74 réponses à ce sujet

[Heidirs]

I've been running this through my head:

 

We know that Mythal was murdered, though not by who.

 

Flemeth says that Mythal was betrayed as she was betrayed.

 

Flemeth was betrayed by her husband who killed her lover.

 

Mythal is called the All Mother while Elgar'nan is consider the All Father. In some mythologies, not all mother and father figures are husband and wife, but others of elven gods are said to be their children, so they might be.

 

When asked why she hasn't revealed herself, Flemeth says that she knows the hearts of men and that is why Mythal came to her.

 

I have to wonder if Flemeth an Mythal's stories are similar and that Elgar'nan is the one who murdered Mythal.... though I don't know about the jilted lover aspect. 

 

Thoughts?

[Apollexander]

Mythal was betrayed.

Andraste was betrayed by her husband.

Flemeth was betrayed by her hunsband.

Were they coincidence?

Well, at least we learn that do not betray your wife. If you do, terrible things will happen. 

[Heidirs]

Well, at least we learn that do not betray your wife. If you do, terrible things will happen. 

 

True enough. 

 

I have heard the Mythal is Andraste theory... personally, I feel it's connecting too many famous women together, but we shall see. 

[Medhia_Nox]

Scaea was betrayed by Luthias Dwarfson as well - when he was seduced by an Avvar chieftess named Morrighan'nan no less.

[Patient.Zero]

Thats a really interesting theory! After all hell hath no fury like a woman scorned   I wonder then, how exactly the "world was betrayed" and why that ties in with the Mythal. What "happened that was never meant to happen"? So many questions! 

[Swaggerjking]

I am confused what makes you think it elgar nan and also who hasn't revealed what yet are you talking about mythal still being alive
Also how do we know mythal was murder and betrayed she could of been the betrayer we know bioeare loves to build up people then murder their reputation

also I really hope we that they don't do all the gods might be other god or important figures the more separate god and figures the better

[Heidirs]

Thats a really interesting theory! After all hell hath no fury like a woman scorned   I wonder then, how exactly the "world was betrayed" and why that ties in with the Mythal. What "happened that was never meant to happen"? So many questions! 

 

Solas has a line when talking about one of the other gods who got out of line. My Inquisitor asked why that god was allowed to live. And Solas replies, "One does not simply kill a god, Inquisitor. Even in legend."

 

There was some other book series I was reading - don't remember what it was - but it explained that you can't just kill a god. Because a god has all this power and controls all these things. So say you kill the god that controls the sun. Well, what happens to the sun then? The whole world would end.

 

So I wonder if Mythal's fall from power somehow robed the world of something... just speculation of course.

 

 

I am confused what makes you think it elgar nan 

 

Flemeth was betrayed by her husband. She says that Mythal was betrayed as she was. Elgar'nan may have been Mythal's husband. If Flemeth is talking in a literal sense, saying that Mythal's husband betrayed her, then it may have been Elgar'nan.

 

 

Also how do we know mythal was murder and betrayed she could of been the betrayer we know bioeare loves to build up people then murder their reputation

 

Anything is possible

 

 

also I really hope we that they don't do all the gods might be other god or important figures the more separate god and figures the better

 

I agree. It makes everything all confused. Also, it makes for a bland story when all the characters we know are all the same person.

[Patient.Zero]

Solas has a line when talking about one of the other gods who got out of line. My Inquisitor asked why that god was allowed to live. And Solas replies, "One does not simply kill a god, Inquisitor. Even in legend."

 

There was some other book series I was reading - don't remember what it was - but it explained that you can't just kill a god. Because a god has all this power and controls all these things. So say you kill the god that controls the sun. Well, what happens to the sun then? The whole world would end.

 

So I wonder if Mythal's fall from power somehow robed the world of something... just speculation of course.

 

Mythal is known to the elves as the Great protecter, godedess of motherhood and justice. If it's true that by killing a deity you essentially remove what they represent from existence it would make sense that killing Mythal is considered a betrayal of the word. Living in a place without protection or justice does not sound like a good time.  Elgar'nan is the god of vengeance and was known to the elves as being a pretty hot headed fellow (throwing the sun out of the sky for example) If Flemeth is being literal about how she and Mythal were betrayed in the same way maybe Elgar'nan killed his wife out of the belief that she was in love with someone else. Like perhaps a really good friend who she would let absorb her powers *cough* Solas *cough* 

 

It's a bit of a stretch but maybe.

[Swaggerjking]

Flemeth was betrayed by her husband. She says that Mythal was betrayed as she was. Elgar'nan may have been Mythal's husband. If Flemeth is talking in a literal sense, saying that Mythal's husband betrayed her, then it may have been Elgar'nan.

Ok my bad i derped it just wasn't computing but yeah i could say that a fair assumption to make

[Bayonet Hipshot]

The theme of the wife cheating on the husband, resulting in the husband going on a vengeful strike and killing the wife is evidently common in Thedas.

 

In actuality, both betrayed each other. The wife took a lover, which is a betrayal if you are in a monogamous relationship. The husband decided to kill the wife or imprison which is outright murder or restriction of freedom. 

 

The husband should have just requested a divorce with a commensurate compensation for the adultery. The wife should have made it clear she wanted it to end instead of illicitly taking lovers. Just like how rational people do it in the real world. 

 

So I doubt Mythal was a figure of perfection. She probably had a lover, perhaps a young Fen'Harel maybe ? Or perhaps even with one of the Forgotten Ones ? Elgar'nan probably heard about it, got angry, got jealous and killed her.

 

Just like how Flemeth was imprisoned and would have most certainly died. 

 

Just like how Andraste was betrayed by Maferath. 

 

I do not think Bioware is championing the idea that jealous women wreck the world but rather the shite that could happen when one breaks the oath or promise they have take, in this case monogamous relationship, because of feels. 

[Bunny]

I do not think Bioware is championing the idea that jealous women wreck the world but rather the shite that could happen when one breaks the oath or promise they have take, in this case monogamous relationship, because of feels. 

 

And then they let F!Warden fall in love with Alistair and then hit the happy couple with the Dark Ritual.

[sim-ran]

If you asked Morrigan if the stories about the Flemeth legend she tells you that the real story was quite different. If her account its true then you're theory doesn't work.

We don't know for sure what really happened, but personally I'm inclined to believe the Flemeth/Morrigan's tale is more likely to be true than the folk tale.

[Patient.Zero]

The theme of the wife cheating on the husband, resulting in the husband going on a vengeful strike and killing the wife is evidently common in Thedas.

 

In actuality, both betrayed each other. The wife took a lover, which is a betrayal if you are in a monogamous relationship. The husband decided to kill the wife or imprison which is outright murder or restriction of freedom. 

 

This is good point. Why is it that Flemeth's husband is portrayed as the bad guy when she betrayed him as well? Plus I feel like Mythal as the goddess of justice, would have immediately seen the irony/fault in that logic. Perhaps Mythal just needed a body really bad and told Flemeth whatever it was she needed to hear in order make the witch a willing host for the ancient elven soul. I feel like Hiedir's theory is a pretty plausible one though, Elgar'nan could have just killed Mythal for a different reason.

[Fireheart]

It was at this moment that Mythal walked out of the sea of the Earth's tears and onto the land. She placed her hand on Elgar'nan's brow, and at her touch he grew calm and knew that his anger had led him astray.

 

Mythal, the Protector and the All-Mother, and goddess of love, is the patron of motherhood and justice and leads the pantheon with her male counterpart, Elgar'nan. In elven legend, when Elgar'nan threw the sun out of the sky in vengeance for burning the earth to ashes, Mythal calmed him and helped him see that he was wrong. Elgar'nan was convinced to free the sun. On the first night after the sun was released Mythal created the moon, from the glowing earth round its bed, to be placed in the sky as a pale reflection of the sun's true glory. Elves will invoke Mythal's name when they require protection. In the past, they also petitioned her on matters of justice and it is said that those who came to her with clear minds and open hearts were granted judgment and protection; Mythal harried their enemies until the end of their days. While those who tried to manipulate her wrath against those they envied or were being petty over imagined slights were swiftly struck down.

 

Mythal and Elgar'nan had five children: Falon'Din, Dirthamen, Andruil, Sylaise and June.

 

http://dragonage.wik...Great_Protector

 

I don't think Mythal was betrayed by her husband, what would be the point of that. I thought that before though, back before I brushed up on my elven lore and found out Mythal's husband was Elgarnan. After coming together the way they did, with Mythal being able to calm him down and help make his mom happy again, why would he betray Mythal, after all they had built together. I still haven't completely given up the theory of lover's betrayal, but I feel there's no basis, no evidence for it.

[Heidirs]

Mythal is known to the elves as the Great protecter, godedess of motherhood and justice. If it's true that by killing a deity you essentially remove what they represent from existence it would make sense that killing Mythal is considered a betrayal of the word. Living in a place without protection or justice does not sound like a good time.  

 

Good point. No protection and justice does sound like a betrayal of the world.Though, with it being only the elves who worshiped her, I wonder if it's a bit of stretch. That said, the elves attribute their fall to the gods "abandoning" them. So maybe if Mythal and the others had been around, that wouldn't have happened?

 

 

 Elgar'nan is the god of vengeance and was known to the elves as being a pretty hot headed fellow (throwing the sun out of the sky for example) If Flemeth is being literal about how she and Mythal were betrayed in the same way maybe Elgar'nan killed his wife out of the belief that she was in love with someone else. Like perhaps a really good friend who she would let absorb her powers *cough* Solas *cough* 

 

It's a bit of a stretch but maybe.

 

I have had that thought. Not that I think there would have been something going on, but that Elgar'nan might have thought there was. And for once Mythal couldn't calm him down. 

 

Don't know if I hold much stock in it, but it's a thought.

 

 

If you asked Morrigan if the stories about the Flemeth legend she tells you that the real story was quite different. If her account its true then you're theory doesn't work.

We don't know for sure what really happened, but personally I'm inclined to believe the Flemeth/Morrigan's tale is more likely to be true than the folk tale.

 

I don't remember Morrigan's version... I'll have to look that up.

 

 

 

I don't think Mythal was betrayed by her husband, what would be the point of that. I thought that before though, back before I brushed up on my elven lore and found out Mythal's husband was Elgarnan. After coming together the way they did, with Mythal being able to calm him down and help make his mom happy again, why would he betray Mythal, after all they had built together. I still haven't completely given up the theory of lover's betrayal, but I feel there's no basis, no evidence for it.

 

I have to agree that we don't have much to go on. But if Mythal really was betrayed as Flemeth was, I have to wonder. And since Solas has pretty much proven the Dalish accounts of the elven gods are incomplete, anything is a possibility. 

[Heidirs]

If you asked Morrigan if the stories about the Flemeth legend she tells you that the real story was quite different. If her account its true then you're theory doesn't work.

We don't know for sure what really happened, but personally I'm inclined to believe the Flemeth/Morrigan's tale is more likely to be true than the folk tale.

 

Okay, so I found Morrigan's story:

 

 

So there's a Lord who offer's Flemeth's husband money and power in exchange for Flemeth. Both Flemeth and her husband agree to the trade. However, the Lord did not honor the deal and instead killed Flemeth's husband.

 

So in that case... I don't know how that would fit with Mythal... In that cause, I could only think that someone she trusted, betrayed her. But I don't know if Elgar'nan specifically fits. It could have been any of the elven gods or none of them... perhaps someone else.

[Brockololly]

If you asked Morrigan if the stories about the Flemeth legend she tells you that the real story was quite different. If her account its true then you're theory doesn't work.

We don't know for sure what really happened, but personally I'm inclined to believe the Flemeth/Morrigan's tale is more likely to be true than the folk tale.

 

Eh, BioWare seemed hell bent on making Morrigan a big dumb head in Inquisition to the extent that everything she says basically ends up being wrong. So I don't know how much I'd believe from Morrigan since the writers seemed pretty intent on having all of her preconceived notions and knowledge being overturned.

[Heidirs]

Eh, BioWare seemed hell bent on making Morrigan a big dumb head in Inquisition to the extent that everything she says basically ends up being wrong. So I don't know how much I'd believe from Morrigan since the writers seemed pretty intent on having all of her preconceived notions and knowledge being overturned.

 

Perhaps, but in this case, Morrigan is reiterating what Flemeth has previously told her... which opens up the question of can we trust anything Flemeth says?

[DanAxe]

 

Mythal and Elgar'nan had five children: Falon'Din, Dirthamen, Andruil, Sylaise and June.

 

http://dragonage.wik...Great_Protector

 

 

I knew this already but only reading this did i realize.... Sera could be Flemeth's daughter.... Oh the horror.... (well not biologically ofc, i mean Mythal-Flemeth being Andruil-Sera's mother...)

 

Now I'll have nightmares about conversations between those 2... Cryptic meets gibberish... Crypterish....

[DanAxe]

I knew this already but only reading this did i realize.... Sera could be Flemeth's daughter.... Oh the horror.... (well not biologically ofc, i mean Mythal-Flemeth being Andruil-Sera's mother...)

 

Now I'll have nightmares about conversations between those 2... Cryptic meets gibberish... Crypterish....

 

 

Dang... I can totally picture Sera saying Crypterish... Thats totally a word she would use.... /creepedout

[MoonDrummer]

I'm not sure, I think it may have been Dirthamen, Falon'Din or Andruil that killed her, and afterwards Elgar'nan had a wee temper tantrum. 

[Heidirs]

I'm not sure, I think it may have been Dirthamen, Falon'Din or Andruil that killed her, and afterwards Elgar'nan had a wee temper tantrum. 

 

That could work as well. 

 

My theory with Solas locking the gods away is Mythal was murdered first. The gods fought among themselves over who it was, and without Mythal to calm them down, all out war was threatened. Solas thought locking them away would keep Elvanan from total destruction.

 

Another theory to throw out there.

[In Exile]

Eh, BioWare seemed hell bent on making Morrigan a big dumb head in Inquisition to the extent that everything she says basically ends up being wrong. So I don't know how much I'd believe from Morrigan since the writers seemed pretty intent on having all of her preconceived notions and knowledge being overturned.

That's true about everyone in Inquisition, including even Solas.

[Patient.Zero]

That could work as well. 

 

My theory with Solas locking the gods away is Mythal was murdered first. The gods fought among themselves over who it was, and without Mythal to calm them down, all out war was threatened. Solas thought locking them away would keep Elvanan from total destruction.

 

Another theory to throw out there.

 

M'lady you're a theory queen right now! 

 

The way I see it, there are five main points to what Flemeth says when you meet her in Inquisition: 
a.) Flemeth was betrayed 
b.) Mythal was betrayed 
c.) The word was betrayed 
d.) Something happened that was never suppose to happen
e.) Flemeth knows the hearts of men

I think Flemth's betrayal is most likely referring to the legend about her and her husband. The world's betrayal might be referring to the absence of justice and protection due to Mythal's death, which could tie into the the thing that happened which it never supposed to: the death of a god. The things I'm confused about is how exactly Mythal was betrayed and whether Flemeth is referring to "men" as in the human (or elven, dwarven, qunari) race or "men" as in the gender. 

[Heidirs]

I think Flemth's betrayal is most likely referring to the legend about her and her husband. The world's betrayal might be referring to the absence of justice and protection due to Mythal's death, which could tie into the the thing that happened which it never supposed to: the death of a god. The things I'm confused about is how exactly Mythal was betrayed and whether Flemeth is referring to "men" as in the human (or elven, dwarven, qunari) race or "men" as in the gender. 

 

Good distinction to make!

 

I was assuming the gender... but it could be race.

 

When an non elven Inquisitor asks why she didn't reveal herself to the elves and everyone, Mythal says she knows the hearts of men and she knows they do not want the truth. Perhaps, in this instance "men" is referring to people in general?

 

Though when saying "Mythal was betrayed as I was betrayed as the world was betrayed" she doesn't mention men specifically. So Flemeth may just be speaking of betrayal in a more general sense and not meaning that Mythal was betrayed by her husband as she was. And if Morigan's version of the tale is true, then Flemeth wasn't betrayed by her husband.

 

So that pretty much debunks the Elgar'nan theory, but that doesn't mean we can't try to come up with another!