56 réponses à ce sujet

[Ynqve]

^Its more like why the Crows did not managed to kill Zevran not why Zevran failed. Anyway the Crows and Antiva seem to be inspired by the Hashishin who were destroyed by none other then the Mongols so I wonder why did that order of Assasins that made even Saladin retreat did not killed the mongol general that destroyed them?

  Can they not trade with the new Avar state after all its new and lots of resources for trade and not a lot of knowlege about the hidden aspects of trade. In their place I would smell profit.

 

They are already invested in business with Orlais and Ferelden. And Avvar craftsmanship is crude and primitive compared to Fereldan and especially Orlesian goods. Why would they burn their current investments for some goatskins and a crude axe? 

[LonewandererD]

You must have a messed up nose then. Would use would Avaar, a hunter gatherer society, have for mining, logging or something like Vineyards? The Orlesians are offering money and trade now where as the Avaar have no real use for money and only trade for immediate gain, why would the Antivans risk losing what they have now for no guarantee of money in the future

 

Also, Zevran was only hunted by one cell at a time, its a lot harder to track down a single elf in a population of thousands, its a lot easier to track down a central commander at the head of a horde.

 

-D-

[o Ventus]

No technological advantage is true but neither did the mongols or the arabs had and they were still very succesful.

 

"neither did the mongols or the arabs"

 

It would help if you weren't so incredibly vague. The Ottoman Empire and the Persian Empire were both incredibly large and advanced. That's how they conquered. The Khan lineage would go on to rule the longest-lasting empire in history.

[helpthisguyplease]

^What is the name of that empire from the lineage of the Khan? The Ottoman was a turkish empire not mongol they rose from the former Rum sultanate that was a fragment of the former Seljuk Empire that was formed by a coalition of turkish tribes lead by dude named Seljuk. And what empire based in Persia do you mean the Timurids?  Either way none of them are from the great Khan lineage or are mongols or arabs.

 

You must have a messed up nose then. Would use would Avaar, a hunter gatherer society, have for mining, logging or something like Vineyards? The Orlesians are offering money and trade now where as the Avaar have no real use for money and only trade for immediate gain, why would the Antivans risk losing what they have now for no guarantee of money in the future

 

Also, Zevran was only hunted by one cell at a time, its a lot harder to track down a single elf in a population of thousands, its a lot easier to track down a central commander at the head of a horde.

  You do not get what I mean its does not matter how their craftmanship is because they will still have mining, logging or something like Vineyards in the people they conquered for example the mongols did not had any of that but they still traded because they still kept the people who did the mining and the logging and the craftmanship but they did not had restrictive trade laws. Its like new posibilities of investment and profit and they also remove the competition Orlais and Ferelden was in the rest of Thedas. The point is simple, countries do not care so much, for example when the Ottomans were a danger for all of Europe why did not all Catholic countries when on a crusade against them, I know there were crusades but not all Catholic countries answered the call. Just because there is a Exalted March it does not mean all will answer did all answered the call  in the previous ones when the Qunary attacked?

  If a Exalted March will ever be called in the case of Orlais or Ferelden's defeat the ones who will answer is Nevara the rest either do not have a army are not mostly Andrastians or just do not care.

[Sifr]

Doubtful that such an invasion would enter their minds, since most of the Avvar we've seen embrace the challenge of living up in the Frostbacks, believe they have more than enough space and fertile lands to let them live comfortably and have little-to-no interest in the lowlands whatsoever?

 

With Ferelden or Orlais being just an disinterested in the Frostbacks in turn, the Avvar really have got no-one aside from their rival tribes clamouring to take their lands from them, so they've not really got any scores to settle with the lowlanders enough to want to invade?

 

While they have in the past, they've always been pushed back and those tribes that have attempted to it tend to be wiped out in reprisal, so it dissuades the others from wanting to make any attempt even if they were so inclined? The most that Sun-hair tells us that they tend to do is launch the occasional small raid, but those are done less out of any kind of malice or intent to conquer, but because they believe that it helps "to keep both sides sharp" and nurture a healthy respect and/or fear of them from outsiders.

[helpthisguyplease]

^You might be right there I do no get of course why they did not needed more teritory after hundreds of years.

[o Ventus]

^What is the name of that empire from the lineage of the Khan? The Ottoman was a turkish empire not mongol they rose from the former Rum sultanate that was a fragment of the former Seljuk Empire that was formed by a coalition of turkish tribes lead by dude named Seljuk. And what empire based in Persia do you mean the Timurids?  Either way none of them are from the great Khan lineage or are mongols or arabs.

 

I never called the Ottomans or Persians mongols. Khan's empire is only ever referred to as the Mongolian Empire, to my knowledge. When I said the Persian Empire, I was referring to the Achaemenid era Persians (so, the first Persian Empire founded by Cyrus). The Mongolian Empire is the longest-lasting empire in history, while the Persians had the largest in terms of sheer size.

[helpthisguyplease]

^The other way around I think you meant Mongol the largest, Persian the longest and still not true as GB was the largest and Japan the longest or the Ottomans if you do not think Japan was a empire.

[o Ventus]

^The other way around I think you meant Mongol the largest, Persian the longest and still not true as GB was the largest and Japan the longest or the Ottomans if you do not think Japan was a empire.

 

The Persian Empire made up 44% of the world's population at it's height, the highest figure of any empire in history. Straight from Guinness. In terms of landmass, you're right. I should have clarified when I said "size".

[helpthisguyplease]

^At the world population then it could be I guess.

[Ynqve]

  You do not get what I mean its does not matter how their craftmanship is because they will still have mining, logging or something like Vineyards in the people they conquered for example the mongols did not had any of that but they still traded because they still kept the people who did the mining and the logging and the craftmanship but they did not had restrictive trade laws. Its like new posibilities of investment and profit and they also remove the competition Orlais and Ferelden was in the rest of Thedas. The point is simple, countries do not care so much, for example when the Ottomans were a danger for all of Europe why did not all Catholic countries when on a crusade against them, I know there were crusades but not all Catholic countries answered the call. Just because there is a Exalted March it does not mean all will answer did all answered the call  in the previous ones when the Qunary attacked?

  If a Exalted March will ever be called in the case of Orlais or Ferelden's defeat the ones who will answer is Nevara the rest either do not have a army are not mostly Andrastians or just do not care.

 

Once more: a bunch of goatskins and bear pelts won't make up for the loss of Orlesian and Fereldan trade. 

 

They probably would have united if the Ottomans had invaded and sacked Rome. Which is pretty much what you're talking about when you claim that the Avvar could take over Orlais and no one would care. The seat of the Chantry is in Val Royeaux, and despite everything that's happened Nevarra, the Free Marches, Antiva, the Anderfels and the main part of Rivain is still andrastrian. They wouldn't turn a blind eye to something like that. 

 

Bottom line is that no one could possibly have anything to gain by the Avvar invading the south of Thedas. I suppose there could be a Tevinter magister or two who'd get a laugh out of it but that's about it. 

[helpthisguyplease]

^Nevarra could have I mean let Orlais be defeated and take the territory in a Exalted March with Nevarra the only army in that Exalted March. Pure profit for Nevarra.

  Also did you knew that Rome was sacked in the 15th century and nobody did a crusade on the one who did that? Rulers do not care that much for their religion as you think.

[Ynqve]

^Nevarra could have I mean let Orlais be defeated and take the territory in a Exalted March with Nevarra the only army in that Exalted March. Pure profit for Nevarra.

  Also did you knew that Rome was sacked in the 15th century and nobody did a crusade on the one who did that? Rulers do not care that much for their religion as you think.

 

That's because the people responsible were christian. The main selling point of the crusades was to reclaim the holy land for Christianity, I imagine they would have used the same argument if the Ottomans had gained control of the Vatican. 

 

But it's all besides the point. The important thing is that your idea of how the Avvar could invade the rest of Thedas and get away with it is completely unrealistic due to a lack manpower, resources, motive and a leader to rally behind. 

[LonewandererD]

I go away for one night and this thread, much like the Avaar, are fighting a losing battle.

 

Also, every time you try and use real examples to back up your claims it has no value here. This is not the real world, the Avaar are not the same kind of people as the Mongols or Huns or Turks, they are the Avaar; a small mountain dwelling culture you seem to have turned their back on the outside world to live in the Frostbacks. Thedas is not the real world, it borrows some inspirations from the real world but it doesn't follow the laws of the real world, this is a world of demons, a whole race that used to inhabit a massive underground empire and ashen horned giants riding in steel ships belching cannon balls while the rest of the world throws fireballs at them; don't recall that happening in the real world.

 

Sorry, they may have had some power once but nowadays if the Avaar where to challenge southern Thedas today then southern Thedas is gonna win.

 

-D-

[helpthisguyplease]

 The Avars have better mages, a well trained population, versatility and modern weapons as they have armor, shields, swords and bows while I did not saw any siege weapons do you really need some when you can climb the wall? What technology besides siege weapons do Ferelden and Orlais have that is more advance?

[Ashagar]

 Their tribes and from what I know from our history they do not need to have the number to invade, example are Mongols, Magyars, Cumans, real life Avars, Lombards, Franks, Slavs, Pechenegs, Jin's, Kitans and the most succesful of all Arabs.

 

The Germanic tribes invaded the Roman Empire after two different outbreaks of what was most likely the first major outbreaks f small pox wiped out the majority of the population of the empire in the second and third centuries leading to shortages in manpower in both agriculture and military manpower. As fort he arabs, alans and slavs they also basically basically won slightly because of religious and political troubles and majorly because fact the med was effectively depopulated by bubonic plague which likely also aided the Anglo-Saxon take over of Britain.

 

 

Its generally not hard to win wars when most of the population gets wiped out by plagues before hand. Somehow I don't expect a convenient plague is going to strike and wipe out the majority of the populations of Ferelden or Orlais leaving the survivors in tatters in time for a Avvar invasion.

[leaguer of one]

Because they had no will to. You want a group to invade, you need a leader or group to unite them to do that and the Avvar are just a bunch of individual tribes who have lesser cares then expansion. The ones that do want to invade are a bunch of warmongering zealots and they never had the push for them to get the rest to fallow.

They need to have the will to invade to invade.

[leaguer of one]

The Germanic tribes invaded the Roman Empire after two different outbreaks of what was most likely the first major outbreaks f small pox wiped out the majority of the population of the empire in the second and third centuries leading to shortages in manpower in both agriculture and military manpower. As fort he arabs, alans and slavs they also basically basically won slightly because of religious and political troubles and majorly because fact the med was effectively depopulated by bubonic plague which likely also aided the Anglo-Saxon take over of Britain.

 

 

Its generally not hard to win wars when most of the population gets wiped out by plagues before hand. Somehow I don't expect a convenient plague is going to strike and wipe out the majority of the populations of Ferelden or Orlais leaving the survivors in tatters in time for a Avvar invasion.

The time the first jaws showed up and was about to invade was after a blight so.....

[LonewandererD]

Yeah, I'll point you at a sheer fifty foot wall and see how well you climb it. As for technology, I can get together a bunch of guys with rifles but does that mean I can overthrow the military, I mean we both have guns so what advantage could they possibly have. How about boiling pitch for your fumbling wall climbers, or ballistas, crossbows, silverite and horses.

 

Also consider this, the Avaar as a people have been in decline for a while unlike groups like the Germanic tribes and the Mongols who weren't. As a nomadic people they take the whole tribe with them as they go, this includes the young, the elderly and the womenfolk. They can't just leave them in the mountains where other tribes can get at them without the protection of their warriors so they would have to take them with them. They may be nomadic but they have to stop and make camp and search for food as they are a hunter gatherer society and so don't have any form of supply line to call upon, and whilst on foot they came fall prey to roving heavily armoured bands of unhappy chevaliers, Ash Warriors, Mabaris and embittered Dalish clans. If they bring their non-combatants with them how do you suppose they'll fair against an hostile local force looking for vengeance.

 

Suppose they don't just get slaughtered in the wilderness and actually make it to Val Royeux, how do you intent to take the capital? With no siege weapon or knowledge of siege craft in general and the great floor of trying to climb a sheer wall how do you intent to win out of the defenders? The Avaar don't have supplies and subsist on a hunter/gatherer lifestyle so they're going to lose supplies quickly as the local game and flora becomes scarce. They could try to raid farms and such but the Orlesian and nothing if not spiteful and uncaring of the lower class so a scorched earth retreat policy so that's won't help. You could try and send hunters further a field but that would diminish your besieging force making them vulnerable to sortie. Now face off against a foe who have vast supplies and resources to call upon from further afield and can simply counteract and experience the Avaar have in combat with a hedgerow of pikes and a rain of their own arrows.

 

And consider this, if a band of hunter will come under emotional distress just from a bad hunt believing their gods are displeased. In a hostile foreign land how long would it take before shamans start the whispers of dissent and whole tribes begin to dissert to return to relative safety and certainty of their mountain home in the face of death, disease, starvation, squabbling over loot and all the other unpleasantries that come with war.

 

And this is all a moot point as you still have to overcome your very first stumbling block. Why would the Avaar ever want to risk it all for nothing. They care not for Orlais or conquest and look down on the lowlands, they like their mountains and feel safe/strong there. The Avaars are individuals by nature, each tribe a separate entity, they would not be a single horde but rather a collection of smaller hordes and yet the Orlesians or the Fereldens would be one. To quote Robert Baratheon; "Which is the biggest number, five or one? One. One army, a real army, united behind one leader with one purpose". The Fereldens may squabble amongst themselves but they are just as proud a martially adept as the Avaar and now you've come stomping in their backyard, into their playfield. Remember these are the same Fereldens that ended a Blight in the shortest span in history and gave the Orlesians the boot; how well do you think some disorganised barbarians will do against that? As for Orlais, why attack Orlais? In Ferelden they have the excuse of originally being from the Almarri people so they have something to try and reclaim but in Orlais there is no prospect beyond loot to motivate them if you can even get the people together in one place with the blessing of the shamans to begin with.

 

Finally, point me to some proof that says the Avaar have better mages, versatility and well trained populace. I need more than your word, I need cite codex entries and articles. This is a people that have been written and exist in an albeit fictional but well documented universe, you need some in universe proof to show they'll win.

 

-D-

[helpthisguyplease]

 ^Okay in the new release we have the oportunity to conscript a Avar mage who in a operation simply outdid the southern mages in skill.

  About versatility well they are traders, hunters, sportsman, warriors, craftsman trainers of beasts and other that I did not checked.

  Have you seen the muscles on them the sports they do because besides climbing walls they like to fight a lot, my evidence is the freaking Arena.

Ferelden let armies unchecked on their territory as a proof of how weak they are really why do people keep telling me that they are strong because right now they are a failure as a state since they could not even protect their own people.

 

The Germanic tribes invaded the Roman Empire after two different outbreaks of what was most likely the first major outbreaks f small pox wiped out the majority of the population of the empire in the second and third centuries leading to shortages in manpower in both agriculture and military manpower. As fort he arabs, alans and slavs they also basically basically won slightly because of religious and political troubles and majorly because fact the med was effectively depopulated by bubonic plague which likely also aided the Anglo-Saxon take over of Britain.

 

 

Its generally not hard to win wars when most of the population gets wiped out by plagues before hand. Somehow I don't expect a convenient plague is going to strike and wipe out the majority of the populations of Ferelden or Orlais leaving the survivors in tatters in time for a Avvar invasion.

  True but you chose the ones who attacked when there was a plague before their invasion, but you ignored the mongols, the kitans, the jins and the magyars who did not have that luck before their invasion. Oh and the Turks chose which one of them you want, I would the ones who took territory from the Tang at their peak.

[Das Tentakel]

 

‚Let’s invade Ferelden’

 

‚What would I want in Ferelden? It’s a dump. We’re Avars, not Avvars’

 

‘Ever had the impression somebody was being lazy with names?’

[LonewandererD]

I'm looking at the official fluff and I'm not seeing anything about Ferelden leaving armies unchecked, care to cite that, especially considering that the Avaar don't have a concept of what an army is. Or maybe they aren't a threat. All those versatile things can be descriptive of any nation. The Antivans can trade, the Dalish can hunt, the Marchers hold Tourneys, the Nevarrans are skilled fighters and the Ferelden often use Mabari war hounds; the Avaar are hardly special. Also, you want to talk size of the Avaars, congrats they're just big enough to be a Qunari's towel boy. Qunaris are the size champs, hell ogres are based off Qunaris, and even they couldn't conquer southern Thedas, the smaller Avaar will have to use something other than there size.

 

Also if you're referring to in-game models of the Avaar, my dwarf rogue mopped the floor with a Avaar chieftain on Nightmare mode in a straight fight. Also care to provide a clear example of an Avaar arena and evidence that all Avaar actively use them on a regular basis, should I assume all Chinese are body builders because of the few I've seen at the local gym? Those guys could crush my head so they all must be huge right?

 

Oh, can't protect their own people, one of the strongest nations in Thedas who have turned back the Orlesians, the Imperium, the Qunari, the Blight and the Avaar all the while coming out of each conflict intact and a little stronger. I mean they have nothing on the Avaar, how can you stand up to the mighty barbarians who were driven into the mountains and can toss a whole goat at a castle. I can throw half a goat but a whole goat? Surely they must be superhuman.

 

Cite your sources, speculation is not evidence and real world examples don't count in a fictional setting.

 

-D-

[Ashagar]

 ^Okay in the new release we have the oportunity to conscript a Avar mage who in a operation simply outdid the southern mages in skill.

  About versatility well they are traders, hunters, sportsman, warriors, craftsman trainers of beasts and other that I did not checked.

  Have you seen the muscles on them the sports they do because besides climbing walls they like to fight a lot, my evidence is the freaking Arena.

Ferelden let armies unchecked on their territory as a proof of how weak they are really why do people keep telling me that they are strong because right now they are a failure as a state since they could not even protect their own people.

 

  True but you chose the ones who attacked when there was a plague before their invasion, but you ignored the mongols, the kitans, the jins and the magyars who did not have that luck before their invasion. Oh and the Turks chose which one of them you want, I would the ones who took territory from the Tang at their peak.

 

The turks had the advantage of Byzathine treachery often did their job for them which is why they got a foothold in Asia minor in the first place, well that and the Byzathine empier was also slugging it out with the Holy Roman Empire which at that time was one of the most powerful states in the world and the Normans, a major war that forced the HRE to let Poland become independent so they could focus on the war in Italy. Much later the Byzathine empire was pretty much doomed after the hijacked fourth crusade ripped out the heart of the empire and broke it rendering it a shadow of it self.

 

As for the Mongols I can't say much though they did have the advantage of numbers, sheer terror and brutality as well as divided china to start out before they got truly massive. Also like the Magyars and Huns many of their enemies had issues facing the sort of horse archer tactics that often led them to fall for ruses and all three were parts of large tribal confederations under strong leadership.

[X Equestris]

^Okay in the new release we have the oportunity to conscript a Avar mage who in a operation simply outdid the southern mages in skill.
  About versatility well they are traders, hunters, sportsman, warriors, craftsman trainers of beasts and other that I did not checked.
  Have you seen the muscles on them the sports they do because besides climbing walls they like to fight a lot, my evidence is the freaking Arena.
Ferelden let armies unchecked on their territory as a proof of how weak they are really why do people keep telling me that they are strong because right now they are a failure as a state since they could not even protect their own people.
 

  True but you chose the ones who attacked when there was a plague before their invasion, but you ignored the mongols, the kitans, the jins and the magyars who did not have that luck before their invasion. Oh and the Turks chose which one of them you want, I would the ones who took territory from the Tang at their peak.

You're throwing the Magyars in here? Are you forgetting that the Magyars ended up failing?

[helpthisguyplease]

I'm looking at the official fluff and I'm not seeing anything about Ferelden leaving armies unchecked, care to cite that, especially considering that the Avaar don't have a concept of what an army is. Or maybe they aren't a threat. All those versatile things can be descriptive of any nation. The Antivans can trade, the Dalish can hunt, the Marchers hold Tourneys, the Nevarrans are skilled fighters and the Ferelden often use Mabari war hounds; the Avaar are hardly special. Also, you want to talk size of the Avaars, congrats they're just big enough to be a Qunari's towel boy. Qunaris are the size champs, hell ogres are based off Qunaris, and even they couldn't conquer southern Thedas, the smaller Avaar will have to use something other than there size.

 

Also if you're referring to in-game models of the Avaar, my dwarf rogue mopped the floor with a Avaar chieftain on Nightmare mode in a straight fight. Also care to provide a clear example of an Avaar arena and evidence that all Avaar actively use them on a regular basis, should I assume all Chinese are body builders because of the few I've seen at the local gym? Those guys could crush my head so they all must be huge right?

 

Oh, can't protect their own people, one of the strongest nations in Thedas who have turned back the Orlesians, the Imperium, the Qunari, the Blight and the Avaar all the while coming out of each conflict intact and a little stronger. I mean they have nothing on the Avaar, how can you stand up to the mighty barbarians who were driven into the mountains and can toss a whole goat at a castle. I can throw half a goat but a whole goat? Surely they must be superhuman.

 

Cite your sources, speculation is not evidence and real world examples don't count in a fictional setting.

 

-D-

So what if they defeated them they still let an armry unchecked in their own land. And no Ferelden and Orzimmar where the ones who defeated the Last Blight not only Ferelden.So what that sometimes they won they also lost Ferelden is not the powerful millitary country you keep praising it to be and do not forget that they were conquered by Orlais first then later they defeated them after they lost. The Arena is a place where the Avar gain honor and prestige and settle their differences. Also if you do not cite your sources why should I do it?

 Just because you say they do not count that does not mean that they do not count. So I will say this prove that they do not count.

You're throwing the Magyars in here? Are you forgetting that the Magyars ended up failing?

They did not failed they survived they made a state after they destroyed Moravia a state that still survives until this day. They were pretty succesful nomands.