Questa discussione ha avuto 19 risposte

[madrar]

JoH introduced a whole new pile of insanity to incorporate into existing theory, and the huge skeletons we find scattered around the Frostbacks are one of those things I'm not sure what to do with yet.  This is a call for any and all ideas: the crazier the better.   

 

Things to consider:

 

The skeletal remains are substantially larger than Avvar Champions, but still smaller than the modern cyclopian giants we're familiar with.  Two eyes, no tusks.  The thematic connection between the Avvar and real-world Norse culture makes the leap to Jotun feel like a pretty comfortable fit, though that would open up a huge bag of worms, Pantheon-wise.  Who created them?  Who exterminated them?  And why?

 

 

The concentration of skeletons surrounding the Blood Stained Shrine in the swamp is certainly interesting.  The fact that these seem smaller than (possibly adult) skeletons found elsewhere could be significant, in combination with the eggs at the base of the shrine. Or the relative size could just be an arbitrary aesthetic balance decided by the art team.  =w=  It's unclear.

 

 

More interesting are the three preserved corpses we find nearby, apparently spilled from tombs we've seen elsewhere in Thedas:

 

Spoiler

 

Compounding the issue is what we find on the bodies:

 

 

A Warden crafting pattern, a griffon charm, and a sword with what seems to be a stylized griffon on the blade.

 

Spoiler

 

Taken together, this whole scene makes my head hurt.  If this is actually what it seems to be, how do we make it fit?   

 

I have no idea.  Bring on the crazy.

[thats1evildude]

I did joke a while ago that the large human enemies in the game were the descendants of the byproduct of a female giant in heat and a hapless human village. Said giant ate the women and "mated" with the stouter men, which resulted in half-giants. These looked more like men than Giants, so they joined human civilization. After a few hundred years, their bloodline has spread through Thedas.

[Kantr]

Maybe they are Qunari precursors?

[MarcoNeves]

Maybe they are Qunari precursors?

Possibly. There is a lot about the Kossiths' past we don't know about. We're they an experiment gone wrong? And are these gigantic skeletons related to that? Everything just leads to more questions.

[madrar]

I'm not a great source for comparative mythology, but some additional connections to consider:

 

In Norse mythology, one of the three roots of the world tree Yggdrasil holds the dragon Nidhogg in the realm of Niflheim, where it sustains itself by feeding on the corpses of murderers and oathbreakers.  Niflheim itself may be known as a realm of ice and cold, but its literal translation is the "Abode of Mist".   This is, essentially, what we find in the Coldsdotten swamp: a huge sunken area (strongly suggested to have been once underwater/underground) filled with mist and skeletal remains and overhung with what appear to be absolutely massive roots- possibly those of the impressively-sized cut elm directly to the north.  

 

Additionally, Nidhogg is the rival of the eagle who lives at the top of Yggdrasil (who in turn has a hawk on its brow) which seems a reasonable fit for the disregard the Jaws of Hakkon have for the Lady of the Skies.  

 

More of a stretch, the tenuous connection between the idea of the wyrd-weaving Nornir as fragments/aspects of Mythal offer a potential explanation for these structures as the top of a threaded needle:

 

Spoiler

 

Really weak, but possible.

 

Moving a bit closer to something solid, the three Norns are associated with the well Uroarbrunnr, and the idea of a well as representing the fade (or a fragment thereof) is familiar territory.  The "water" of Uroarbrunnr is considered so pure and holy by the Norse that it actually bleaches anything that it comes in contact with: an interesting point, given the white skin of the fade-touched beasts we encounter.  

 

 

As Cole describes the cause, they "touched something larger, left [themselves] pale."

 

On the other hand, why they turn black-and-white on aggro and what connection this pattern has to that of Hakkon and the Hakkonites themselves is not at all clear.  A connection to Hel as the referenced Coldsdotten [Cold's-Daughter]?  A metaphorical connection to Elgarnan's black-and-white world view?  

 

 

 

*baffled shrug*  Where's Helsdim when we need him?

[Cydh]

Re: all the grey warden things, this codex is what you're looking for.

 

I believe these half-giants are either Hurlock Alphas or a new race of darkspawns born from particularly strong Avvar broodmothers.

[Exaltation]

Kieran also says something about titans to a Dwarf Inquisitor.

[madrar]

Re: all the grey warden things, this codex is what you're looking for.

 

I believe these half-giants are either Hurlock Alphas or a new race of darkspawns born from particularly strong Avvar broodmothers.

 

Now that's crazy.  @w@   I like the way your mind works.  I don't think I can get on board, though, since Alphas have significant skeletal features (particularly in the skull/teeth) that would be noticeable if that's what we were looking at here.  Aside from the size, these seem like totally boring, normal human bones.  

 

A few things seem interesting to me in all this, and I wonder if there's a way to make it all fit:

 

First, the position of several of the skeletons suggests they were at least concurrent with Tevinter's occupation of the Frostbacks or later, since one of the larger skeletons is found on top of an abandoned Tevinter fortification.  This makes the Tale of Hryngnar's description of the ice-troll's "conjured glacier-strength" driving Tevinter from their lands take on a potentially interesting meaning.  The problem again is that these remains are pretty distinctly human- not at all like the one-eyed, tusked "ice troll" Hyrngnar or his brother giants we find to the north.  

 

As an aside: the Tale claims, twice, that Hryngnar is "dead to dreams as dwarves below us", suggesting that giants have no connection to the Fade and thus no possible source of magic as we know it.  Still, the tale goes on to describe Hryngnar "calling the winter winds" to trap and kill invading giants before they reached the Avvar coastline- which (if not seeing causality where it doesn't belong) suggests either that the troll's command over the cold is either inherent to his nature or (like darkspawn mages, in theory) he might be drawing on a different fade.  Either possibility dovetails suspiciously well with the idea of giants as figurative "Moon Men" in Helsdim's crazy-like-a-fox theories.  It's possible that is exactly what they are: ancient creations of Elgar'nan/Order- humanoid beings that possess tremendous life force (perhaps even immortality) but no emotion or will.   It's even more tempting to get on board with Helsdim considering how well "Snake-Kings of the Earth" describes the opposition, but the whole Tevinter-Moon Men alliance part is on very shaky ground as it applies here. 

 

Another possibility is that these are simply very, very large Avvar.  We've already seen that taking in spirits / spirit-aid seems to literally make humans larger than life in some cases: post-ritual Harofsen, Avvar champions, even the fade-touched beasts are much larger than normal.  In the Chant of Light, the Avvar Havard is also frequently referred to as a "giant", possibly due to a similar affect.   It's possible the two are even related- that the Tale of Hryngar isn't a literal description of a troll single-handedly ousting Tevinter forces, but instead his "glacier-strength" could be a metaphor for the Avvar taking in the spirit strength (and resulting size) they needed to do the job themselves. 

 

Ugh.   It feels like the game is trying hard to lead us somewhere obvious with all this, but I'm just not seeing it.   

[Cydh]

Regarding Helsdim's theories, I think you're aware of the amount of tinfoil this guy has above his head, but if you don't I suggest you start googling the sources mentioned in the codex:

 

Ser Yicke is a reference to RL David Icke

Ordo Templis Royalis is a reference to RL Ordo Templis Orientis

Whalen Vankin is a reference to RL John Whalen and Jonathan Vankin

Snake people and moon men are a reference to RL reptilians and selenites

I think we can keep going

 

I personally believe the Bioware writers put it in the game to make me feel paranoid - they've noticed I was posting the truth and they're on to me now. The first step is parody, but I will endure, I will find out the truth and expose them for the world to see, but shhh, not a word.

[theskymoves]

The out-sized skeleton models appear elsewhere, in the base game... here's one in the Emerald Graves (in the general vicinity of the Greater Mistral, NW-ish of the dragon). For scale, that's a female Lavellan Inquisitor:

[Kantr]

Maybe we'll find answers in World of Thedas Vol 2

[madrar]

Regarding Helsdim's theories, I think you're aware of the amount of tinfoil this guy has above his head, but if you don't I suggest you start googling the sources mentioned in the codex:

 

Ser Yicke is a reference to RL David Icke

Ordo Templis Royalis is a reference to RL Ordo Templis Orientis

Whalen Vankin is a reference to RL John Whalen and Jonathan Vankin

Snake people and moon men are a reference to RL reptilians and selenites

I think we can keep going

 

I personally believe the Bioware writers put it in the game to make me feel paranoid - they've noticed I was posting the truth and they're on to me now. The first step is parody, but I will endure, I will find out the truth and expose them for the world to see, but shhh, not a word.

 

Heh, yeah.  ^w^  Lord L'Rouche as well.

 

Conspiracy theory sets my teeth on edge in real life, but in a constructed world where everything likely is a tangled web of forgotten history, half-truths and intentional misdirects?   Helsdim's crazy like a fox.  Scrape away the eccentric veneer and some misguided conclusions, and his observations about the basin aren't wrong.   Signs of significant alteration to the landscape are everywhere, though he attributes some (like the river's altered path) to Tevinter when the more likely cause is far older.  

 

On that note, I think it might be time to start up a thread on the Basin's pre-Tevinter history.  The dropped hints and weird hunches feel intentional, but half the pieces are still missing and I need a sanity check on the other half.  =w=

[Cydh]

 

 

Conspiracy theory sets my teeth on edge in real life, but in a constructed world where everything likely is a tangled web of forgotten history, half-truths and intentional misdirects?

 

Oh my, you and me both.

 

Here's an extremely short excerpt from a rather long post I just wrote on /r/ThedasLore : "Minrathous was an Inside Job."

[madrar]

Oh my, you and me both.

 

Here's an extremely short excerpt from a rather long post I just wrote on /r/ThedasLore : "Minrathous was an Inside Job."

 

...I think you just broke my mind.  

 

This is a metric ****-ton of crazy, but I mean that in the best way possible.  Hessarian and  his "act of mercy" being potential blood magic has always been suspicious, but this...   I'm going to have to think about this.   

 

One thing, though: is that not Maferath, instead of Havard, in the triptych?  That was my assumption: the two great kings of the north and south, removing their crowns and kneeling before Andraste being the obvious metaphor for the church both rising above the political and surpassing it in importance. 

[madrar]

One more thing to make your brain hurt about Andraste's sacrifice, since we're way off topic anyway: have you noticed the distressing similarity between known replicas of the Sword of Mercy and the very, very ancient statuary we find in the Hissing Wastes? It's not exactly subtle.  

 

Spoiler

 

 

What is subtle is the difference between this sword one other- similar, but with a distinctly inverted hilt - that's presented as the Sword of Mercy in Ferelden statuary.

 

Spoiler

 

In one, the guard is pointing to the hilt.  In the other, the inverse.  Art team goof?  Possibly, but it's just as possibly intentional.   If so, what we have is two ancient swords, possibly foci.   Note the top sword's inversion of the triangle face that features prominently in Orlesian decor.

 

 

In alchemy, the upward-pointing triangle is the symbol for fire, the downward-pointing triangle water.  Mythal is strongly associated with water (the WoS, the ocean, the fade, etc), while fire is associated with the Sun, the False Sun and Sylaise.  The third piece of the triad is Order/Elgar'nan's original domain: void, cold, electricity, darkness, etc.   I can't really get into the weirdness of a fire-branded sword being possessed by what I thought was Fear (but may instead be Death) without some serious backtheory about how I think the DA universe works, so... I'm going to just leave that part alone for now.  

 

But there's something here, right?  I'm not entirely crazy?

[Cydh]

...I think you just broke my mind.  

 

This is a metric ****-ton of crazy, but I mean that in the best way possible.  Hessarian and  his "act of mercy" being potential blood magic has always been suspicious, but this...   I'm going to have to think about this.   

 

One thing, though: is that not Maferath, instead of Havard, in the triptych?  That was my assumption: the two great kings of the north and south, removing their crowns and kneeling before Andraste being the obvious metaphor for the church both rising above the political and surpassing it in importance. 

 

I'm sorry for going off-topic - I thought about a potential Havard/Maferath confusion, but then there's the four statues at the entrance of Valence. I'm pretty sure this is Havard (similar outfit as the statue carrying the Urn of Sacred Ashes), and Maferath is the one facepalming and carrying his helm. But of course I can definitely be wrong as hell. Fereldan representations of Maferath (including parodies) give him a fantastic beard, and so does his spirit during the trial at the Temple of Sacred Ashes. This makes me think that the facepalming statue is actually Shartan, not Maferath.

 

But then again, previews of the World of Thedas vol 2 put him along with Havard and Hessarian without a beard, so I'm confused.

 

Spoiler

 

The inverted Hilt is probably a goof, but definitely not an artistic goof by Bioware since the picture of Hessarian also makes the same mistake.

Again I have nothing to add, really. I'm not completely on point on the whole Flemandraste thing.

[madrar]

I'm sorry for going off-topic - I thought about a potential Havard/Maferath confusion, but then there's the four statues at the entrance of Valence. I'm pretty sure this is Havard (similar outfit as the statue carrying the Urn of Sacred Ashes), and Maferath is the one facepalming and carrying his helm. But of course I can definitely be wrong as hell. Fereldan representations of Maferath (including parodies) give him a fantastic beard, and so does his spirit during the trial at the Temple of Sacred Ashes. This makes me think that the facepalming statue is actually Shartan, not Maferath.

 

But then again, previews of the World of Thedas vol 2 put him along with Havard and Hessarian without a beard, so I'm confused.

 

Yeah, there's definitely an odd disconnect between their representation in statuary and the tapestries.  Of the three, Hessarian seems like the only consistent figure.  Still, I suspect "Havard" is depicted bald and clean shaven because it was the easiest way to make the scene ambiguous and set off massive theory debate.  *shakes a fist at the writers*   Not many would read the figure as Shartan/Solas otherwise, orb or no.

 

Back to the original topic: I think I'm going to scratch out the possibility that the skeletons could be spirit-charged Avvar.  I overlooked the fact that we find some of the preserved remains spilling out of coffins, which seems like a pretty significant "Not Avvar" hint.   ...though given the Warden-ish artifacts found on those particular corpses, maybe they were outsider allies given burial rites in accordance with their own culture.  Members of Ser Kiersten's forces, bolstered by Avvar spirit-magic, that didn't survive the darkspawn skirmish?   ...crap, that kind of makes sense.  But still, that coffin style is... I mean, the timeline doesn't...

 

*shakes herself*  Christ.  The more I think about this, the less sense it makes.  There's an obvious explanation here, but I'm not seeing it.  

 

Complicating the whole thing, we know from one of the Tevinter codices that the priests of Razikale had a sacrificial population with them: a reasonable explanation for the prison area we find in the swamp, since the nearby Blood Stained Shrine is clearly Tevene.  The bones there aren't as obviously oversized as others we find in the zone, but are still slightly larger than those of a normal human.  We also have an earlier entry suggesting the one-eyed cyclopian variant is far more common in the north and that Tevinter might have been breeding giants, though the whole codex is speculation.  Even if we assume giants offer a decent blood magic punch (which isn't at all certain, given how uninterested Tevinter seems in sacrificing other non-sentient creatures) I'm hard pressed to think of a reason the priests would bother to entomb a handful of them in elaborately carved caskets.

 

...ugh. 

[Uccio]

I did joke a while ago that the large human enemies in the game were the descendants of the byproduct of a female giant in heat and a hapless human village. Said giant ate the women and "mated" with the stouter men, which resulted in half-giants. These looked more like men than Giants, so they joined human civilization. After a few hundred years, their bloodline has spread through Thedas.

 

They are just part of the Awesome Aspect. You know, the bigger the better. Screw the lore getting in the way of Awesome gameplay. Like giant dwarfs.

 

I mean, really Bio? Giant dwarfs???

[Robert Cousland]

Bump.

[myahele]

A lot has changed when the Veil was erected.

 

Perhaps Humans originally were much much taller than they are now. This was also speculated when looking at Tevinter sarcophagus and doorways to look much larger than modern human. 

 

That potentially, Corypheus and Architect's large forms aren't due to their mutation, but is actually how tall they naturally were.