Given that the majority of Players are likely here to slay Dragons, Darkspawn, and Demons, and not pacify them with Varric's writings or Cassandra's poetry, it is probably safe to say that violence will be encountered. That said, I have utilized the reduced gore functions for the entire series as my preference.
And I am willing to guess that there are few here supporting nudity, sex, and profanity that wish to see all the violence removed; not that would make them hypocrites or anything....
I'd say that's dancing around the issue. Given you just made claims to morality being the central issue, I think the fact that Bioware games like Dragon Age center around killing things (sometimes without cause) is evidence against your claim. Hell, Bethesda gives players the ability to murder npc's whenever we want. Should that be removed?
We should solve all our problems through words and diplomacy by your stand point, reduced gore or not.
I was going more for how the manner characters have sex is what's used to give narrative weight to a scene in e.g. film. The point isn't sex but how sex reflects on the characters, well, character. In an RPG that doesn't really work, unless you get to use the sex to define your character.
Watchmen was a great example of the above, I felt.
I'd say that's dancing around the issue. Given you just made claims to morality being the central issue, I think the fact that Bioware games like Dragon Age center around killing things (sometimes without cause) is evidence against your claim. Hell, Bethesda gives players the ability to murder npc's whenever we want. Should that be removed? We should solve all our problems through words and diplomacy by your stand point, reduced gore or not.
I had no idea that killing Dragons, Darkspawn, and Demons could be so problematic. Guess it does not bother me that often, seeing as these are often dangerous, occasionally evil, and currently fictional. While I give more consideration to those characters like Howe, Loghain, and other more human representatives, given the setting and available systems in play for justice, I make the best RP call as I am able.
And killing is not the same as murder; terms often used synonymously, but in error.
That's some bold satement there. For me, the best RPG I ever played (I was 15 at the time) was NWN's expansion Hordes of the Underdark or Icewinddale 2. Then I'd play things like Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines and everything changed. I loved that game with all my feels. Also, Morrowind or Fallout 3/New Vegas. I base this on my memories/nostalgia/experiences at the time.
I have a very intense hate-love relantionship with the Mass Effect franchise. However, Dragon Age has come a long way since those "first" RPG's. I feel like a mother honestly. You can't make her pick who she loves the most of all her children. Can't really say. Different times, different needs...
Thank you for calling me a weirdo. Hadn't happened for a long time. FYI I'm 46 and female. I find in any game PLENTY of things that add nothing to the story and nothing to the gameplay, and still they are there and no one questions them. Like exploring and jumping cliffs. I feel they are needless chores, but what do you know, this game got GOTY for it.
You are immature. If you would be mature, you would just skip the 1 minute a sex scene takes (what sex? All I have seen is Dorians butt and lord it was high time to see some male butt here). You wouldn't do romances at all, because you would know they are not for your tastes. The "mature" part comes from understanding that games are not made just for you, and you are not some kind of a proto type of human being, something so perfect that we all should look, feel and act like you. Your opinions are not Gods word and thus better than anyone else, and definitely no one put you on the pedestal to look down on other people and judge them from there.
Obviously sex makes you anxious and quilty. Your business, not mine, but understand that it is you and it has nothing to do with rest of us.You say you do it rather than watch it, so do I, but if someone else liking to see some HINTS of sex in their entertainment it shouldn't bother you a bit. All these game with semi-sexual content are for adults (over 18-years old), and what little sex there it is you can see more sex in underwear advertisement on street. Do I care to see Geralt banging someone in doggystyle ( I did not even know he does it, but you do, so the interest is there, right?), no. Does it bother me, NO. Why should it? Let him! I doubt a single person watches it with a boner, it is so little what is shown.
I didn't find the sex scenes in inquisition bad at all. I was talking about the over the top sex scenes in games like the Witcher series. Do you get off on watching pixelated people have sex? You're weird. Do you not and just don't mind? You're not. Simple as that. Sex doesn't make me anxious and guilty, I was quite promiscuous before I was married, I just believe that EXPLICIT sex doesn't need to be in video games. It adds nothing to the story whatsoever and only serves as "Sex sells" fodder. Try to pin me as some religious little prude all you wish, you'd still be wrong on all counts. Also as I stated in the witcher games I played there was no option to skip the scenes. Had there been I wouldn't be complaining. I made the choices I wanted to make in the game and I was punished by being forced to watch crude teenage boy fantasy fodder that I couldn't skip.
Excessive violence and crude sex scenes are far too commonplace in today's media and it has nothing to do with maturity. In fact it has everything to do with immaturity. If the greater population was more intelligent they wouldn't need that sort of thing to be drawn into a story. Unfortunately some people do. Hence why sex and violence sell so much when they do nothing overall for the story.
I had no idea that killing Dragons, Darkspawn, and Demons could be so problematic. Guess it does not bother me that often, seeing as these are often dangerous, occasionally evil, and currently fictional. While I give more consideration to those characters like Howe, Loghain, and other more human representatives, given the setting and available systems in play for justice, I make the best RP call as I am able.
And killing is not the same as murder; terms often used synonymously, but in error.
Well, we could say that killing Dragons does demonstrate cruelty towards animals. As for demons, well, we ourselves are in essence directly responsible for their current state given the role of spirits and the Fade.
Basically, I'm saying that you have no coherent argument. You've created some arbitrary boundary which separates sex and profanity up against violence. If gaming is simply meant to uphold some higher morality as you put it, giving players a potential hero complex or indulging in their darker emotions, which RPG's typically do, your argument rather should be "no violence, ever". After all, these adults aren't mature to understand what it is they're engaging in.
All this "morality in games" doesn't mean anything, because they're video games. What I hate most is when people try to tack on moral, social, political, etc. issues to virtual entertainment. It doesn't belong there.
Terodil, Innsmouth Dweller et DanteYoda aiment ceci
I was talking about the over the top sex scenes in games like the Witcher series.
I didn't care for TW sex scenes, even less for those "I banged X" trophy cards, and I'll leave the question whether they were "over-the-top" open to debate. That said...
Do you get off on watching pixelated people have sex? You're weird. Do you not and just don't mind? You're not. Simple as that.
Actually it's not simple. "Weird" is generally used to mean "unusual", "deviant", and is habitually laced with a distinct undertone of "morally bad". I really don't see how a person's very private sex life should be subject to a "norm", let alone a moral judgment -- with the usual proviso that if other people are involved, everything should be consensual and safe. So what if Jill 'enjoys' watching bees pollinating the flowers on her balcony? So what if Jack 'enjoys' watching pixelated sex? How does either make them "weird" so that we should judge them for it?
[...] I just believe that EXPLICIT sex doesn't need to be in video games. It adds nothing to the story whatsoever and only serves as "Sex sells" fodder.
I think the core issue is the difference betweeen "doesn't need" and "should not have". A lot of your argument reads as the latter disguised as the former. I completely agree that games "don't need" violence or sex. In fact, we humans "do not need" anything much beyond food, water and air, so why even bother with proper cooking, operas, science, or pornography?
As a customer I can choose how I react to the presence of violence, sex, or other potentially controversial elements in media. I can choose to use them or to give them a pass. Sometimes I have to make a compromise, e.g. I love the story so much that the grievances can be easily forgiven.
I don't mind criticism such as "X was too much, please tone it down for the next installment" -- it's a personal opinion that deserves to at least be heard. I do get annoyed at voices that clamor for change because stuff that they personally don't agree with is "weird".
PhroXenGold, Ascendra, Boogielicious et 2 autres aiment ceci
I would be more comfortable if you removed the 'we' from your thread title. DA:I is certainly not the best RPG I have ever played. Not even close. In fact it isn't even the best RPG I have played this year. (That distinction would go to Pillars of Eternity.)
In the same way that most of the romance track content isn't really the stuff of an RPG, you mean? Most of the time you're either on the train or off it
Yeah, basically. Though at least you get some character defining dialogue in the context of it e.g. with Bastilla in KoTOR.
Romantic plots involving the PC are a good idea no one wants to do anything with in RPGs. Bioware isn't doing much with it and other developers like Obsidian thumb their nose at it despite the potential.
Let's look at KoTOR2. I think a twisted romance between Atris and the Exile (whether one sided or not, bound up in the formalities and prejudice of the Jedi Order) sets up a wonderful and tragic back drop to that story.
All this "morality in games" doesn't mean anything, because they're video games. What I hate most is when people try to tack on moral, social, political, etc. issues to virtual entertainment. It doesn't belong there.
I'm not sure I get what you mean. Isn't half of what one does in a Bioware game is make decisions based off of one's own sense of morality? And this is just my opinion, but I tend to lump video games with movies and books as sources of entertainment. We've definitely seen lots of moral/social/political issues in movies and books, so I guess I don't see why we wouldn't be seeing them in certain video games as well.
I'm not sure I get what you mean. Isn't half of what one does in a Bioware game is make decisions based off of one's own sense of morality? And this is just my opinion, but I tend to lump video games with movies and books as sources of entertainment. We've definitely seen lots of moral/social/political issues in movies and books, so I guess I don't see why we wouldn't be seeing them in certain video games as well.
I agree with you, that's what (at least used to) make Bioware game interesting for me: the moral/social/political issues.
I think the point s/he was trying to make, or at least the point I would like to make, is: Make moral/social/political topics part of your game, great. Make your game as part of of your moral/social/political agenda, not so great. That's probably not very clear, so I'll try to give an example by way of KoTOR:
- Give the player character the option to become the evil overlord of the galaxy ("dark side" ending) (and possibly heap on some guilt/make your players feel the cost in the process, e.g. by having to kill your other companions), GREAT!
- Feel the need to educate people to do "the right thing", therefore remove the "dark side" option. Your player character can (only) save the galaxy from the evil overlord ("light side" ending) because anything else would be morally reprehensible yadda yadda, BAD.
DA:I feels so bland to me because I think Bioware tried far too hard to a- implement their political views and b- not to offend anybody who shared these views.
Case in point: Homosexuality. Bioware has taken a lot of flak from certain circles for this, but they have stood strong against this wind. (My personal opinion on this matter is more complex than a simple "I approve", but that's for another thread.)
Opposing case in point: Leliana's 'vision' scene that got severely 'defused' (some would say mutilated) because certain circles claimed that it felt too much like rape, and therefore had to be removed. Bioware flagged almost immediately. The inability to turn the Inquisition into an iron-fisted, oppressive force (e.g. in the context of "fight fire with fire"), or even the conspicuous absence of the iconic desire demons are further examples that I *think* show instances where politics influenced the game far more than they should have (obviously I cannot prove it since I wasn't in the meetings when this was decided...)
If we really have to morally inoculate players with games (a concept I thoroughly detest), I still think that giving them choices and making them feel the consequences is the far better alternative to waving the moral index finger at every opportunity and simply limiting them to the universally accepted path.
Inciting discussion, creating conflict > railroading players into "good" choices.
I think I mentioned this before, but DA:I reminds me a lot of what Mordin says about the Collectors in his outburst about them being dead. No culture, no discussion, no debate. It's quite fitting because in this context, DA:O and DA:KW could both be equated to previous stages in the Prothean culture (high civilisation, descent into a war for raw survival).
"No soul, replaced by tech."
Ascendra, DaemionMoadrin et Winged Silver aiment ceci
Inciting discussion > railroading players into "good" choices.
This is definitely a great goal. I agree that had Inquisition had a further developed branching ending (as far as good/evil), the game overall would have benefited. As far as social agendas....I don't particularly mind that they have them (my bias: partially because I tend to agree with a lot of them), but I would acknowledge that the handling of some of them was too ham handed. I think a lot of it would have gone over better if some material wasn't specifically showcased, and was just present (e.g. the way Cortez in ME3 said he had a husband, without making a big deal of the presence of his sexuality in game.)
And I suppose just in general - offering multiple options in endings invites revisits to the game. I get the impression that Inquisition was very much used for the purpose of setting up their next game, and Bioware has a certain vision for how they want the world to be for it. However, if that is the case (I couldn't say with any authority), it cost them with Inquisition. Hopefully they'll adjust their methods for future titles.
Excessive violence and crude sex scenes are far too commonplace in today's media and it has nothing to do with maturity. In fact it has everything to do with immaturity. If the greater population was more intelligent they wouldn't need that sort of thing to be drawn into a story. Unfortunately some people do. Hence why sex and violence sell so much when they do nothing overall for the story.
Sex scenes - in any form of media - are mature when they:
1) Render male nudity with as much attention and TLC as is devoted to naked girlz
and
2) Show us aspects of the characters and/or their relationship that could not be adequately portrayed outside of a sex scene.
Scenes that fail to evoke either of those qualities - which the vast majority of them do (fail) - exist primarily for T&A titillation of the audience.
@OP - Is the 'we' in the thread title meant to be a royal 'I'? Just curious.
As for what can be considered tasteful that vary from person to person, and I would also add upbringing and cultural background. So I don't think we can have a consensus on that one either.
Well, we could say that killing Dragons does demonstrate cruelty towards animals. As for demons, well, we ourselves are in essence directly responsible for their current state given the role of spirits and the Fade.
Basically, I'm saying that you have no coherent argument. You've created some arbitrary boundary which separates sex and profanity up against violence. If gaming is simply meant to uphold some higher morality as you put it, giving players a potential hero complex or indulging in their darker emotions, which RPG's typically do, your argument rather should be "no violence, ever". After all, these adults aren't mature to understand what it is they're engaging in.
We could if they were not deemed as dangerous threats to humanity. And while not all spirits are demons, most demonic foes need some repurposing when encountered.
And while some may not understand my objections, as well as others of a like opinion, it seems reasonable to me; not really understanding all the friction that comes with it. I like restraint on all of it; will likely pass on entertainment that doesn't place restrictions on themselves, and do not see this so-called boundary I seem to have crossed. In DAI, I avoid romances that are objectionable to myself, avoid using companions that seem profane, and as mentioned, lower the settings. This seems equitable to me.
All this "morality in games" doesn't mean anything, because they're video games. What I hate most is when people try to tack on moral, social, political, etc. issues to virtual entertainment. It doesn't belong there.
It may matter a great deal because it is entertainment. The gladiator arenas, public executions, and other like forms of amusement from history are telling illustrations of such morale meandering, and while virtual entertainment is not reality, practiced behavior aids in real choices and consequences; hence the usage of it within flight schools, military training, etc.
It may matter a great deal because it is entertainment. The gladiator arenas, public executions, and other like forms of amusement from history are telling illustrations of such morale meandering, and while virtual entertainment is not reality, practiced behavior aids in real choices and consequences; hence the usage of it within flight schools, military training, etc.
Gladiators were pro athletes, most were free people with advertisement contracts. Hell, even some nobles (some of them women) participated in the games. It was rare for one to die btw.
Public executions usually were not the kind of spectacle they are depicted as today. Often the crowds gathered to watch weren't there voluntarily, they were ordered to watch by their lord, who was making an example. Hence, they didn't really cheer all that much.
I'm curious what other similiar forms of amusement you could name.
Playing Ace Attourney doesn't make me a lawyer, nor does it prepare me in any way for the ethics and morals of that profession. Same is true for any other virtual job.
Playing a character in an RPG... which is the very definition of roleplaying... doesn't mean I have to apply my personal morals to that character. A RPG allows me to be someone else, to do things I wouldn't do in real life. It's a fantasy and whatever I do in it has no effect on reality.
Let's take this a step further. There are tons of games where you play as a thief, assassin, bank robber, con artist, getaway driver or commit felonies like vehicular homicide. Is everyone who plays such a game a morally reprehensible individual? What about games that allow you to cheat on your character's partner? Does playing such a game make you an unfaithful husband/wife?
Your argument is complete nonsense and falls flat, especially in a gaming forum.
* Actually, I decline to play many such characters, esp in a m/p setting. Not only are many of the settings disagreeable, but such titles also seem to be filled with nudity, profanity, etc. Prefer other games, films, books, etc.
* Being immersed into such settings does not have to corrupt, but it does occur. The language can become a part of the Player's vocabulary, or becomes more frequent. Virtual sexual content and violence can lead some to non-virtual content, and may direct some towards more aberrant behavior. Such examples appear to be seen at certain gaming Cons, events, etc; complaints should be available if one is interested. Seems rather relevant....
I recommend the Drakensang games for being really excellent and "super nerdy" CRPG's! They are freakin' fantastic
They derive from the german "variant" of DnD which is calledTDE - The Dark Eye(<<Link!) (or DSA in german). This system gives you a good sense of precise controll over what you are doing and is a very solid and comprehensive RPG system! I would even go this far to say that the PnP version is more complex, more comprehensive and above all has more lore than the american DnD system. But the VideoGames are perfectly consumer friendly ...
(Please do not confuse the SP-duology of Drakensang with the MMORPG spin-off !!! The SP games is where it's at )
Yes i agree, i should be flogged those were off the top of my head that i really loved, there are many more i loved and enjoyed, that said how i forgot Drakensang i have no idea it is a great series.
Just a reminder to the haters that are trolling this thread. Taken from this link
[snip] while virtual entertainment is not reality, practiced behavior aids in real choices and consequences; hence the usage of it within flight schools, military training, etc. [snip]
This myth of "practiced behaviour" in video games carrying over into real-world violence has been brought forward on numerous occasions and it's proven surprisingly hard to stomp out despite numerous studies showing that there is no correlation between violence and games -- let alone a causal relationship (something which critics almost always fail to differentiate; correlation =/= causation!). Let me just add as an aside that wrapping real-world intentional, goal-oriented use of media (military training, flight schools) into a discussion about recreational media falls just short of demagogic.
[...] In the second study, videogame violence consumption is examined against youth violence rates in the previous 2 decades. Videogame consumption is associated with a decline in youth violence rates. Results suggest that societal consumption of media violence is not predictive of increased societal violence rates.
[...] Contrary to the claims that violent video games are linked to aggressive assaults and homicides, no evidence was found to suggest that this medium was positively related to real-world violence in the United States. Unexpectedly, many of the results were suggestive of a decrease in violent crime in response to violent video games. [...]
Boogielicious, DaemionMoadrin, Lee80 et 1 autre aiment ceci
It may matter a great deal because it is entertainment. The gladiator arenas, public executions, and other like forms of amusement from history are telling illustrations of such morale meandering, and while virtual entertainment is not reality, practiced behavior aids in real choices and consequences; hence the usage of it within flight schools, military training, etc.
i've seen star wars, never felt the urge to beat people with neon light tho. anyway...
maybe being amoral in game is another way of escapism? violence in games may be as well a way to channel aggression, not a cause for violence IRL. same goes with morality in RPGs.
games are software, true - but something as essential as NPC's/PC's amorality is not a bug to be fixed. games are the only example (i can think of) of artistic expression that is being censored, because i refuse to believe negative personality traits are not included due to time limit/laziness of devs/rain.
isn't limiting choice because of the demands of majority a form of discrimination?
or maybe it's the cause of widening target audience? in that case - thank the Maker for indies, they don't give a crap.
Boogielicious, Spellbound7 et DaemionMoadrin aiment ceci
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