50 réponses à ce sujet

[Urzon]

I'm kinda surprised people are so up in arms about finding out that the Chantry censored and edited history again. We already had an example of them doing so with Shartan, So it really shouldn't be much of a surprise that they did it to other notable events in history to help better ingrain themselves into society and gather more power for themselves
 
I thought a certain dialogue between Cassandra and Solas pertaining to organizations kinda hit the nail on the head...
 
Cassandra: I noticed, Solas, that you did not seem surprised by what I uncovered about the Seekers.
Solas: No? They are an organization.
Cassandra: You think organizations to be inherently corrupt?
Solas: Given enough time, yes. To survive, an organization must devote resources to maintaining itself. Those resources inevitably accumulate until the original purpose, however pure, is all but lost.
Cassandra: You make the Seekers sound like a mindless beast.
Solas: A beast, no matter how mindless, will die and give way to a successor. An organization is eternal. There are always corrupt men who hoard power for their own gain and there are always honorable men who hoard power to fight them.

 

Kingdoms, nations, organized religions, businesses, organizations like the Inquisition, etc. Given enough time, they all wind up the same way. 

[TheExtreamH]

I didn't know the Chantry dubbed Thedas Yugioh and Pokemon.


 

[Ashagar]

Its not like the chantry is the only organization that censored or tried to erase things from history just look at the Tevinter and the dwarves. In fact I'd suspect humans and elves learned the fine details of such things from the dwarves who are the ancient masters at such things.

[Luqer]

 

Destroying the institution wouldn't destroy the religion. Even if the central power is cut down, you'd still have chantries in every city and many villages.

I consider that a decent compromise. The main Chantry loses most of their political and military might but many people who are still with faith can still seek the comforting of their souls through the remaining local chantries who would be no more than religious figures advising people on how to be a good person.

 

 

I didn't know the Chantry dubbed Thedas Yugioh and Pokemon.

Next thing we know, Shartan was changed into Andraste's young teenage human sidekick with stupid hair that constantly keeps saying "Get Your Game On!". The new Canticle would then end with a depiction of Shartan being brutally killed and people dancing in joy over his death. XD

[Rekkampum]

Just make Leliana Divine without completing her personal quest. 

 

 

No one stops a hardened Leliana once she takes the Sunburst throne. As Morrigan said, the walls are lined with blood.

[King Cousland]

No one stops a hardened Leliana once she takes the Sunburst throne. As Morrigan said, the walls are lined with blood.

 

This is true, but I always assumed that the Chantry survived, it just became a much more dark and "worldly" organisation, at least internally. If you harden or inspire Leliana without completing her quest, splinter groups spring up to challenge her reforms and she makes no attempt to combat them, ripping the Chantry apart. 

[Unpleasant Implications]

I see it happening when Dragon Age finally pulls a final fantasy 13 in the last game.

Dragon Age doing ANYTHING like Final Fantasy XIII...

[leaguer of one]

Destroying the institution wouldn't destroy the religion. Even if the central power is cut down, you'd still have chantries in every city and many villages.

Yep, it would just make more zealots.

[JJDXB]

This is hardly uniquely chantry behaviour.  You've literally just reworded the statement "history is written by the victors" in a way that demonises one institution in particular.  There probably isn't a single institution in Thedas that isn't guilty of this.

[Luqer]

This is hardly uniquely chantry behaviour.  You've literally just reworded the statement "history is written by the victors" in a way that demonises one institution in particular.  There probably isn't a single institution in Thedas that isn't guilty of this.

But the Chantry is the most familiar and more interesting topic of discussion as it is by far, the most powerful organization in Thedas.

 

Its less interesting to talk about the corruption of the Tevinter Chantry or the Qun as most people in Thedas already envision those two factions as more or less, an evil empire. The Chantry is most often seen in positive light but that's mainly due to the Chantry being a lot better at hiding its corruption from the masses.

 

 

Dragon Age doing ANYTHING like Final Fantasy XIII...

Its not just FFXIII. Most FF games in the series have an anti-organized religion theme in its story. Many assume that FF is against religion but its actually against religious organizations. Often do they depict priest-like figures preaching to the masses about how to run their lives but are later depicted as being massive hypocrites who regularly breaks their own laws. For example, in FF10, the religious organization in this game bans the use of advanced technology claiming it to be a sin yet the higher ups residing in the capital city, where the main power base of the religious organization is situated in, use technology like mechs and guns all the time because its more convenient to them while proclaiming its for the "greater good".

 

Similarly, the Chantry in Dragon Age ban Blood Magic and constantly preach "Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him" yet not only do they use a form of blood magic to create the phylacteries, they also use the Circle to help win their wars and as a means to show off the Chantry's might.

 

In some cases in the FF games, the so called deities themselves turn out to be real but are in no way benevolent. Instead, they are often depicted as being very manipulative and have little value in the lives of mortals. I wouldn't be surprised if the Maker turned out to be something similar.

 

Now, that said, I do believe the Chantry isn't all bad. The Village Chantry in Lothering were among the most sympathetic depictions of the Chantry. Its evident that most local Chantries are much more concerned with helping people and giving advice compared to the main Chantry in Orlais in which its values have been horribly twisted due to political influence and power grabbing.

[SwobyJ]

The Chantry is the best for most of the people, even the downtrodden classes.

 

BUT THAT'S NOT SAYING MUCH FOR DRAGON AGE. And 'most of the people' is a very specific wording here. There's many ways and peoples that do not do as well under the Chantry as they could have otherwise.

 

The Chant is a specific message to gradually create a specific kind of society, even if its not as exactly totalitarian as the Qun. The Chant and the administers of its message are still open to corruption, as anything on Thedas is.

 

Whether we like it or not, it is the gist of Dragon Age: Inquisition that southern Thedas is better off with a working (to whatever degree) Chantry than it is if suddenly without a Chantry, just as DA2 forced the Kirkwall is Doomed message whether we like it or not, and just as the Warden must save Ferelden whether we like it or not, etc. There's always a certain story to tell.

We don't have to support the Chantry's workings or its people etc etc, but the Inquisitor can't be someone who'll just end the Chant. They can come close, but not quite. We can focus on the Chantry's faults and hinder them (even if its often indirectly and not maliciously), or we can go all the way to reform the Chantry and bolster them, or we can do somewhere in the middle. Regardless, the Chant is still important to many thousands, and not even an Inquisition can end that - especially with their own religious aspects (even if we can officially not be about religion, depending on choices).

 

Its okay though. Just as DAI slanders(-without-slandering) the Wardens, DA4 will probably take off the kiddie gloves and will slander the Chantry much more openly. Nothing in Thedas is immune to Bioware's writers exposing its faults and tearing it apart and maybe letting the player decide what to do about that. Thedas is, whether it knows it or not, a broken world, and it'll be redeemed in some way or another, and even if it requires great change and pain in the process. The Chantry's reforms are just one step.

[Fireheart]

Dragon Age doing ANYTHING like Final Fantasy XIII...

I mean the basic plot of FF13 is the characters have to kill their god/the Sun to preserve their own lives, and they decide to choose their own fates, instead of being slave to some god, etc.  I know I'm not the first who's thought the Maker might show up as a boss at one point in the future... It's just a fun, harmless prediction of mine, ever since the reveal of Solas and Flemeth. It's got me thinking future games will all be about killing gods, or working with them, all boiling down to that epic final battle...

[Ashagar]

Given that previous main characters tend to mess things up more and more I think the only way the maker will show up in a game instead of just being prophetically stated to be returning would be to play almighty janitor.  I mean he warden amongst other things accidently unleashed a horde of Harvesters into the deep roads which is undealt with, Hawke is a walking doom magnet and wither he was left in the fade or went to the northern wardens he/she's actions will likely bring about some sort of horrid event. I think the inquisitor is the first protagonist who didn't make things worse... yet.

[Unpleasant Implications]

Its not just FFXIII. Most FF games in the series have an anti-organized religion theme in its story. Many assume that FF is against religion but its actually against religious organizations. Often do they depict priest-like figures preaching to the masses about how to run their lives but are later depicted as being massive hypocrites who regularly breaks their own laws. For example, in FF10, the religious organization in this game bans the use of advanced technology claiming it to be a sin yet the higher ups residing in the capital city, where the main power base of the religious organization is situated in, use technology like mechs and guns all the time because its more convenient to them while proclaiming its for the "greater good".
.

That's just because the Japs think western religion and monotheism is weird and freaky, so they tend to portray it as evil and corrupt. It's foreign and strange to them, so it makes a good antagonist.

I mean the basic plot of FF13 is the characters have to kill their god/the Sun to preserve their own lives, and they decide to choose their own fates, instead of being slave to some god, etc. I know I'm not the first who's thought the Maker might show up as a boss at one point in the future... It's just a fun, harmless prediction of mine, ever since the reveal of Solas and Flemeth. It's got me thinking future games will all be about killing gods, or working with them, all boiling down to that epic final battle...

I was just taking a shot at FFXIII, which was garbage in every way except environment design.

[SwobyJ]

Given that previous main characters tend to mess things up more and more I think the only way the maker will show up in a game instead of just being prophetically stated to be returning would be to play almighty janitor.  I mean he warden amongst other things accidently unleashed a horde of Harvesters into the deep roads which is undealt with, Hawke is a walking doom magnet and wither he was left in the fade or went to the northern wardens he/she's actions will likely bring about some sort of horrid event. I think the inquisitor is the first protagonist who didn't make things worse... yet.

 

Warden wasn't a screwup. Hawke was. But we can understand him and be okay with that. But Warden did not make the world worse. Even his mistakes were 'just' mistakes, not disasters. And Hawke's mistakes are still things that we can consider as beyond his control at least.

 

Inquisitor will probably make the world demonstrably better no matter what. However, the degree of this may vary based on choices, and 'better' may be from certain and not every POVs, and we may have the next game temper the uplifting tone of the Inquisition/Inquisitor just to remind us that it's never 'that easy'.

[zambingo]

I think, hope at least, that Cassandra as Divine will help reform Chantry institutions. I find her desire for truth above all to be commendable. The Chantry is in dire need of a Lutheran Movement towards examination and truths, less on expansionism and power consolidation. My Quizzy devoted herself to open mindedness, uncertainy in regards to whatever the Maker could will and mercy. Here's hoping it rubbed off.

[Ashagar]

I really don't think a Lutheran style movement in thadas be good for elves or mages, would likely end up with a call for genocide of the elves and would likely end up making the chantry look tolerant in its treatment of mages. Perhaps a Fraticelli movement would serve better.

[o Ventus]

I see it happening when Dragon Age finally pulls a final fantasy 13 in the last game.

I've never played Final Fantasy 13, so I'm not sure what the reference is here. Is FF13 anti-religious in its themes?

[King Cousland]

I think, hope at least, that Cassandra as Divine will help reform Chantry institutions. I find her desire for truth above all to be commendable. The Chantry is in dire need of a Lutheran Movement towards examination and truths, less on expansionism and power consolidation. My Quizzy devoted herself to open mindedness, uncertainy in regards to whatever the Maker could will and mercy. Here's hoping it rubbed off.

 

It's probably best not to introduce real-world analogies (particularly regarding religion and politics) since they more often that not lead to real-world arguments. 

 

To address your comment though, there's no doubt in my mind that Cassandra is the best choice for Divine, retaining an essentially conservative core in Chantry teaching while expunging corruption and worldliness. The only nagging regret I have in endorsing her is that it feels that Leliana was "meant" to be Divine. Ever since the end of Origins when she told The Warden she'd be summoned to meet with Justinia, I thought, "She'll rise to the top of the tree in one of the sequels". It just feels like a satisfying conclusion to her character arc. 

[Unpleasant Implications]

I've never played Final Fantasy 13, so I'm not sure what the reference is here. Is FF13 anti-religious in its themes?

Like many Japanese games, God is evil, the Pope(arguably both) is the villain and the standard "Screw destiny, we choose our own fates!". Ironically, in the end, they followed his plans and did as he desired pretty much to the letter.

[zambingo]

Well said, both Ashagar and King Cousland.

Also I didn't mean to impose direct historical comparisons, the intended reference was for a challenge to the established order and an examination of the dogma.

[SwobyJ]

It's probably best not to introduce real-world analogies (particularly regarding religion and politics) since they more often that not lead to real-world arguments. 

 

To address your comment though, there's no doubt in my mind that Cassandra is the best choice for Divine, retaining an essentially conservative core in Chantry teaching while expunging corruption and worldliness. The only nagging regret I have in endorsing her is that it feels that Leliana was "meant" to be Divine. Ever since the end of Origins when she told The Warden she'd be summoned to meet with Justinia, I thought, "She'll rise to the top of the tree in one of the sequels". It just feels like a satisfying conclusion to her character arc. 

 

Way I've seen it is that Leliana is more for the longer term players (DAO), Cassandra is for the shorter term players (DA2), and Vivienne may be for the completely new players (DAI).

 

Not by any set rule, but just in terms of a possible reasoning of why these three are even choices. We have different contexts for each, for sure, depending on even what games we've played and haven't played.

 

Haven't finished the game myself but I'm trying for either Cassandra or Softened Leliana for my main playthrough. This won't be the case for potential future ones. If Vivienne was at least a little less sharp at the edges and didn't seem so lost in the world (its a layer of her I keep thinking is there), I might have supported her more, because a BIG incentive is having an actual Mage, albeit a tempered one, as Divine. I very much believe that people need to look up to a Mage that means well for them and is happy to walk down to their level, and that's why I'm happy with my Human Mage Inquisitor, and I think it sad that Andraste's possible Mage-ness seemed to have been scrubbed from most histories.

[SwobyJ]

Like many Japanese games, God is evil, the Pope(arguably both) is the villain and the standard "Screw destiny, we choose our own fates!". Ironically, in the end, they followed his plans and did as he desired pretty much to the letter.

 

Actually no, not to the letter. It can be argued that for every one of the 3 FFXIII games, mortals altered things just enough, had just enough 'Chaos' in them, to not do exactly what the corrupt Order willed of them, and still made better versions of the 'future' each time. Always 'fighting fate' though, right til the end.

[Unpleasant Implications]

Actually no, not to the letter. It can be argued that for every one of the 3 FFXIII games, mortals altered things just enough, had just enough 'Chaos' in them, to not do exactly what the corrupt Order willed of them, and still made better versions of the 'future' each time. Always 'fighting fate' though, right til the end.

"Always fighting fate"

Fate: Kill me, become Ragnorök, destroy Cocoon

End Game: Orphan dead, Ragnorök crystallizes Cocoon

I said pretty much, and pretty much, everything went pretty much according to plan.

Maybe I'm misremembering, but it seems like they played right into his hands.

And to keep post on topic, I wouldn't liken e Chantry's censorship to 4kids which did so to avoid "adult" themes, but rather a historical revisionist, or a holocaust denier. Something like that.

[SwobyJ]

"Always fighting fate"

Fate: Kill me, become Ragnorök, destroy Cocoon

End Game: Orphan dead, Ragnorök crystallizes Cocoon

I said pretty much, and pretty much, everything went pretty much according to plan.

Maybe I'm misremembering, but it seems like they played right into his hands.

And to keep post on topic, I wouldn't liken e Chantry's censorship to 4kids which did so to avoid "adult" themes, but rather a historical revisionist, or a holocaust denier. Something like that.

 

"Pretty much to the letter" is weird anyway. To the letter means exact, while pretty much means not exact.

 

All FFXIII did was keep Fate as Fate, while having there being elements that always are apart from fate, like 'Chaos'.

 

I'll stop going off topic now too.