1428 réponses à ce sujet

[skarlson]

Janan Pacha,



I feel for you. However, if you haven't noticed from the 37 or so pages worth of back and forth dialog I will let you in on a little secret. Telling one particular viewpoint that adepts are not fine is like having a discussion with a monkey; don't do it unless you enjoy having excrement tossed your way.

[gr00grams]

Uh, thank you for agreeing with me?

Sure.
But don't complain that it should change.

That is what this mode is for, so you having to follow that it requires only the best skills/setups/etc, is nto an inherent problem with the adept or biotic classes.

It is simply that not all skills are equal, and the lesser ones MUST be thrown out to have success on insanity.

Like Pull, Shockwave, etc are lesser moves. They do not perform as well as warp, singularity, etc, so do not use them on insanity. Even in normal, or whatever mode, singularity/warp still radically out performs them, they are just lesser skills. They are not as good. The only difference, is on normal, you can get away with using them. On insanity, you can't.

It's that simple.
Like try talking to my engineer, who gets the exact same treatment with skills like overload. I am forced to spam overload, and that is it's role.

However, I don't complain, because I CHOSE insanity, and this is how it should be.
I am relagated to only the areas my class is most effective.

Modifié par gr00grams, 03 février 2010 - 02:52 .

[Acero Azul]

i haven't had any problems as an adept in this game, in fact i think you can be successful with any of the classes pretty easily

[grumpymooselion]

AoiDreamer wrote...

Personally I don't understand how using a gun = acting like another class. Of course you're going to stink in ME2 if you never want to fire a gun. The engineer, the sentinel, all of them are going to stink if they never fire a gun.

This again. Go listen to the concept behind the Adept before you left words form, please.

gr00grams wrote...

It is not.
I think my adept is great on insanity.

You think having your powers cut off, with only one or two being entirely useful until an opponent is all but dead is great? You enjoy Warp spam, and, when Warp is ideal, switching to Reave spam? Good for you. Everyone else finds this boring.

Sure,
shockwave, pull, etc are cool and all, but they are simply not the most
effective. Therefore, they are omitted on insanity.

Cool is the point. And it's not that they are not "most effective" it's that they aren't effective at all until defensive are stripped, at which point, as has been said, a thing is all but dead.

It's really that easy.
Like the infiltrator, the soldier etc, all classes also experience this. They are ALL relegated to what works best only.

A soldier doesn't experience their main mode of play being locked out, niether does an infiltrator.

That is why the difficulty is 'insanity' and not normal.
It is to be expected.

Regardless of what you may think, opponents with defenses exist on all difficulty levels, not just on Insanity. The difference is how common they are, but even on Casual you'll find enemies with defenses and those specific enemies that are just plain immune.

[Marhkus]

I think biotics are cool and not useless.

[grumpymooselion]

skarlson wrote...

Janan Pacha,

I feel for you. However, if you haven't noticed from the 37 or so pages worth of back and forth dialog I will let you in on a little secret. Telling one particular viewpoint that adepts are not fine is like having a discussion with a monkey; don't do it unless you enjoy having excrement tossed your way.

I'd be put off by that idea if this thread and other threads weren't filled with people that think exactly the same thing, or variations of, as I.

gr00grams wrote...

Uh, thank you for agreeing with me?

Sure.
But don't complain that it should change.

He wasn't complaining. He was pointing out a legitimate flaw. Calling it a complaint doesn't lessen its validity.

That
is what this mode is for, so you having to follow that it requires only
the best skills/setups/etc, is nto an inherent problem with the adept
or biotic classes.

This mode has no rulebook prior to clicking on it that asserts any of the things you claim.

It is simply that not all skills are equal, and the lesser ones MUST be thrown out to have success on insanity.

Those skills that you throw out don't work on anything with defenses regardless of difficulty.

Like
Pull, Shockwave, etc are lesser moves. They do not perform as well as
warp, singularity, etc, so do not use them on insanity.

Even singularity takes a performance hit against targets with defenses. They aren't lesser moves in any way shape or form. It's one, silly, and bad decision that prevents them from doing what they are supposed to do. It has nothing to do with them being lesser - it has to do with their functionality being taken away entirely against foes with defenses. This not only locks out some of your base powers, it also dictates what your bonus power decisions are going to be because something like Reave or Warp Ammo is always going to function better than something like Slam.

Like
try talking to my engineer, who gets the exact same treatment with
skills like overload. I am forced to spam overload, and that is it's
role.

An Engineer is able to play like an Engineer. An Adept is not able to do so. That's the difference.

[NineInchNall]

gr00grams wrote...

Sure.
But don't complain that it should change.

And here's where you go off the rails.

The problem is not that Insanity requires min-maxing.  I get that.  I love that.  Hell, I've been called a munchkin powergamer more often than I can count.

The problem is that the action on Insanity is stale.  The problem could easily have been avoided.

[gr00grams]

@Janan,



I understand. It's not that I 'enjoy' per-say, it's just... here is a very old quote;



"It is what it is."



I cannot really say it any better.

Like warp/singularity spam might be boring, etc, but that is irrelevant.

Come end of the day, it's the most effective. Everything else, is not as effective, therefore it is omitted.



I did not design the system, but that is very apparent.

I think lift, pull, shockwave etc are cool, but yeah they just don't cut it on insanity.



Many classes have many skills locked out all the time. All the time actually.

The only thing that is always effective are guns, but guns are also the main damage point of the game.

I understand also, that adepts want to be mages, and not use guns, but it doesn't change this fact.

Guns were also the most effective means in ME1.



A soldier experiences other penalties. However, an adept is neither locked out of their main mode;



Here's the kicker: Warp and Singularity is the main mode of play. They are by and far the best adept skills. That is the main mode of play. Sorry.



They are just as locked into only skills that work as well.

They also ony have guns as a means of any damage to begin with.



I understand though, everyone wants variety, it's the spice of life etc, but that is what normal difficulty is for. Insanity is just for pure min/max only, and all weak and lesser abilities and talens must be omitted.

[gr00grams]

The problem is that the action on Insanity is stale. The problem could easily have been avoided.

Can't say I disagree with you at all, but this is how it was given unfortunately.
BioWare has done this before (Jade Master mode on Jade Empire anyone?).

Like I said, they just made them beefcakes, not tactical Einsteins.
So yes, for all classes it will degrade into very few select skill spams.

It is what it is, but it's not just adepts that face this.
I would say really, if it bothers you that much, just play on less than hardcore difficulties where you can pretty much throw points wherever you like etc and just have FUN.

Modifié par gr00grams, 03 février 2010 - 03:05 .

[newcomplex]

Janan Pacha wrote...

AoiDreamer wrote...

Personally I don't understand how using a gun = acting like another class. Of course you're going to stink in ME2 if you never want to fire a gun. The engineer, the sentinel, all of them are going to stink if they never fire a gun.

This again. Go listen to the concept behind the Adept before you left words form, please.

gr00grams wrote...

It is not.
I think my adept is great on insanity.

You think having your powers cut off, with only one or two being entirely useful until an opponent is all but dead is great? You enjoy Warp spam, and, when Warp is ideal, switching to Reave spam? Good for you. Everyone else finds this boring.

Sure,
shockwave, pull, etc are cool and all, but they are simply not the most
effective. Therefore, they are omitted on insanity.

Cool is the point. And it's not that they are not "most effective" it's that they aren't effective at all until defensive are stripped, at which point, as has been said, a thing is all but dead.

It's really that easy.
Like the infiltrator, the soldier etc, all classes also experience this. They are ALL relegated to what works best only.

A soldier doesn't experience their main mode of play being locked out, niether does an infiltrator.

That is why the difficulty is 'insanity' and not normal.
It is to be expected.

Regardless of what you may think, opponents with defenses exist on all difficulty levels, not just on Insanity. The difference is how common they are, but even on Casual you'll find enemies with defenses and those specific enemies that are just plain immune.

No.   Not really.   

I also think the adept is fine.     Pull and throw are suppose to be situational.   

Also, a soldier has two skills, adrenaline rush and concussive shot, and only one of those do damage.    

Modifié par newcomplex, 03 février 2010 - 03:07 .

[NineInchNall]

gr00grams wrote...

The problem is that the action on Insanity is stale. The problem could easily have been avoided.

Can't say I disagree with you at all, but this is how it was given unfortunately.
BioWare has done this before (Jade Master mode on Jade Empire anyone?).

Like I said, they just made them beefcakes, not tactical Einsteins.
So yes, for all classes it will degrade into very few select skill spams.

It is what it is, but it's not just adepts that face this.
I would say really, if it bothers you that much, just play on less than hardcore difficulties where you can pretty much throw points wherever you like etc and just have FUN.

Exactly.  I'm describing the game as it is.  It is unfortunate that they made the game this way, and that's what we've all been pointing out.

What's baffling me is why you've been telling people not to say that it's unfortunate.

[CatatonicMan]

newcomplex wrote...

I also think the adept is fine.     Pull and throw are suppose to be situational. 

Umm...

Do you realize that most of the complaints here center around the fact that there is really never a situation where pull/throw/shockwave are actually useful? They are pretty much always outclassed by warp/singularity.

In ME1, some powers were certainly better than others, but the individual cooldown on each power meant that even the lowliest power was useful (even if only as filler until the other powers regenerated). With the global cooldown where only one power can be used at a time, there is absolutely no reason to use the other powers.

Add to this the fact that most of the powers do nothing until the enemy is 80% dead, and it should be obvious that this system is stupidly broken.

Modifié par CatatonicMan, 03 février 2010 - 03:16 .

[AoiDreamer]

Janan Pacha wrote...

There's a whole topic for optimal class specs. And you know what I see on there? Hoffburger cloaking and shooting, cloaking and shooting, cloaking and shooting. How is that in any way different than using warp often?

Sounds pretty damn boring to me, personally. Yet noone's complaining about that. Or how about the soldiers, adrenaline rushing and sniping, adrenaline rushing and sniping over and over. Every class has a skill that they're going to abuse on the hardest level difficulty.

Soldier -Abuse AdrenalineRush + Sniper
Infiltrator - Abuse Cloak + Sniper
Engineer - Abuse Combat Drone
Vanguard - Abuse Charge.
Adept - Abuse Warp+Singularity
Sentinel - Abuse Warp+Overload.

Honestly, what's the deal? Lets face it, the only real reason the Infiltrator or Soldier uses anything else but the sniper rifle is because it has limited ammo, and the other classes' spam button doesn't.

If you don't want to abuse warp, don't. Heavy throw still does moderate shield damage and you can recast it by the time the first bolt lands home.

[grumpymooselion]

gr00grams wrote...

@Janan,

I understand. It's not that I 'enjoy' per-say, it's just... here is a very old quote;

"It is what it is."

Circular reasoning.

I cannot really say it any better.
Like warp/singularity spam might be boring, etc, but that is irrelevant.
Come end of the day, it's the most effective. Everything else, is not as effective, therefore it is omitted.

And it's still wrong.

I did not design the system, but that is very apparent.
I think lift, pull, shockwave etc are cool, but yeah they just don't cut it on insanity.

No they don't. And it's wrong. Hence this thread.

Many classes have many skills locked out all the time. All the time actually.
The only thing that is always effective are guns, but guns are also the main damage point of the game.
I understand also, that adepts want to be mages, and not use guns, but it doesn't change this fact.
Guns were also the most effective means in ME1.

They aren't the main point of the game, otherwise the Adept wouldn't have been advertised as never having to fire a shot.

A soldier experiences other penalties. However, an adept is neither locked out of their main mode;

Yes, an Adept is locked out of their main mode of play.

Here's the kicker: Warp and Singularity is the main mode of play. They are by and far the best adept skills. That is the main mode of play. Sorry.

Singularity takes a serious hit to its functionality against targets with defense that makes Warp or Reave or Warp Ammo superior choices (depending on the bonus you choose) without exception.

I understand though, everyone wants variety, it's the spice of life etc, but that is what normal difficulty is for. Insanity is just for pure min/max only, and all weak and lesser abilities and talens must be omitted.

Insanity mode is just fine, normal mode is too easy. Stop talking about it like people think Insanity should be easier and realize it for what it is - that a class should be able to function as the class it is on said difficulty mode.

[AoiDreamer]

CatatonicMan wrote...

newcomplex wrote...

I also think the adept is fine.     Pull and throw are suppose to be situational. 

Umm...

Do you realize that most of the complaints here center around the fact that there is really never a situation where pull/throw/shockwave are actually useful? They are pretty much always outclassed by warp/singularity.

In ME1, some powers were certainly better than others, but the individual cooldown on each power meant that even the lowliest power was useful (even if only as filler until the other powers regenerated). With the global cooldown where only one power can be used at a time, there is absolutely no reason to use the other powers.

Add to this the fact that most of the powers do nothing to until the enemy is 80% dead, and it should be obvious that this system is stupidly broken.

As I said before, lots of bad-guys still have plenty of life after armor, like krogans or mechs, or husks. Singularity I actually like less than Pull + underside throw to launch into space for insanity, though Singularity does work well on modes without many shields.

[Xivai]

gr00grams wrote...

Actually, it IS the class; i.e., power overlap and cost to unlock powers. It is also the global cooldown. It is also a function of the absolute negation, RPS-style, of biotic/tech abilities by Armor/Shields.

And yes, most of the classes are affected by this, because most of the things I mentioned are game-wide.

This is exactly it though, lets look at it objectively;

Insanity is the pure power-gamer difficulty.
Knowing this, lets break down the skills;

Warp = highest damage skill. Combo's for even more damage with singularity, stops regen, massive damage to armor.

Throw = Useful in some scenarios, ammo conservation if enemies thrown off maps.

Singularity = Affects almost all enemies with a DoT, can CC, can combo with warp.

Lift = double effect of singularity, singularity has DoT, this does not, OMIT.

Shockwave = Cost to unlock, not as high damage as warp, does not stop regen, is a small damage CC attack, overal singularity wins for CC, warp for damage = OMIT.

Bastion/Nemeis = a passive must for any.

Extra skill = depends, but likely a very nice addition in a lacking area, i.e. Barrier for some defense.

Basically, look at it as min/max, because that is what insanity requires.
You don't get choice here, because the mode demands only the best skills.
The best skills are definitely warp and singularity.

It's just a mode for the min/max. There is no 'choice' in this mode. You use what works only.

Your argument is self defeating. If this is a power gamer difficulty then why choose the Adept at all? It is consistently easier, faster, and more efficient to play as any other class than the Adept?

Why?

Well 90% of an enemies "health" is shields, barriers, and armor. All things that hinder the Adept. By the time he can use any of his neat o powers it is down to the neligible 10% health which any class can kill. Not to mention any other class can chew through layers of defenses faster than an Adept.

Soldiers can rip through any defence with the right weapon quite easily.

Sentinels can overload and then warp to destroy everything.

Infiltraitors have their nasty cloak bonus and sniper head shots of death.

Engineers can strip away shielding quite adeptly. Barriers are a minor problem, but in this case it can be over come. They can also control tech enemies very effeciently to draw fire aay from themselves to attack.

Vanguards can charge out of a battle and switch up the battlefield, and they can warp to assist with their shooting skills.

What can Adepts do? Their strength lies in that sweet 10% zone. But by the time it is there you can just shoot that enemy. Adepts have to struggle to over come shielding. Which is ironiclly one of the strongest defenses in the game.

If your playing a power gamer you would be insane to play as an Adept. Any other class can power game better than an Adept can. At it's very core every base class should be capable of standing on their own. A bonus skill is a cherry on top. The Adept is the only one out of the box ill equiped to do this. It isn't so much a cherry on top as it is a life sustaining ration.

So if Insanity is a pure power game mode, then no sane power gamer would play as an Adept on Insanity. Using your logic. So then shouldn't adept be removed from the game or balanced for this difficulty level? At the moment it's powers can't work until the fight is right near the end. Also we had a Developer test Insanity. So don't go and say insanity is just "extra and not how the game is meant to be played". They wouldn't have coded it in and wasted all that time and money to add it if it wasn't taken seriously. It costs a lot of ****ing money to add in extra difficulty levels. If the game was made to play a certain way you wouldn't be given options on how to change it.

Not to mention the Warp/Singularity combo being the only damn skill worth a crap in the game it isn't even all that good.

This is about the Adept being unsuitable to Harcore/Insanity. The system works on all the other difficulty levels. Know why? Because it's fun throwing things around and doing all this coll stuff an Adept should do. No other class is hindered from being itself at the higher levels. They all play like they are supposed to. Cloak doesn't just stop working on Insanity. Aiming doesn't just stop ect. The Adept currently can't do his job on Insanity, there is no way to get around this fact. Although to claim he is "still good and balanced" is hillarious.

Then your going to say "it isn't the adepts role to be a front line fighter" I would agree, except every other class seems to be. What is the Adept going to do? Support? He can't because of defenses, cant front line because of his dinky guns. Well he can, it's just obscenely hard to get an Adept through on Insanity. Go play as any other class and you will see how easy it is.

Insanity for Adept was hair tearing nightmare. Even with squads and, power combos if I made even the slightest mistake I was dead. Insanity as a soldier I just run in and shoot the crap out of everything in 2/3 the time it would take to warp spam everything and move on happy with life. Some giths as an Adept were going into the hour range of time. Those same fights as a soldier took me like 5 minutes. Occasionaly a mess up on my part and a reload.

This whole topic is contrary to what your saying. 36 pages with the majority of people stating Biotics are super nerfed and use impared. Are you telling me all 36 pages of posters fail at playing the game? Not ONE individual in there who is any good at all? It seems unlikely.

[Hoffburger]

AoiDreamer wrote...

Janan Pacha wrote...

There's a whole topic for optimal class specs. And you know what I see on there? Hoffburger cloaking and shooting, cloaking and shooting, cloaking and shooting. How is that in any way different than using warp often?

Sounds pretty damn boring to me, personally. Yet noone's complaining about that. Or how about the soldiers, adrenaline rushing and sniping, adrenaline rushing and sniping over and over. Every class has a skill that they're going to abuse on the hardest level difficulty.

Soldier -Abuse AdrenalineRush + Sniper
Infiltrator - Abuse Cloak + Sniper
Engineer - Abuse Combat Drone
Vanguard - Abuse Charge.
Adept - Abuse Warp+Singularity
Sentinel - Abuse Warp+Overload.

Honestly, what's the deal? Lets face it, the only real reason the Infiltrator or Soldier uses anything else but the sniper rifle is because it has limited ammo, and the other classes' spam button doesn't.

If you don't want to abuse warp, don't. Heavy throw still does moderate shield damage and you can recast it by the time the first bolt lands home.

Infiltrator was designed to cloak and shoot. Seems like they got it right if the most optimal way to play it on Insanity is to cloak and shoot with the sniper with a few Incinerates mixed in.

The Adept spams warp and sniper rifle/assault rifle.

I'll tell you what, if you go look at the class videos posted by Bioware and see an Infiltrator doing something other than cloaking and shooting and maybe using an Incinerate or two I will ban myself from the boards. If you watch the Adept video and see them spamming warp and shooting enemies with a sniper rifle/assault rifle I will ban myself from the boards.

In fact, if you see the Adept using Warp AT ALL or firing more than 3-4 bullets, I will ban myself from the forums.

Good luck.

Modifié par Hoffburger, 03 février 2010 - 03:26 .

[gr00grams]

What's baffling me is why you've been telling people not to say that it's unfortunate

It is not unfortunate, because it makes the play on normal difficulties more in depth.

I cannot just steam roll everything with adept.

Adept powers are incredibly strong when they have full effect. If they had full effect all the time, I could simply Pull/Throw everything in the game with zero challenge.



That said, it also makes 'pure' characters rely on the team more. Like I had Garrus and Grunt with my adept almost always, or Zaeed etc, but never Samara, jack, etc as I needed the strengths I lacked.



The game, like it or not, was mostly balanced around normal. It's what the majority will play the game at. Insanity is only for the select few, and by CHOOSING insanity, you should accept the fact that it is in only the strong survive, and well, weak skills are simply not an option.



Like if I just want to play for pure fun, insanity is definitely not the difficulty to select.

On normal, shockwaves, pulls, lifts etc were immense fun.



@AoiDreamer;



Exactly.

[gr00grams]

@Xivai

What seems to be the largest problem with what your points, is that if allowed to just work on 'everything' the adept would be much, much too powerful.

The class design is godlike if there is nothing to prevent those powers. It has to have something that defeats it, as if unhindered the powers are basicaly a "win" button.

I would also like to add, that the only defenses my adept is not suitable for are shields.
Warp tears through armor.
Singularities DoT and warp together make armored/pure health enemies very easy.

Really the only trouble for adept is shields.

Modifié par gr00grams, 03 février 2010 - 03:27 .

[tonnactus]

Dansayshi wrote...


I only have 8 buttons. Besides, I find it much more fun, and easier, to just play as a soldier / infiltrator, and just have miranda for overload and warp instead. Switch out my 3rd char for whatevers comin my way.

So your problem is that you dont like to pause the game sometimes,or what?

[grumpymooselion]

gr00grams wrote...

You can't play the Game how you Want

Bioware wrote...

You can play the Game how you Want

Hm.

[Hoffburger]

gr00grams wrote...

@Xivai

What seems to be the largest problem with what your points, is that if allowed to just work on 'everything' the adept would be much, much too powerful.

The class design is godlike if there is nothing to prevent those powers. It has to have something that defeats it, as if unhindered the powers are basicaly a "win" button.

I just started my Adept modified Insanity run. I edited my .ini to allow biotics to be used on everything. I am personally limiting myself by not abusing CC on bosses, everything else is fair game.

Guess what? It's still harder than my Infiltrator. With global cooldown you can't just immediately CC or kill everyone. In fact it takes me about 10x longer to kill normal enemies with Shockwave, Throw, Singularity, or a combo like Pull/Throw than it does for me to instantly headshot kill them as an Infiltrator.

[AoiDreamer]

Hoffburger wrote...

Infiltrator was designed to cloak and shoot. Seems like they got it right if the most optimal way to play it on Insanity is to cloak and shoot with the sniper with a few Incinerates mixed in.

The Adept spams warp and sniper rifle/assault rifle.

I'll tell you what, if you go look at the class videos posted by Bioware and see an Infiltrator doing something other than cloaking and shooting and maybe using an Incinerate or two I will ban myself from the boards. If you watch the Adept video and see them spamming warp and shooting enemies with a sniper rifle/assault rifle I will ban myself from the boards.

In fact, if you see the Adept using Warp AT ALL or firing a single bullet, I will ban myself from the forums.

Good luck.

*Sigh*

To be fair, I never saw the infiltrator sit stealthed zeroing in for a headshot either, I saw them using stealth to flank with their smg's. I never saw the engineer hiding behind cover and respawning a drone a hundred times over. I never saw a soldier spamming AR and sniper rifles, and that still doesn't change the fact that, that each class has a crutch so to speak. I personally use pull a great deal on insanity, it helps pull guys out of cover, because contrary to popular belief, guys just don't give up after you break their defenses.

And yes, I understand that at the very wee hours at the end of the game, when you upgrade a certain character that you get like right before the suicide mission that you can pretty much dominate anything in the game, but just to follow your guide...

Spam incinerate.
Spam Cloak.
Where were all those incinerate using infiltrators in the videos....  Hmm?

[Endurance_117]

lol, Infiltrator is not easy on Insanty, just Adept is harder.



Sentinel > Solider > Vanguard > Infiltrator > Adept > Engineer

[gr00grams]

Insanity mode is just fine, normal mode is too easy. Stop talking about it like people think Insanity should be easier and realize it for what it is - that a class should be able to function as the class it is on said difficulty mode.

It does. It functions exactly as they designed it to.

It's not wrong that those skills are inferior. There are always inferior skills.



Like look at soldiers on insanity, without adrenaline. That is their saving grace. Any soldier will not attempt insanity without this skill.

Same for infiltrator with cloak etc, it's just they are the best moves.

Warp and singularity are definitely the best adept moves. I see really no difference.