakus]

The story does try to set up that premise, but I think it's an artificial dichotomy - because it is equally valid to say that:

Synthetics will always improve themselves with technology.
Organics will always aim for greater understanding.

A faulty base premise does not lead to correct results.

We saw what technology did for the Krogan when they brought nuclear winter to their home planet. We also see them returning to the Kakliosaur for battle mounts, rather than using machines. The points here are that technology does not always make things better, and that sometimes organic solutions are preferable.

It does seem that the writers were trying to sell synthesis as the optimal solution, but they certainly didn't do a very good job of it.

 

Technology is not a straight line.  There are many paths to the same end.  Accepting another's path blinds you to alternatives. Nazara...Sovereign... said this itself.  "Your civilization is based upon the technology of the mass relays.  Our technology.  By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire."

 

Legion

[SwobyJ]

Synthesis is an ideal choice from the Reaper POV and it seemingly highly benefits organics if we try to adopt a Reaper POV about it to an extent.

 

So there's that.

 

You don't have to pick it. You don't have to involve the Crucible at all in a future synthesis. You don't have to involve the Reapers in a future synthesis. You can insist on there never being a synthesis. Whatever. You can include the Catalyst in your final decision making, or you can shake him off and look straight at that explosive tube like a maniac.

 

I'm cool with being more of a betrayer for the sake of a greater perceived good.

Spoiler

(*whistles while looking around my display pic)

I just don't want Shepard to be one, so I went Destroy.

[Lars10178]

The game's own lore refutes the "logic" of the synthesis ending.

 

In ME2, the geth and the geth heretics split over a "rounding error" that causes a separation of judgment with how to deal with the reaper threat.  If the geth, who operate by consensus, can be split, then there's no proof whatsoever that the act of synthesizing organic and synthetic life will actually lead towards peace.

The two geth groups were allowed to separate peacefully and coexist in piece until the reapers infected the systems. You can disagree about topics and still find common ground. 

[Lars10178]

Look, EDI even states in ME3 about the time that she will become nonfunctional.  Meaning that she die.  Therefore, all AI's will die.  Plus, Leviathan likes organic races to be in their thrall.  While Sovereign and the reapers took control of the geth heretics, it was a temporary alliance. 

 

So, that must mean that one way or the other, either synthetics or organics would be wiped out.  Leviathan would be displeased if organics were to be wiped out.  The Citadel would be displeased if AI's were to be wiped out.

 

So, it therefore came to a conclusion to wipe both of them out before that could happen.

 

Make sense?

If the AIs are the same in ME as in Halo, they will outthink themselves and overload their hardware and software. 

[SwobyJ]

The two geth groups were allowed to separate peacefully and coexist in piece until the reapers infected the systems. You can disagree about topics and still find common ground. 

 

If you call Reaper code communication as infection, okay.

[Pasquale1234]

I can understand and respect why others feel differently than I do. That's just the way I see it, and a year of reading debates on the BSN hasn't changed that stance any. I find the conversations about whether or not the geth were alive; or moral in their stances; or if the quarian/geth war lends merit to the notion that synthetics and organics will always go to war; to have a lot more nuisances to it. I find most of the debate interesting, but I will never find EDI a compelling reason to prove that the Cycle is correct.

Best typo ever. 

[Grieving Natashina]

Best typo ever. 

Oh geez, I didn't even catch that.  Well, the typo still stands!

[The Arbiter]

If the AIs are the same in ME as in Halo, they will outthink themselves and overload their hardware and software. 

:c   ;(

 

[theflyingzamboni]

Not sure if anyone has said this yet, but I don't think synthesis is supposed to mean that there will never be wars. That would be ridiculous. I think the Catalyst is speaking of it as 'ideal' in terms of its objectives. It's only objective is to ensure that organic life is preserved. Synthesis is ideal because it evens the playing field. It's not that there will not be any more wars, just not of the kind that will result in all organic life being annihilated. The increase in understanding reduces the chances of a genocidal war occurring, and the technological integration would help ensure that there was parity in capability, so that synthetics wouldn't have the advantage necessary to exterminate all life. That's my take on it, anyway.

[The Arbiter]

Not sure if anyone has said this yet, but I don't think synthesis is supposed to mean that there will never be wars. That would be ridiculous. I think the Catalyst is speaking of it as 'ideal' in terms of its objectives. It's only objective is to ensure that organic life is preserved. Synthesis is ideal because it evens the playing field. It's not that there will not be any more wars, just not of the kind that will result in all organic life being annihilated. The increase in understanding reduces the chances of a genocidal war occurring, and the technological integration would help ensure that there was parity in capability, so that synthetics wouldn't have the advantage necessary to exterminate all life. That's my take on it, anyway.

Correct me if I am wrong but I think the only reason why past organic civilizations where annihilated was because of the catalyst not synthetics that the organics themselves created except the leviathans. Even the Geth where peaceful but the warmonger Quarian admirals kept on bombarding them

[Mcfly616]

Correct me if I am wrong but I think the only reason why past organic civilizations where annihilated was because of the catalyst not synthetics that the organics themselves created except the leviathans. Even the Geth where peaceful but the warmonger Quarian admirals kept on bombarding them

 organic civilizations were being annihilated by their synthetic creations long before the Catalyst/Reapers. So no, it's not the "only reason past organic civs were annihilated".

[theflyingzamboni]

Correct me if I am wrong but I think the only reason why past organic civilizations where annihilated was because of the catalyst not synthetics that the organics themselves created except the leviathans. Even the Geth where peaceful but the warmonger Quarian admirals kept on bombarding them

In the Leviathan DLC, the Leviathan says they created the Catalyst because they observed that their thrall species would create synthetics that would eventually wipe them out.

[The Arbiter]

In the Leviathan DLC, the Leviathan says they created the Catalyst because they observed that their thrall species would create synthetics that would eventually wipe them out.

like????? never heard of them. So those synthetics where more hostile than the Geth and can not be reasoned with? or did the Leviathens acted irrational?

[Mcfly616]

like????? never heard of them. So those synthetics where more hostile than the Geth and can not be reasoned with? or did the Leviathens acted irrational?

You assume that all previous synthetics were exactly like the Geth or that every previous organic/synthetic conflict came about in the same exact way. 

[katamuro]

You assume that all previous synthetics were exactly like the Geth or that every previous organic/synthetic conflict came about in the same exact way. 

 

the war with Zhatil in the prothean cycle was directly caused by Reapers trying to create chaos before they invaded. Same as geth. I would think that kinda proves that Reapers were causing the synthetics to war on organics for their own purposes. Also it could be talking about itself, after all the AI/VI/whatever it really is is actually not a techno-organic construct like the reapers, its purely synthetic. 

[Mcfly616]

the war with Zhatil in the prothean cycle was directly caused by Reapers trying to create chaos before they invaded. Same as geth. I would think that kinda proves that Reapers were causing the synthetics to war on organics for their own purposes. 

as I said, synthetics already warred with organics before the Catalysts existence. Regarding the Zhatil, all we have is Javiks perspective and the fact that the Reapers took control of them to use as their tools to carry out that cycle. Much like they intended to do with the Geth during our cycle. 

[Han Shot First]

The issue is that there is no reason to see synthetics as inherently more dangerous than organic factions. The Catalyst is trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Or perhaps it is more accurate to say that it is seeing a problem that also exists between organic factions, as being one that is exclusive to contact between organic and synthetic factions.

[The Arbiter]

You assume that all previous synthetics were exactly like the Geth or that every previous organic/synthetic conflict came about in the same exact way. 

Read my post again. If there is someone on this thread jumping into conclusions it's you.

All we have are vague information that the "Leviathens" attempted to end Organic and Synthetic wars by what creating another synthetic? what the hell?

Did the Leviathens attempted to intervene? did the Leviathens attempted to reason with the Synthetics? did the Leviathens attempted to aid the organics in-terms of diplomacy and military power? No? so what did they do? they just sat there in space and observe Organics being wiped out by rogue AI'S or because there was misunderstandings?

 

throughout the trilogy there are alot and I mean alot of evidences of past Organics being wiped out by the Reapers. We don't know if those Organics in their respective cycles had synthetics with them... what we do know is that the Reapers enjoys the genocide of the organics or anything which are allied with the Organics including synthetics. We have that planet with a "great rift" it could have come from a Synthetic rail gun who are allied with the Organics themselves or it could have come from the Organics themselves it is vague.

 

The prothean cycle did not mention any synthetics being created in that cycle so the Reapers thought "yoh these cycle is reaching it's peak time to destroy them."

 

The last known Organic - Synthetic war was from the cycle of the Leviathens themselves. The recent Organic - Synthetic war is the MORNING WAR this war is the key in invalidating all claims of your precious Casper.  The Geth is proof that PEACE can be achieve through diplomacy not irrational actions, However the Quarians acted in haste which prompted them [Geth] to allie with the other Synthetics... the REAPERS! and what's disturbing is; instead of classifying the Geth as also a "part of the organic - synthetic war problem" it didn't... it helped them even contacted them and told them that the Reapers can provide aid while an Organic race which attempted to make peace with the Reapers got totally wiped out in a heartbeat according to Javik. Why is that so? are the Reapers biased? what is their true motive? to end all wars? or to maintain hegemony and be worshiped as gods? LEGION AND HIS PEOPLE REJECTS THAT IDEOLOGY they are willing to help all Organics to defeat the reapers this then invalidates all reasons of Casper that "the created will always rebel against the creator" no... the real reason for organic and synthetic war is "the created has malfunctioned or does not understand its true purpose"  that purpose can mean anything. The Geth's purpose was existence not through the use of force. If the Leviathen are so wise they should have thought about this during the past cycles, if the Synthetics in that cycle can not be reasoned with then they should have aided the Organics but instead they created a Synthetic which obviously sided with the synthetic race to defeat the organics themselves and that is the true purpose of the catalyst but it has re-named it as "preemptive war to prevent organic synthetic war" the catalyst only harvested organics nothing more... where are the other synthetics that rebeled against their creators during the cycle of the leviathens? what happened to them? if they hated the organics so much , their masters... we should have encountered them as allies of the reapers in ME1, ME2, AND ME3, but there was none. NONE... which leads me to suspect that those synthetics realized that the Reapers is a bigger threat and allied with their creators in the last moments of the war but was too little too late.

 

Now here's another question about the motive of the catalyst, what if the Quarians accepted defeat from the Geth and choose not to re-take rannoch but re-locate to another system? so there is already peace... then the Reapers attacked... do you think the Catalyst will also attack the Neutral Geths? I don't think so.

[Mcfly616]

Snip

 I'm the one jumping to conclusions?    you just typed an essay full of them. All I did was point out a clear observation that you are speculating and making assumptions about past cycles synthetics based on Geth behavior and events from our current cycle.

 

 

Yes, we actually do know that organics whom were harvested in previous cycles did indeed have other synthetics around at the time. And yes , there were synthetics during the Prothean cycle. Says Javik. He would know. He was there.

 

No, the Morning War in no way invalidates any of the Catalysts claims. No, the last organic/synthetic conflict was not from the Leviathan cycle. It was from last cycle. Then most recently in our cycle. If your point is that no organic civilizations have been wiped out by their synthetic creations since the beginning of the cycles, you should also realize that its because the Reapers arrive before it's even a possibility. Which is their purpose.

 

Where are the other synthetics from past cycles? Guess you missed that Catalyst conversation where it clearly states it harvests all advanced civilizations. Organic and synthetic.

 

You're right about one thing though. Leviathan did observe organic civilizations being wiped out by rogue AIs before the cycles.

[Mcfly616]

The issue is that there is no reason to see synthetics as inherently more dangerous than organic factions. The Catalyst is trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Or perhaps it is more accurate to say that it is seeing a problem that also exists between organic factions, as being one that is exclusive to contact between organic and synthetic factions.

Plenty of reason, considering advanced (organic) civilizations were observed being completely wiped out one after the other by their synthetic creations. There has been no observation of another organic civ wiping out other organic civs, one after the other. While organic factions may war with one another, the outcome of such conflicts doesn't threaten the existence of all life.

[Han Shot First]

Plenty of reason, considering advanced (organic) civilizations were observed being completely wiped out one after the other by their synthetic creations. There has been no observation of another organic civ wiping out other organic civs, one after the other. While organic factions may war with one another, the outcome of such conflicts doesn't threaten the existence of all life.

 

The only synthetic that ever wiped out a civilization is the Catalyst, and he is a special case, in that he is basically the Mass Effect equivalent of Skynet. The Leviathan empire was brought down from within. 

 

The Leviathans defeated a synthetic rebellion prior to creating the Catalyst, and the Protheans defeated both the Metacons and the Zhatil before the Reapers took them down. The Geth were fairly peaceful, with the Quarians being entirely at fault for the Morning War.

[Mcfly616]

The only synthetic that ever wiped out a civilization is the Catalyst, and he is a special case, in that he is basically the Mass Effect equivalent of Skynet. The Leviathan empire was brought down from within. 

 

The Leviathans defeated a synthetic rebellion prior to creating the Catalyst, and the Protheans defeated both the Metacons and the Zhatil before the Reapers took them down. The Geth were fairly peaceful, with the Quarians being entirely at fault for the Morning War.

Not true at all. Leviathan even tells you that civilizations were falling to their creations left and right. Which is what inspired them to create the Catalyst in the first place.

 

 

The Geth being "fairly peaceful" is rather irrelevant. Nobody said that synthetics were always the instigators. Just that organics and synthetics cannot coexist. Similar to what the Catalyst suggested of Leviathan, organics fail to see that they are part of the problem.