74 réponses à ce sujet

[Assassino01]

Hasn't Bioware said they'll never confirm or deny the existence of the Maker in the DA universe?

[Toasted Llama]

Don't mind me, just casually digging up an old reply
 

In actuality, both betrayed each other. The wife took a lover, which is a betrayal if you are in a monogamous relationship.

Not everyone marries in the name of "love" so to speak, political marriages (wherein romantic relationships are absent) are very much a thing. See hardened King Alistair and Vivienne for proof. As such it's not necessarily two sided betrayal.

Granted I have no idea if the relationship between Mythal and Elgar'nan was a romantic relationship or not, as I'm awful with the elven pantheon :')

[Patient.Zero]

Not everyone marries in the name of "love" so to speak, political marriages (wherein romantic relationships are absent) are very much a thing. See hardened King Alistair and Vivienne for proof. As such it's not necessarily two sided betrayal.

Granted I have no idea if the relationship between Mythal and Elgar'nan was a romantic relationship or not, as I'm awful with the elven pantheon :')

 

Wouldn't it still be considered the breaking of an oath though? Even if only in the contractual sense? 

[Heidirs]

Wouldn't it still be considered the breaking of an oath though? Even if only in the contractual sense? 

 

Maybe. I think different people would have different perspectives on this.

 

And if you believe Morrigan's telling of the story, it's irrelevant anyway because in that version Flemeth didn't leave her husband for a lover. Flemeth's husband agrees to give Flemeth to another man (with Flemeth in agreement). Then the new guy kills her old husband because he's a jerk.

[myahele]

I only heard about this in other threads, but apparently proto-tevinter believed in a diety called the "Creator" who created the world and the the Old Gods where outside of his creation.

 

Also, it seems as if a cult similar to andrasteism was growing while the worship of the old gods were dwindling during Corypheus' time 

[turuzzusapatuttu]

Flemeth = Andraste

Elgar'Nan = The Maker

Solas = Shartan

 

My Theory.

 

Just... Why?

[Lethaya]

I'm gonna assume because of their similar appearance, his dreams of freedom, plus Shartan's role in encouraging the elves to rebel against Tevinter. Solas is pretty attached to notions of freedom and, if you take the codexes seriously, rebellion.

 

Seen that line of theorizing, but I'm not really a fan of it. It's interesting to think about, but if anything I think Dumat likely has more to do with the Andraste/Maker situation than Flemythal, but that's not really on topic, so! XD

 

As for Mythal, for now, I'm leaning towards either members of the Pantheon (particularly Falon'Din/Dirthamen or Andruil, though Elgar'nan works too, even if I find it a bit less ah. Interesting?) or the Forgotten Ones - orrrr both perhaps? We don't really know much about what the Forgotten Ones were, exactly. Considering the Pantheon is remembered as a family, her link to Flemeth could have been thanks to being betrayed by those you trusted or considered close more than a husbands-are-jerks type of deal. Or simply... well, betrayal. XD

[ollyollyoxenfree]

There is something interesting that Solas says when the Inquisitor says they trust their friends.

 

"I know that mistake well enough to carve the angles of her face from memory." (emphasis added)

 

The person who betrayed him may not be the same who betrayed Mythal but if so we're looking at a female. Assuming that it's another member of the pantheon it's Andruil, Sylaise or Ghilan'nain.

[Heidirs]

There is something interesting that Solas says when the Inquisitor says they trust their friends.

 

"I know that mistake well enough to carve the angles of her face from memory." (emphasis added)

 

The person who betrayed him may not be the same who betrayed Mythal but if so we're looking at a female. Assuming that it's another member of the pantheon it's Andruil, Sylaise or Ghilan'nain.

 

He could not be referring to anyone specifically. Emotions tend to be given a female pronoun.

 

But I like the idea! I also like the idea of the forgotten ones. I'm down with any of that.

[Texhnolyze101]

Dorians mustache.

[Toasted Llama]

Wouldn't it still be considered the breaking of an oath though? Even if only in the contractual sense? 

I doubt it, what oath would you be breaking? Unless you swear to stay "loyal" to your husband/wife at the wedding day (which I highly doubt, I mean, why would you do that if you don't love that person?), you're not breaking anything by having a healthy relationship outside of your political responsibilities.

Now if you're marrying another person besides your current wife/husband then that's a whole different story, because you can't be married twice.

[Patient.Zero]

I doubt it, what oath would you be breaking? Unless you swear to stay "loyal" to your husband/wife at the wedding day (which I highly doubt, I mean, why would you do that if you don't love that person?), you're not breaking anything by having a healthy relationship outside of your political responsibilities.

Now if you're marrying another person besides your current wife/husband then that's a whole different story, because you can't be married twice.

 

Hmm... Maybe so. I know that historically, people were not suppose to have extra extramarital affairs because it could result in children that neither the male or female party particularly wanted to take care of, because why spend money and resources raising a kid that's not yours to eventually inherit your stuff? This was particularly true of noble/royal/richer couples. That being said, situations like that don't seem to really be a problem for the people in the Dragon Age universe (or at least not for the Inquisitor, Hawke, or female Wardens). Also, like noted previously, depending on the version of Flemeth's story that's true this might not even matter. 

 

The two constants in both stories though seem to be: the breaking of an oath/promise and jealousy. 

[Gervaise]

With regard to Flemeth's betrayal both versions of the story have her husband kill her lover out of trickery, so the betrayal Flemeth refers to is probably that of someone promising something and then not delivering on that promise or some form of trickery.

 

I think Mythal's murder was in some way linked to the rise of Falon'Din.    Solas says that he became arrogant and wanted everyone to worship him but Mythal only took action when her own realm was threatened.   Possibly another god/goddess (or more than one) offered some sort of alliance against Falon'Din but in reality was setting a trap for her in which she was killed.   Dirthamen seems a likely candidate since he was meant to be very close to Falon'Din but in that case I doubt Mythal would trust him, so the idea it could in fact have been Elgannan is a good one as she would be more likely to trust him.   There is also June to consider, who is apparently not the simple god of craft as viewed by the Dalish but something of a mystery.     The one person who is not implicated is Fen'Harel, since clearly she bears no ill will to the dread wolf.

 

The world suffered as a result because without Mythal to dispense justice their culture descended into chaos and civil war that was only ended when Fen'Harel succeeded in locking the gods away.   Whatever magic was used to do this would seem to have robbed the elves of their immortality and thus the ruins of their empire was left easy prey to the rising power of Tevinter.     They seem to have adopted a fair number of elven magical practices, since Dorian recognises the orb that Corypheus uses as Tevinter until Solas corrects him and points out the elves developed them first.     The reason they rounded up the elves and kept them as slaves was not simply to use as cheap labour but that they recognised some remnant in their blood of the old magic, which made their use more potent in blood magic rituals.    I wonder if this was because the elf gods and their priests used to do the same. 

 

I do wonder if the old gods of Tevinter are linked in any way with the elf gods.   Andraste suggested that the old gods spoke to the Magisters from their prisons.   If the elf gods were angry at being imprisoned and blamed their own rebellious followers for their fate, it could account for why they sided with the rising power of Tevinter against what was left of them.       Also why they encouraged them to assault the Golden City if they believed it would lead to their freedom.    If you think about it, indirectly it did lead to the old gods being freed but not necessarily in the way they planned it.        As other people have previously pointed out, if you take out Mythal (murdered) and Fen'Harel (jailor), that leaves 7 elven gods to become the 7 old gods.    To date 5 have been released.    That would leave just the god of mysteries and the god of night (darkness/death) left; Dirmathen and Falon'Din.     There has to be some reason why Solas is nearly beside himself with regard to the Grey Wardens' plan to search out the last two gods (that has nothing to do with enslaving spirits), why he disapproves if you recount the glorious past of the Wardens (which resulted in the death of the previous five) and why he generally seems to hate the Wardens.

[myahele]

In the tomb of the emeral knights (which also have alot of falon'din paraphernalia) we see this:

 

 

I dont think Falon'din and co were pleased with Mythal.

[Heidirs]

I think Mythal's murder was in some way linked to the rise of Falon'Din.    Solas says that he became arrogant and wanted everyone to worship him but Mythal only took action when her own realm was threatened.   Possibly another god/goddess (or more than one) offered some sort of alliance against Falon'Din but in reality was setting a trap for her in which she was killed.   Dirthamen seems a likely candidate since he was meant to be very close to Falon'Din but in that case I doubt Mythal would trust him, so the idea it could in fact have been Elgannan is a good one as she would be more likely to trust him.   There is also June to consider, who is apparently not the simple god of craft as viewed by the Dalish but something of a mystery.     The one person who is not implicated is Fen'Harel, since clearly she bears no ill will to the dread wolf.

 

I think this theory. Any of those could work.

[Bunny]

I think I'm going to load an earlier save and take Solas with me to the Frostback Basin. Just because of this thread. 

[Patient.Zero]

(http://mattrhodesart...ed-his-override)

Just want to point out that the a vallaslin corresponding to Elgar'nan is literally two-faced. 

[Heimdall]

My theory is that she refused to take part in whatever conflict put Fen'Harel against the others, prompting Elgar'nan's rage.

I like the Falon'din theory as well though.

[BMcDill]

I agree that the use of the word “men” means mankind, not gender.  “All men are created equal” all mankind is created equal…same use.

 

I believe the betrayal was the siege and the corruption unleashed in the golden city.  Mankind, the mages of Traventer attacked heaven is an effort to steal from the kingdom of heaven, more or less.  Attacking god(s) their creators.  Mankind was willing and determined to take everything away from those that gave them life.  Their act symbolizes the worldly corruption of Mankind.

 

That is the betrayal Mythal is speaking of.  Regardless of scope any individual betrayal the essence, the components of betrayal, are the same be it a husband betraying a wife, a son betraying a father or mother, one turns to take more than what was given or take lone possession of something that was shared.  This theme is repeated in the tale of Flemeth, Andraste, even your Gray Warden, his/her family was betrayed by a family friend who wanted everything your family had, land, title, wealth, social standing…

 

In short, I think the fall of the golden city, which is just another name of heaven, be it elven or human heaven, potato patato, is the great betrayal.  IT was the start of the destruction of the gods; it was mankind’s original sin in this world.

[M-Taylor]

(http://mattrhodesart...ed-his-override)

Just want to point out that the a vallaslin corresponding to Elgar'nan is literally two-faced. 

 

I always thought that was because he was heavily related to Sun imagery. You know, one side corresponds with day time and the other corresponds with night time.

[myahele]

I think she's referring to all the mortal races as men, especially since she has not issues appearing as a human yet was depicted as an elf back during ancient times 

[Patient.Zero]

I always thought that was because he was heavily related to Sun imagery. You know, one side corresponds with day time and the other corresponds with night time.

 

Perhaps. Elgar'nan's father was believed by the elves to have been the sun it's self. A story I find rather interesting since the sun and moon are usually both deities in mythology/ lore (like in Greek mythology the "powers" of the sun and the moon where divided between the twins Apollo and Diana) but according to elven lore the moon is just a thing Mythal put in the sky. 

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

Hasn't Bioware said they'll never confirm or deny the existence of the Maker in the DA universe?

 

Well, Gaider said he wouldn't but he's gone now, so who knows.

[DanteYoda]

I'd put Spoilers but i have no clue how ... Sorry

 

Everyone says Solas killed Flemeth at the end of Inquisition, the fact is he took the power? or god from Flemeth and she fell down, is she dead? or unconcious, when Flemeth took the God from Morrigans son he never died, he was tired and fine, but he was younger and only had it in him a shorter time..

[Assassino01]

I'd put Spoilers but i have no clue how ... Sorry

 

Everyone says Solas killed Flemeth at the end of Inquisition, the fact is he took the power? or god from Flemeth and she fell down, is she dead? or unconcious, when Flemeth took the God from Morrigans son he never died, he was tired and fine, but he was younger and only had it in him a shorter time..

 

I'm fairly certain there is credible sources confirming that Flemeth placed the soul of Mythal in the Eluvian for Morrigan to find, before her remaining power was absorbed by Solas and she perished.