1428 réponses à ce sujet

[SurfaceBeneath]

Graunt wrote...
Completely and utterly clueless at what is even being discussed.  NO ONE CARES THAT YOU CAN USE WARP FOUR TIMES AND THEN SINGULARITY, no one said an Adept did not have any tools to strip away defenses.  You seem to think wasting ten seconds just to setup 2-3 enemies in CC is some big payoff when you could simply just kill them with a Soldier, Sentinel or Infiltrator in the same amount of time.  How often are enemies clustered up to where you're going to hit more than three at a time ever?  VERY RARELY.  

It's mostly a game of strip, strip, strip single target and that's why the Adept is completely devoid of that necessary ingredient, you know...fun?  The class is at a severe handicap compared to every other class in the game (well ok, it's still better than a Vanguard on Insanity I suppose...) at the higher difficulties.  A Soldier or Infiltrator don't even have to use a bunch of abilities to remove defense to actually DO anything to their targets.  And it really does seem like you have not actually played the class on Insanity, despite what you say.  There are too many instances in which enemies are crouching behind cover and your Warp either misses due to them crouching right after a cast or you go through the long and boring process of casting it, waiting for them to crouch and then come back up, repeat ad nauseum.  But I mean if you think having a super small advantage against Husk rushes somehow makes up for it...yeah...

The game was clearly designed to be "balanced" when playing on normal, but even then it's not because it's so glaring how the other classes have such a huge advantage in the higher difficulties by default.

I AM ANGRY BECAUSE I SUCK AT THE GAME RAAWRAGGHAAGH!!!!

Hey guess what? Soldiers have to "strip" defenses too. And you know how they do that? Their guns. Their guns which don't actually inherently do any more damage than an adepts. Soldiers (and other combat classes) no longer get the huge passive bonuses which allow them to use guns 10 times better than the tech/biotic based ones. This is -especially- true once you pick up your bonus weapon skill midway through the game AND choose Warp Ammo (or another bonus ammo talent, though Warp Ammo is the best). At that point, an Adepts ability to shoot something is Just As Good as a soldier's, only they trade bullet time and concussive shot for situational CC (Calling Shockwave and Singularity anything other than incredible is just retarded) and warp.

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 03 février 2010 - 01:49 .

[NineInchNall]

Right. The Adept is now just as boring as the Soldier. That's the primary irritation being expressed.  The justifications for this are what are being discussed (elementary decision theory, etc.).

Now stop being a jerk and saying that people just suck at the game.

Yeesh.

Modifié par NineInchNall, 03 février 2010 - 01:58 .

[SonsofNorthWind]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...


I AM ANGRY BECAUSE I SUCK AT THE GAME RAAWRAGGHAAGH!!!!

Hey guess what? Soldiers have to "strip" defenses too. And you know how they do that? Their guns. Their guns which don't actually inherently do any more damage than an adepts. Soldiers (and other combat classes) no longer get the huge passive bonuses which allow them to use guns 10 times better than the tech/biotic based ones. This is -especially- true once you pick up your bonus weapon skill midway through the game AND choose Warp Ammo (or another bonus ammo talent, though Warp Ammo is the best). At that point, an Adepts ability to shoot something is Just As Good as a soldier's, only they trade bullet time and concussive shot for situational CC (Calling Shockwave and Singularity anything other than incredible is just retarded) and warp.

Here's where you're verifiably wrong.

The combat classes - Soldier, Vanguard, and Infiltrator - get access to significantly better versions of weapons, most notably the deadly Widow rifle available to the Infiltrator and Soldier.  Soldiers and Infiltrators also get time dilation effects making headshots all the easier, adding significant bonus damage.  They also do get damage bonuses, 15% or so, which mean more in a game with fewer ways to stack bonuses than in ME1.   And Infiltrators get a massive 70% damage bonus through Assassin cloak.

Here's my opinion.  Calling biotic CC anything other than cosmetic on Insanity is foolish. 

Modifié par SonsofNorthWind, 03 février 2010 - 02:03 .

[gr00grams]

This thread should be more on the insanity difficulty, than about biotics.



I can say, now that I have done insanity, that my biotic(adept) was still the major, heavy hitter.



That said however, I had to use skills/squadmates with the perfect compliments.

Like Overload, disruptor, etc.



Warp decimates armor, singularity is just pure awesomeness.



The real issue, is regardless of class, even biotic, you are extremely pigeon holed.

Like with my adept, I was relegated to crowd control, armor removal, singularity/warp combos, etc.

I had to fill my role only attacking where my strengths were.



It seemed fine.

Now, with tech based classes, I am pretty much forced to be the 'shield removal' guy, etc. I am still relying on my 'tank' classes etc to deal damage, and my biotic to fill my former roles.



Basically, you can't just steam roll everything in insanity, and each class must play there role, and cannot just overpower areas they don't excel in.



I think really, it's quite good.

If my biotics just worked on everything all the time, it would significantly decrease any challenge. Reason is simple, when biotic attacks work, they are easily some of the most powerful attacks possible.



Those saying it doesn't pace with infiltrator, sentinel etc, it's just basically those classes strengths (aside sentinel, he's survival) are in steamrolling, therefore play doesn't change that much.



Having done it now, I really think a lot of this is just wrong, in that each class must play exactly on it's strengths in insanity is all. You simply cannot steamroll like lower difficulties.

[Curry Noodles]

People are all arguing different stuff, at this point it's pretty clear neither side is presenting a coherent argument. I will say (for anyone who missed it) that singularity has a second effect that will paralyze enemies who have shields/armor/barriers, but it only does it for 7 seconds or so. It works on almost everything, just not super heavy enemies like geth prime or heavy mechs...Thresher maw...etc...



I'm more annoyed that throw and shockwave, which are so cool , end up being so useless on anything but normal. Lift's not amazing, but I still found uses for it on insanity.

[skarlson]

This thread can be summed up as follows:



Anti-adepts say, "Most of our powers are useless vs anyone who has any kind of shielding so we are relegated to warp which cannot be spammed due to the gcd unless we want to use guns in which case we would play another class. This is especially true on harder difficulties."



Pro-adepts say, "Adept powers are not useless because you can cc on anyone who is not shielded and warp can tear stuff up. If you want god mode try playing on casual."



I propose guns be added to the gcd between shots and any gun besides the hand cannon become useless until enemy shields are down. Since pro-adepts are fine with this mechanic while playing adepts it only makes sense they won't have issues with this mechanic being added to more gun focused classes. Since anti-adepts don't like being told learn2play they should be happy with everyone else becoming just like themselves. Everyone wins!

[NineInchNall]

Gr00grams, you yourself mention the primary issue: your adept is railroaded into using Warp & Singularity all the time.  All the time.  ALL THE TIME.  To use the meme, "Warp & Singularity - FINAL DESTINATION."

This is due to the interaction of four things:

• Global cooldown - your choices are always the same.
• Power function overlap - why have two abilities that perform the same function (Singularity and Lift) and affect the same set of enemies?
• Enemy protections - certain powers are most effective against given protections.
• Cost to unlock powers - you have to invest points in one skill in order to put points in another.

The first and third combine to mean you'll always make the same choices.  If Rock, Paper, and Scissors are always simultaneously available to you, then you'll always choose Rock when the enemy has Scissors, and so on.

Add in the second and you'll never want to invest in the redundant skill.

Add in the fourth and your set of viable skill advancement schemes is limited to those that use the optimal skills those that require no previous investment.

Thus every Adept will max Warp, Singularity, Biotic Mastery, and a bonus talent.  The rest is just flavor.

Modifié par NineInchNall, 03 février 2010 - 02:28 .

[Dansayshi]

I just find myself spamming warp constantly as an adept. Especially on hardcore + as every enemy seems to be shielded.

[NineInchNall]

skarlson wrote...

This thread can be summed up as follows:

...

Everyone wins!

You, sir, win an internets.

[gr00grams]

@Nineinch,



Yes I realize, but that is more the difficulty than the class.



Like now with my engineer, I am basically pigeon holed into the shield removal class. I really have no functions outside of that either.



What I'm trying to say (thought I did...) is that this pigeon holing happens to all classes. It is just the result of making all the enemies beefcakes instead of tactical Einsteins.

[tonnactus]

Dansayshi wrote...

I just find myself spamming warp constantly as an adept. Especially on hardcore + as every enemy seems to be shielded.

Warp isnt ideal against shields.Take someone with overload with you or just take energy drain as bonus talent.Evolve this to the area variant.Problem solved.

[gr00grams]

Thus every Adept will max Warp, Singularity, Biotic Mastery, and a bonus talent. The rest is just flavor.

I also totally agree with this.



I will also say, that pretty much every engineer will do likewise with skills like overload etc.



Again, that is a result of removing many skills etc as well, not just beefcake enemies.

Like what soldier isn't going to max adrenaline etc? same thing.

[Skemte]

skarlson wrote...

This thread can be summed up as follows:

Anti-adepts say, "Most of our powers are useless vs anyone who has any kind of shielding so we are relegated to warp which cannot be spammed due to the gcd unless we want to use guns in which case we would play another class. This is especially true on harder difficulties."

Pro-adepts say, "Adept powers are not useless because you can cc on anyone who is not shielded and warp can tear stuff up. If you want god mode try playing on casual."

I propose guns be added to the gcd between shots and any gun besides the hand cannon become useless until enemy shields are down. Since pro-adepts are fine with this mechanic while playing adepts it only makes sense they won't have issues with this mechanic being added to more gun focused classes. Since anti-adepts don't like being told learn2play they should be happy with everyone else becoming just like themselves. Everyone wins!

Except adepts can use guns, the smg and heavy pistol in the beginning is more then enough filler..  Add in warp ammo and assault rifles. And you got a match made in heaven..  Now there are going to be overpowered classes no matter how you slice it when dealing with difficulties of hardcore or insane, its a fact of life.. Accept it..    

[Skemte]

gr00grams wrote...

Thus every Adept will max Warp, Singularity, Biotic Mastery, and a bonus talent. The rest is just flavor.

I also totally agree with this.

I will also say, that pretty much every engineer will do likewise with skills like overload etc.

Again, that is a result of removing many skills etc as well, not just beefcake enemies.
Like what soldier isn't going to max adrenaline etc? same thing.

We can really argue this way with ANY class when looking upon power gaming strategies on what is the best and what isn't.. 

[Dansayshi]

tonnactus wrote...

Dansayshi wrote...

I just find myself spamming warp constantly as an adept. Especially on hardcore + as every enemy seems to be shielded.

Warp isnt ideal against shields.Take someone with overload with you or just take energy drain as bonus talent.Evolve this to the area variant.Problem solved.

I only have 8 buttons. Besides, I find it much more fun, and easier, to just play as a soldier / infiltrator, and just have miranda for overload and warp instead. Switch out my 3rd char for whatevers comin my way.

[NineInchNall]

gr00grams wrote...

@Nineinch,

Yes I realize, but that is more the difficulty than the class.

Like now with my engineer, I am basically pigeon holed into the shield removal class. I really have no functions outside of that either.

What I'm trying to say (thought I did...) is that this pigeon holing happens to all classes. It is just the result of making all the enemies beefcakes instead of tactical Einsteins.

Actually, it IS the class; i.e., power overlap and cost to unlock powers.  It is also the global cooldown.  It is also a function of the absolute negation, RPS-style, of biotic/tech abilities by Armor/Shields.

And yes, most of the classes are affected by this, because most of the things I mentioned are game-wide.

[gr00grams]

We can really argue this way with ANY class when looking upon power gaming strategies on what is the best and what isn't..

Thank you.

Finally someone understands.



All these posts in this thread... about adepts, it happens to them all.



Exactly. Thank you.

Insanity is the mode that enforces this style of play, where you cannot have 'lesser' choices is all.



It is really no surprise at all that this happens. The mode demands it.

[skarlson]

Skemte wrote...
Except adepts can use guns, the smg and heavy pistol in the beginning is more then enough filler..  Add in warp ammo and assault rifles. And you got a match made in heaven..  Now there are going to be overpowered classes no matter how you slice it when dealing with difficulties of hardcore or insane, its a fact of life.. Accept it..    

Irrelevant:

• Adepts are not a guns focused class with some powers; they are a powers focused class with some guns.
• These changes would affect everyone so everyone is happy. Next!

[AoiDreamer]

As a soldier I find myself shooting a gun all the time.



Personally I don't see what the complaint is, lots of monsters, yes on insanity, have more health than shielding. Like Krogans, the reason this is, is because weapons are more proficient the 50-100% extra damage to certain shielding eliminates said defense easily.



Pull/Throw/Warp/Singularity, is a way of pausing them then instead of getting killed. It's particularly effective against husks, krogans, mechs, geth hunters, and primes..



I don't know about you people, but I still do plenty of pull and throw even on insanity. Sure I use warp, but I don't have to. I'm not pigeon holed to do it, I can go through the entire game on insanity without using it once. (I don't know why you would, but you could.)

[gr00grams]

Actually, it IS the class; i.e., power overlap and cost to unlock powers. It is also the global cooldown. It is also a function of the absolute negation, RPS-style, of biotic/tech abilities by Armor/Shields.



And yes, most of the classes are affected by this, because most of the things I mentioned are game-wide.

This is exactly it though, lets look at it objectively;



Insanity is the pure power-gamer difficulty.

Knowing this, lets break down the skills;



Warp = highest damage skill. Combo's for even more damage with singularity, stops regen, massive damage to armor.



Throw = Useful in some scenarios, ammo conservation if enemies thrown off maps.



Singularity = Affects almost all enemies with a DoT, can CC, can combo with warp.



Lift = double effect of singularity, singularity has DoT, this does not, OMIT.



Shockwave = Cost to unlock, not as high damage as warp, does not stop regen, is a small damage CC attack, overal singularity wins for CC, warp for damage = OMIT.



Bastion/Nemeis = a passive must for any.



Extra skill = depends, but likely a very nice addition in a lacking area, i.e. Barrier for some defense.



Basically, look at it as min/max, because that is what insanity requires.

You don't get choice here, because the mode demands only the best skills.

The best skills are definitely warp and singularity.



It's just a mode for the min/max. There is no 'choice' in this mode. You use what works only.

[grumpymooselion]

Skemte wrote...

skarlson wrote...

This thread can be summed up as follows:

Anti-adepts
say, "Most of our powers are useless vs anyone who has any kind of
shielding so we are relegated to warp which cannot be spammed due to
the gcd unless we want to use guns in which case we would play another
class. This is especially true on harder difficulties."

Pro-adepts
say, "Adept powers are not useless because you can cc on anyone who is
not shielded and warp can tear stuff up. If you want god mode try
playing on casual."

I propose guns be added to the gcd between
shots and any gun besides the hand cannon become useless until enemy
shields are down. Since pro-adepts are fine with this mechanic while
playing adepts it only makes sense they won't have issues with this
mechanic being added to more gun focused classes. Since anti-adepts
don't like being told learn2play they should be happy with everyone
else becoming just like themselves. Everyone wins!

Except
adepts can use guns, the smg and heavy pistol in the beginning is more
then enough filler..  Add in warp ammo and assault rifles. And you got
a match made in heaven..  Now there are going to be overpowered classes
no matter how you slice it when dealing with difficulties of hardcore
or insane, its a fact of life.. Accept it..    

The SMG is considered the least useful gun. The pistol can at least be used
for something, but it's hardly ideal for all situations. Warp ammo may
be effective, but it's hardly the common pick for someone that picks an
Adept when the idea to play an Adept is firmly backed by a want to
concentrate on the Biotics where other classes concentrate more on the
gunplay.

Again, it's amazing the large portion of explanations of how to play an Adept on insanity encourage the player to play like a class other than the one they Chose.

Modifié par Janan Pacha, 03 février 2010 - 02:42 .

[NineInchNall]

Skemte wrote...
Except adepts can use guns, the smg and heavy pistol in the beginning is more then enough filler.. 

One of the stated design goals of ME2's combat and skill systems, according to Ms. Norman, was to eliminate just the sort of "non-Adept" or "non-Engineer" feel that certain people felt existed in the low levels of the first game.  Some of this seriously could be laid to rest with a "learn to play" response (e.g., poor skill investment) and some of it was a general dissatisfaction with the traditional RPG power growth and acquisition paradigm.

The primary complaint they wanted to address with Adepts was essentially this: "I only get to use my biotics once or twice in a fight on Eden Prime."

The way they decided to fix this was by making the cooldowns shorter and making them global.  This, however, significantly changes the way in which high level characters play and encourages ability spam.

A solution that would have accomplished the same goal (allowed players to use their skills more often per fight) would have been to leave everything the same as in ME1 and simply remove the requirement to have X points in Y skill before being able to put points into Z skill.  Consider: a level 1 ME1 Adept would have a free point in Warp and Throw, as well as points to put into multiple separate abilities.  Thus our Adept would be able to use maybe 4 or 5 abilities before having to wait for a cooldown - at level one!

...  Maybe I'll write up an "Anatomy of a Failed Design" article for this topic ...

[gr00grams]

Again, it's amazing the large portion of explanations of how to play an Adept on insanity encourage the player to play like a class other than the one they Chose.

It is not.

I think my adept is great on insanity.



The main thing, is you all must understand insanity is a mode designed around only what works best.



Sure, shockwave, pull, etc are cool and all, but they are simply not the most effective. Therefore, they are omitted on insanity.



It's really that easy.

Like the infiltrator, the soldier etc, all classes also experience this. They are ALL relegated to what works best only.



That is why the difficulty is 'insanity' and not normal.

It is to be expected.

[NineInchNall]

gr00grams wrote...

Basically, look at it as min/max, because that is what insanity requires.
You don't get choice here, because the mode demands only the best skills.
The best skills are definitely warp and singularity.

It's just a mode for the min/max. There is no 'choice' in this mode. You use what works only.

Uh, thank you for agreeing with me?

[AoiDreamer]

Janan Pacha wrote...

The SMG is considered the least useful gun. The pistol can at least be used
for something, but it's hardly ideal for all situations. Warp ammo may
be effective, but it's hardly the common pick for someone that picks an
Adept when the idea to play an Adept is firmly backed by a want to
concentrate on the Biotics where other classes concentrate more on the
gunplay.

Again, it's amazing the large portion of explanations of how to play an Adept on insanity encourage the player to play like a class other than the one they Chose.

I actually like the SMG the most. It has the best semi-ranged shield/barrier penetration, and the second SMG is more accurate than the regular assault rifle. Personally I don't understand how using a gun = acting like another class. Of course you're going to stink in ME2 if you never want to fire a gun. The engineer, the sentinel, all of them are going to stink if they never fire a gun.