25 réponses à ce sujet

[BlackSheepMafia]

Sorry in advance if this has already been discussed, I'm new to the forum.

This is also merely speculation on my part so take it all with a pinch of salt.

Right so as I was playing through one of my DA:I campaigns I had chased after Morrigan through her eluvian into the fade and when talking to Flemeth I noticed something she said which I previously overlooked.

She talks of Mythal's and her own revenge, she says something along the lines of "while the music continues alas we must dance." Could this be a reference to the song of the old Gods? Hence the reason behind her collecting their souls?

If you recall in DA:O during the fifth blight Flemeth's mind was all over the place and she couldn't concentrate, while in Inquisition she seemed quite stable in comparison? Perhaps the the old Gods song was messing with her head as it does with the Darkspawn?

There's also the grey wardens, Solas hates the grey wardens and was furious at them seeking to end all blights. Perhaps the Elven Gods have some connection to the darkspawn, after all we have seen how powerful ancient elven magic is (the breach.) Was the Golden City somewhat like the crossroads as Morrigan calls it? Not exactly in the fade but close enough, which is why it is the only constant place in the fade?

Has anyone else noticed these minor coincidences while playing? Again I apologise if this has already been discussed, also sorry for any spelling mistakes, I'm writing from my phone.

[Brockololly]

I'm pretty sure in Origins, a lot of Flemeth's dialogue references music/song and that sort of thing. I'm assuming there is some connection there since I think the Blight in Ferelden started in the Korcari Wilds. And yet Flemeth's hut was largely unaffected by it.

 

Seems like there is some sort of connection between Mythal and the other Elven Gods and the Old Gods and in turn the Blight/Darkspawn.

 

There was some theory I had read guessing that the Old God souls possibly act like keys to Eluvians that would unlock the trapped Elven Gods. So maybe the Old God souls of the archdemons are  like Corypheus' dragon- the ancient elven gods viewed the dragon as a form reserved for Divinity and they put part of their souls in high dragons who we know as the Old Gods that can become archdemons. So maybe Solas wants those preserved Old God souls to unlock whatever Eluvian some or all of the trapped Elven Gods are behind.

 

Or something like that...

[MarcoNeves]

I'll go further, and say that Flemeth probably STARTED ALL Blights, just so she could find Urthemiel (& the others), put him in Morrigan's child, and then claim his soul later on in Inquisition. Perhaps starting blights, and transferring the old gods souls from the dragons into people connected to the blight, is the only way to free the Old Gods... whom I suspect are actually the Elvhen "Gods".

I have a feeling, way back in the day, for some reason (they had been messing up big time) they ended up inside Dragons (becoming the Old Gods), then they were "jailed" by Fen'harel (Solas) somewhere in the Void (the Deeper reaches of the Fade, accessible only via foci and Eluvians). Then Solas went to sleep.

In the meantime, Mythal ended up inside Flemeth, who sneakily guided Corypheus and his magister friends to breach the Golden City and begin the Blights, in order to access the Old Gods/Elvhen God's souls and transfer them back to normal bodies. BUT she did not expect the creation of the Wardens and their Joining. Thus, they started killing the Archdemons, before Flemeth could figure out a safe way to transfer their tainted souls safely from Dragon to person and "un-taint" them. The first successful one was only in the fifth blight (Urthemiel).

Then Solas woke up thousands of years later, and realized his f***_up and saw how his People had been ravaged by time and other races, due to the lack of their Gods. But maybe it would have been worse if he hadn't done what he did. Who knows...

[cap and gown]

In the meantime, Mythal ended up inside Flemeth, who sneakily guided Corypheus and his magister friends to breach the Golden City and begin the Blights, in order to access the Old Gods/Elvhen God's souls and transfer them back to normal bodies. BUT she did not expect the creation of the Wardens and their Joining. Thus, they started killing the Archdemons, before Flemeth could figure out a safe way to transfer their tainted souls safely from Dragon to person and "un-taint" them. The first successful one was only in the fifth blight (Urthemiel).
 

 

Since this relies on letting Morrigan do her magic in DAO, this theory doesn't seem to work. My first warden refused to let Morrigan bed Alistair and sacrificed herself killing the archdemon so that Alistair could become king. Indeed, the default world state for DAI assumes that Morrigan never had an old-god baby.

[MarcoNeves]

I know, that's the problem. The story is contingent upon player choice, thus depending on certain variables. But even if Morrigan didn't have an old God baby, or even lived past the 5th blight, Flemeth's goals would remain fairly the same: to retrieve Urthemiel's soul... to do something with it. Free it? Protect it? Use it for power? Who knows. But, I'm sure the devs would find a way to explain how Flemeth retrieves the soul. After all, in the epilogue of DAI, right before Solas arrives, she is putting something in an Eluvian... possibly sealing it as well. I believe it's Urthemiel's essence.

[Akkos]

Why didn't Flemeth save/retrieve Dumat, Rakzakiel, Toth and the other one..... old god soul then,  If Mythal want them so badly...? 

 

It was Morrigan who wanted the old god soul not Flemeth.  All Flemeth did was take it away from Morrigan. Though Flemeth knew the only way to save your warden was to let Morrigan follow him.

[MarcoNeves]

Fair points, indeed.
I think Flemeth did want to retrieve the other old God souls, but the Grey Wardens got in the way. Urthemiel and the fifth Blight was the first time she actually succeeded.
As for Morrigan wanting the old God soul, I believe Flemeth manipulated her to get to be in that position. You know, Flemeth is all about "nudging History when necessary. Even if sometimes it requires a shove in the right direction". I'm paraphrasing here...

[Reznore57]

She knows some stuff about the Blight , that's for sure.

It seems Mythal saved Andruil from the Blight long ago , I doubt she wants it to spread .

She says she saved Urthemiel from the jaws of darkness , doesn't sound "mouhahahaha...".

Anyway I don't think she has a huge masterplan , she wanted the soul to get more powerful so she could get her reckoning against the "Very Heavens."She also says she was betrayed , like the world was betrayed.

The Blight surely fills the whole betrayal of the world , it corrupts the sky , the earth and turns people into ghouls .

 

Besides we still don't know who the hell was talking with the magisters and Tevinter.

I still have doubts it was the Old Gods.

Possible the elven gods fell for it too .

[MarcoNeves]

Oh, crap, youre

She knows some stuff about the Blight , that's for sure.
It seems Mythal saved Andruil from the Blight long ago , I doubt she wants it to spread .
She says she saved Urthemiel from the jaws of darkness , doesn't sound "mouhahahaha...".
Anyway I don't think she has a huge masterplan , she wanted the soul to get more powerful so she could get her reckoning against the "Very Heavens."She also says she was betrayed , like the world was betrayed.
The Blight surely fills the whole betrayal of the world , it corrupts the sky , the earth and turns people into ghouls .
 
Besides we still don't know who the hell was talking with the magisters and Tevinter.
I still have doubts it was the Old Gods.
Possible the elven gods fell for it too .

Oh, crap, Reznore57.... I forgot about Flemeth's need for "a reckoning". You're right. However, doesn't she kind of give up her reckoning, when Solas absorbs her power? It seems to me she voluntarily lets Solas take her essence, thus forfeiting her plans for vengeance. But you're right.... I forgot about that whole bit.... Hmmmm...... I have to think.....

[Koneko Koji]

Oh, crap, youre
Oh, crap, Reznore57.... I forgot about Flemeth's need for "a reckoning". You're right. However, doesn't she kind of give up her reckoning, when Solas absorbs her power? It seems to me she voluntarily lets Solas take her essence, thus forfeiting her plans for vengeance. But you're right.... I forgot about that whole bit.... Hmmmm...... I have to think.....

 

This is assuming that Flemeth doesn't have another contingency plan in place like she did with Morrigan and giving the shard of herself to Hawke.

I very much doubt we've seen the last of her, and by doing whatever he did to her, Solas has revealed his identity and how far he'll go for his aims - so if there are still other shards or the 'real' body of Flemeth still about, she's now gathered some important information on him.

[Kantr]

I'll go further, and say that Flemeth probably STARTED ALL Blights, just so she could find Urthemiel (& the others), put him in Morrigan's child, and then claim his soul later on in Inquisition. Perhaps starting blights, and transferring the old gods souls from the dragons into people connected to the blight, is the only way to free the Old Gods... whom I suspect are actually the Elvhen "Gods".

I have a feeling, way back in the day, for some reason (they had been messing up big time) they ended up inside Dragons (becoming the Old Gods), then they were "jailed" by Fen'harel (Solas) somewhere in the Void (the Deeper reaches of the Fade, accessible only via foci and Eluvians). Then Solas went to sleep.

In the meantime, Mythal ended up inside Flemeth, who sneakily guided Corypheus and his magister friends to breach the Golden City and begin the Blights, in order to access the Old Gods/Elvhen God's souls and transfer them back to normal bodies. BUT she did not expect the creation of the Wardens and their Joining. Thus, they started killing the Archdemons, before Flemeth could figure out a safe way to transfer their tainted souls safely from Dragon to person and "un-taint" them. The first successful one was only in the fifth blight (Urthemiel).

Then Solas woke up thousands of years later, and realized his f***_up and saw how his People had been ravaged by time and other races, due to the lack of their Gods. But maybe it would have been worse if he hadn't done what he did. Who knows...

Doesnt work. Flemeth was born long after the first blight.

I know, that's the problem. The story is contingent upon player choice, thus depending on certain variables. But even if Morrigan didn't have an old God baby, or even lived past the 5th blight, Flemeth's goals would remain fairly the same: to retrieve Urthemiel's soul... to do something with it. Free it? Protect it? Use it for power? Who knows. But, I'm sure the devs would find a way to explain how Flemeth retrieves the soul. After all, in the epilogue of DAI, right before Solas arrives, she is putting something in an Eluvian... possibly sealing it as well. I believe it's Urthemiel's essence.

Seeing as the scene plays with the OGB not existing. It's not Urthemiels soul that's she is sending into the Eluvian. It might be Mythal

[MarcoNeves]

Doesnt work. Flemeth was born long after the first blight.Seeing as the scene plays with the OGB not existing. It's not Urthemiels soul that's she is sending into the Eluvian. It might be Mythal

Of course, it works. Mythal has been around before the first blight. Mind you, when I talk about Flemeth, I'm really talking about Mythal. The host body is irrelevant. It's always been about Mythal and her agenda.

As for her sending Mythal's soul into the Eluvian during the epilogue.... You could be right about that, indeed.

[Kantr]

Of course, it works. Mythal has been around before the first blight. Mind you, when I talk about Flemeth, I'm really talking about Mythal. The host body is irrelevant. It's always been about Mythal and her agenda.

As for her sending Mythal's soul into the Eluvian during the epilogue.... You could be right about that, indeed.

Ah, well it could have been Mythal then. Although considering she thought the other one to stop them bringing the taint from the void.

 

One theory is that the old gods are the remnants of the souls.

 

It couldn't have been her (Flemeths soul) so it has to be Mythal unless there's another soul floating about

[MarcoNeves]

Ah, well it could have been Mythal then. Although considering she thought the other one to stop them bringing the taint from the void.
 
One theory is that the old gods are the remnants of the souls.
 
It couldn't have been her (Flemeths soul) so it has to be Mythal unless there's another soul floating about

YES! I always wondered about that! (The old gods being remnants/incomplete versions of the Elvhen Gods' souls). Is that what you meant? Either way, I like the way you think!

[Kantr]

YES! I always wondered about that! (The old gods being remnants/incomplete versions of the Elvhen Gods' souls). Is that what you meant? Either way, I like the way you think!

Yes. sorry.

[BlackSheepMafia]

Doesnt work. Flemeth was born long after the first blight.Seeing as the scene plays with the OGB not existing. It's not Urthemiels soul that's she is sending into the Eluvian. It might be Mythal

That could be another twist, the soul Solas absorbs could have been Urthemiels soul, freeing Mythal through the Eluvian to find Flemmeth? Something similar to the events of DA:O and DA2 using her contingency plan. Or Flemmeth could have sacraficed herself for Mythal to inhabit the body of the person who drank from the well maybe? They can't really refuse considering they are a servant of Mythal. Or and more plausible, I'm just talking out my arse haha.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Call of the Old Gods doesn't involve any dancing so I assume that's just Flemeth's whimsical way of speaking.

[andy6915]

Sorry in advance if this has already been discussed, I'm new to the forum.

This is also merely speculation on my part so take it all with a pinch of salt.

Right so as I was playing through one of my DA:I campaigns I had chased after Morrigan through her eluvian into the fade and when talking to Flemeth I noticed something she said which I previously overlooked.

She talks of Mythal's and her own revenge, she says something along the lines of "while the music continues alas we must dance." Could this be a reference to the song of the old Gods? Hence the reason behind her collecting their souls?

If you recall in DA:O during the fifth blight Flemeth's mind was all over the place and she couldn't concentrate, while in Inquisition she seemed quite stable in comparison? Perhaps the the old Gods song was messing with her head as it does with the Darkspawn?

There's also the grey wardens, Solas hates the grey wardens and was furious at them seeking to end all blights. Perhaps the Elven Gods have some connection to the darkspawn, after all we have seen how powerful ancient elven magic is (the breach.) Was the Golden City somewhat like the crossroads as Morrigan calls it? Not exactly in the fade but close enough, which is why it is the only constant place in the fade?

Has anyone else noticed these minor coincidences while playing? Again I apologise if this has already been discussed, also sorry for any spelling mistakes, I'm writing from my phone.

 

Flemeth being loopy in DAO was just her presenting herself the way she wanted to. She presents herself differently to different people. In DAO she wanted to not appear hostile or even remotely threatening, so she just acted like a batty old woman with the look of a normal human. In DA2 when she meets Hawke in the middle of the blight, she is acting as "stable" then as she does when the blight is over. There, with Hawke, she wasn't trying to pretend about what she was. With Hawke, she presented herself as she really looks and really talks and really thinks. And honestly, I think she was just trying to have a bit of fun by trolling her ass off throughout DAO out of sheer boredom.

 

Oh, and she is quite "stable" and serious in the scenes right after Ostagar. So she could act normal even in that game, if the situation calls for it.

[Caddius]

Flemeth does make a lot of references to Songs and dances.

Morrigan mentions that Flemeth's wards have been able to hold off the darkspawn and the Blight itself. Which was eyebrow raising at the time, but Flemeth being the host of Mythal explains the familiarity with the Blight (She did cure Andruil, after all.) and the power and skill necessary to pull that off. Nevertheless, one of the first times Morrigan seems taken aback is when Flemeth bluntly states that even she would be destroyed by the Blight if the Wardens didn't stop it. If Andruil could be corrupted, and I suspect the rest of the Pantheon, Mythal could fall as easily. So she sets the Wardens up to end the Blight, and Morrigan to have a shot at preserving an Old God soul. All of her actions in previous games become really tantalizing puzzle pieces after Inquisition's revelations.

My question is, who is this reckoning against, and how will it be so destructive as to 'shake the very heavens'? Is she after her murderers, who I'm guessing were either Neromenian/Tevinter Dreamers being guided by Falon'din/Dirthamen/Insert Creator here, or elves serving one of the gods? Is she after the Creators? Do the Executors across the sea in (apparently) Amaranth have anything to do with it?

Tl;dr: WEEKES! *shakes fist*

[Koneko Koji]

Do you think Mythal created the Grey Wardens to contain the Blight? Is this perhaps another reason why Solas hates them, because their existence gets in the way of his own (cryptic) plans.

If she did, it would be remarkably easy for her to place a shard of herself in a consenting Warden and retrieve the OG soul as the Warden destroys the Arch Demon.

[Kantr]

Do you think Mythal created the Grey Wardens to contain the Blight? Is this perhaps another reason why Solas hates them, because their existence gets in the way of his own (cryptic) plans.

If she did, it would be remarkably easy for her to place a shard of herself in a consenting Warden and retrieve the OG soul as the Warden destroys the Arch Demon.

To receieve the soul properly though you need an emptry vessel (like a foetus or darkspawn)

[Lethaya]

On the song - I seem to recall multiple references to a time "where everything sang the same," which I took to have been the time before the Veil or something along those lines. Maybe the song the darkspawn hear is just a corrupted or fragmented version of what came before? I don't think the song of the Old Gods is the only one, regardless, though. Lyrium sings, too, no?

 

I know, that's the problem. The story is contingent upon player choice, thus depending on certain variables. But even if Morrigan didn't have an old God baby, or even lived past the 5th blight, Flemeth's goals would remain fairly the same: to retrieve Urthemiel's soul... to do something with it. Free it? Protect it? Use it for power? Who knows. But, I'm sure the devs would find a way to explain how Flemeth retrieves the soul. After all, in the epilogue of DAI, right before Solas arrives, she is putting something in an Eluvian... possibly sealing it as well. I believe it's Urthemiel's essence.

 

I don't think Flemeth could have started the blights. They began before she was born - the First Blight occured around 800 TE. Flemeth's story originated during the Towers age, during which the Third Blight took place. Mythal would be another matter, though.

 

As for Urthemiel being what was sent through the mirror, I doubt it for one main reason: it is very possible that Urthemiel's soul was lost during the Fifth Blight depending on player decisions, and from what I've seen, a lack of the Ritual doesn't seem to effect that part of the cutscene. Whatever she sent through existed regardless of whether the Ritual was done or not.

 

I think there's probably an overarching connection, here, but I don't think Flemeth or Mythal orchestrated the blights. It could happen, of course, but I'd bet on this having to do more with the Old Gods themselves or the Forgotten Ones if I had to pick someone to blame.

[MACharlie1]

Do you think Mythal created the Grey Wardens to contain the Blight? Is this perhaps another reason why Solas hates them, because their existence gets in the way of his own (cryptic) plans.

If she did, it would be remarkably easy for her to place a shard of herself in a consenting Warden and retrieve the OG soul as the Warden destroys the Arch Demon.

Possibly...the Dark Ritual predates the Chantry and the only Blight that predates the Chantry is the First Blight. And Morrigan did get the Ritual from Flemeth. Soooo....

[myahele]

Thing is, Dwarves and Elves fought alongside each other in the past, probably pre-blight/ fall of Arlathan.

 

The thaig where Sandal was discovered had a mosaic with Dragons, Paragons, other warriors, Elves and strange creatures.

 

It may be possible that the joining ritual is just as old and rediscovered

[MACharlie1]

Thing is, Dwarves and Elves fought alongside each other in the past, probably pre-blight/ fall of Arlathan.

 

The thaig where Sandal was discovered had a mosaic with Dragons, Paragons, other warriors, Elves and strange creatures.

 

It may be possible that the joining ritual is just as old and rediscovered

But why would it even exist before the existence of Archdemons? Unless there was a connection to something else in DA lore...and Flemeth is an Elven Goddess. I'm thinking this establishes some sort of connection (contrary to Solas' nothing in history/lore pointing to a connection) between the Old Gods and the Elves.