1428 réponses à ce sujet

[Amioran]

kappukiino wrote...

I do wonder what people are complaining about, do u not realize how OP biotics would be if u would be able to lift off a shielded or armored person?

The game doesn't become easier only because instead of using Warp + Warp to kill an enemy you use instead Lift + Throw. The difference now is that you are forced to use only Warp/Reave instead of using all your biotics, only this.

The difficulty change is only a preconception, in reality nothing changes if bosses are not affected by disabling skills.

[Koralis]

RedShft wrote...

All I read from this thread is complaints because they actually have to rely on other squad members skills. This somehow degrades from gameplay because they actually have to coordinate attacks over several squad members.

 

Biotics existed not to kill, but to give you breathing room.  When a Krogan charged you, you could throw him back to stop the pain.   If you were being swarmed from all quarters, a Lift buys you some breathing room.

ME2 changed that.  Biotics are no longer defensive, they're offensive, and they're not arguably better at that job than any of the weapon or tech based skills at that job.  So why bother?

The only role that biotics still really serves its purpose is dealing with Husk swarms, etc, since they are neither armored nor shielded.

The fact that individuals in this thread can't comprehend that higher difficulty levels are supposed to be more challenging than spamming singularity, throw, pull or whatever else you feel like using is sad.

More challenging isn't the problem.  The problem is that they imposed an artificial, and absolute, limitation on WHEN you can use the powers that really makes them somewhat pointless.   If they'd increased resistance for armor and shields it should have made the game more challenging while still giving you the option of throwing a Lift.  Maybe you'd only disable 2 out of the 6 things that are coming at you, but that buys you time and reduces injury, which makes it still worthwhile even if you're still taking fire.

Modifié par Koralis, 03 février 2010 - 11:54 .

[tonnactus]

Hoffburger wrote...


But in this game the only ones missing out on the fun are Biotics (techs lose Cryo Blast and Ai Hacking, big deal). The thing that made ME1 so fun was all the ragdoll effects. You hardly get to see it in this game.

Ai-hacking was the talent i enjoyed the most in Mass Effect 1.

Modifié par tonnactus, 03 février 2010 - 12:34 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

I hate threads that go over 10 pages, because it's essentially a big cyclical argument with one side making a point, the other side making a counter point, and then the next person making the same point that the first poster made because they never bothered to read the 30+ pages beforehand and so on.

[For Humanity]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

I hate threads that go over 10 pages, because it's essentially a big cyclical argument with one side making a point, the other side making a counter point, and then the next person making the same point that the first poster made because they never bothered to read the 30+ pages beforehand and so on.

I agree long threads are a pain.... Come on next page.

[Evercrow]

yeah, this thread is so fun to read. And it gives me the sense of stability. I'm eager to see the 100th page of this in the future.

Btw, one could put together a nice guide on "how to play on insanity without boring your socks off" if digs through all that argument stuff.

And don't blame the dev for withdrawing arguments from this thread - imagine how it would be to prove the same thing to various ragers over and over through the 40 pages. Things like "fun" and "balance" for adepts are not exactly compatible. If you want fun, you go Coalesced.ini, if you want balance, well...The big probability you aren't reading this thread

[Amioran]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

I hate threads that go over 10 pages, because it's essentially a big cyclical argument with one side making a point, the other side making a counter point, and then the next person making the same point that the first poster made because they never bothered to read the 30+ pages beforehand and so on.

Lenghty or not, all threads have no point and no end, if this is what you search for, apart for ones asking for advices/solutions. No matter if a thread is long one page or 10, it will always be a cyclical argument without success or failure. The only point is the debate, nothing more. Repetition happens also on a one page long threads, because (as in life) usually people are more prone to talking than listening, ego is the predominant aspect of 90% of individuals.

[tonnactus]

The problem is not so hard.Against shielded enemies it doesnt make any sense to use warp,because its effective against barrier and armor.No wonder people have to spam it when they use the wrong skill for this type of defense.
The only solution against shielded enemies:Take someone with you that take out shields with overload/disruptor(Garrus,Miranda,Tali,Zaed) and/or use energy drain as bonus talent.
Then use the biotic you like.(and the best advise:Always evolve the area variant)
Problem solved.

Modifié par tonnactus, 03 février 2010 - 02:28 .

[vhatever]

Umm. Warp does decent against shield. Does something like 50% damage. Better than nothing. Just go back to playing little kiddie mode.

[tonnactus]

vhatever wrote...

Umm. Warp does decent against shield. Does something like 50% damage.

Should we really discuss if warp or overload are better against shields?Everyone who will should better play on lesser difficulties.

[Graunt]

gr00grams wrote...

We can really argue this way with ANY class when looking upon power gaming strategies on what is the best and what isn't..

Thank you.
Finally someone understands.

All these posts in this thread... about adepts, it happens to them all.

Exactly. Thank you.
Insanity is the mode that enforces this style of play, where you cannot have 'lesser' choices is all.

It is really no surprise at all that this happens. The mode demands it.

It doesn't happen to all classes though, this is a huge misconception to anyone who has not played an Infiltrator. Yes, against enemies with double protection and bosses you might have to have a squad member strip one defense away.  

At only level 8 on Insanity I can one shot head shot something that has one form of protection pretty much every time I don't miss and enemies with two end up losing both defenses and are down to half life.  This is well before my damage modifiers and weapon upgrades are even 30% complete and before I have the really good sniper rifles.  About the only argument that could be made to counter this is that it requires using cloak, which could have just been some other ability to strip away shields from another class.  Later on however I won't need to use cloak for single protected enemies, only those with double.

The difference being, the Infiltrator does not have to change the way the class plays going from normal to Insanity, anyone using biotics do.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

I am reading.

You are either not reading or not comprehending.

Again, warp spam is not fun. And if I wanted to play a class that just shot everything to death I would do so.

Again, when you remove the shields, barriers, and armors from enemies, they are almost dead and it is POINTLESSS to use other biotics on them. If I wanted to play a soldier I'd play a soldier and have more weapon choices.

Soruyao showed how Warp Spam was not necessary to play an Adept at the insanity level and is fact overrated. People claiming that it is necessary are not playing the class correctly, hence why they are not doing well.

Sorry, but you think the adept is meant to fire his weapon constantly?

The adept video says the adept can control the battlefield and kill without firing a shot. That is how the adept is meant to be played, but he can't be played that way.

The adept is not meant to be a gimped soldier.

Shooting the enemy until the all his defenses are down and then using chain pulls just so you can say you used pulls is not effective and serves no purpose.

And again, Soruyao said that he only uses a gun maybe 1/4 fights.

I don't doubt that he can drop defenses by spamming warp. And then use chain pulls to let the enemy kill them.

But I don't believe that on insanity your squad can drop defenses without you in 3 out of every 4 fights. Sorry, it aint happening.

I use my gun a tad more but that doesn't make my biotics less useful or central to the class.

Sure it does. If you are using your gun to dorp defenses, just  fire another burst to kill them instead of using pulll just to say you used it. Biotics should not be relegated to "saving ammo."

Regardless, I've played 4/6 classes in the game extensively and I am not having a considerably more difficult time on my Adept than I was on my Infiltrator, Soldier or Sentinel.

Again, you fail to understand what you have read. Spamming warp is not fun. Yes, you can kill with it, but it is not fun to cast warp 9 out of every 10 times you cast or to just cast something else to say you did it.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 03 février 2010 - 04:31 .

[flamingdts]

Graunt wrote...

gr00grams wrote...

We can really argue this way with ANY class when looking upon power gaming strategies on what is the best and what isn't..

Thank you.
Finally someone understands.

All these posts in this thread... about adepts, it happens to them all.

Exactly. Thank you.
Insanity is the mode that enforces this style of play, where you cannot have 'lesser' choices is all.

It is really no surprise at all that this happens. The mode demands it.

It doesn't happen to all classes though, this is a huge misconception to anyone who has not played an Infiltrator. Yes, against enemies with double protection and bosses you might have to have a squad member strip one defense away.  

At only level 8 on Insanity I can one shot head shot something that has one form of protection pretty much every time I don't miss and enemies with two end up losing both defenses and are down to half life.  This is well before my damage modifiers and weapon upgrades are even 30% complete and before I have the really good sniper rifles.  About the only argument that could be made to counter this is that it requires using cloak, which could have just been some other ability to strip away shields from another class.  Later on however I won't need to use cloak for single protected enemies, only those with double.

The difference being, the Infiltrator does not have to change the way the class plays going from normal to Insanity, anyone using biotics do.

I wouldn't say Biotics have to change the way they play. They have to limit the way they play, from tactical use of skills to disable enemies to plain skill spamming and shooting. Sure, we can disable enemy defenses with squad members, but once that is done it's easier to shoot the enemies since their health is pathetic. 

Vanguards have it out worse. They specialize in close combat yet their biotic skills that enable them to engage close combat more efficiently is horrible at best. Worse of all, Vanguards do not naturally have a defense stripping skill, so they're left with practically squad members and incendiary ammo to play the game, and an occasional charge for the sake of fun. 

[Graunt]

flamingdts wrote...

Graunt wrote...

gr00grams wrote...

We can really argue this way with ANY class when looking upon power gaming strategies on what is the best and what isn't..

Thank you.
Finally someone understands.

All these posts in this thread... about adepts, it happens to them all.

Exactly. Thank you.
Insanity is the mode that enforces this style of play, where you cannot have 'lesser' choices is all.

It is really no surprise at all that this happens. The mode demands it.

It doesn't happen to all classes though, this is a huge misconception to anyone who has not played an Infiltrator. Yes, against enemies with double protection and bosses you might have to have a squad member strip one defense away.  

At only level 8 on Insanity I can one shot head shot something that has one form of protection pretty much every time I don't miss and enemies with two end up losing both defenses and are down to half life.  This is well before my damage modifiers and weapon upgrades are even 30% complete and before I have the really good sniper rifles.  About the only argument that could be made to counter this is that it requires using cloak, which could have just been some other ability to strip away shields from another class.  Later on however I won't need to use cloak for single protected enemies, only those with double.

The difference being, the Infiltrator does not have to change the way the class plays going from normal to Insanity, anyone using biotics do.

I wouldn't say Biotics have to change the way they play. They have to limit the way they play, from tactical use of skills to disable enemies to plain skill spamming and shooting. Sure, we can disable enemy defenses with squad members, but once that is done it's easier to shoot the enemies since their health is pathetic. 

Vanguards have it out worse. They specialize in close combat yet their biotic skills that enable them to engage close combat more efficiently is horrible at best. Worse of all, Vanguards do not naturally have a defense stripping skill, so they're left with practically squad members and incendiary ammo to play the game, and an occasional charge for the sake of fun. 

How is limiting the way you play, when you were not limited before not the same as changing the way you play?  Not even going to discuss the Vanguard.  They seemed to have been doomed from the start past anything other than normal, but there are a few people that claim to play the class on Insanity and feel super powerful...

Modifié par Graunt, 03 février 2010 - 04:37 .

[vhatever]

tonnactus wrote...

vhatever wrote...

Umm. Warp does decent against shield. Does something like 50% damage.

Should we really discuss if warp or overload are better against shields?Everyone who will should better play on lesser difficulties.

Adepts don't get overload, sherlock.

[tonnactus]

Graunt wrote...

The difference being, the Infiltrator does not have to change the way the class plays going from normal to Insanity, anyone using biotics do.

Yes,but compare the Mass Effect 2 infiltrator with that of the first.The infiltrator lost sabotage,overload and damping.He also lost suvialbility.Yes,its fun for the first time to oneshot enemies even on insane with cloak,sometimes use incinerate.This is getting boring very fast after a while.I would say,the mass effect one infiltrator was better.More interesting to play.

Modifié par tonnactus, 03 février 2010 - 04:43 .

[MGIII]

vhatever wrote...

Umm. Warp does decent against shield. Does something like 50% damage. Better than nothing. Just go back to playing little kiddie mode.

Warp cannot hit shields unless you target an unshielded enemy with Warp within the radius of the shielded enemy.

Modifié par MGIII, 03 février 2010 - 04:47 .

[tonnactus]

vhatever wrote...


Adepts don't get overload, sherlock.

They have a squad.They could get energy drain as a bonus talent that is as effective as overload to take away shields.
If people despise of that use warp on shields,  thats their problem, not that of the bioware game designers.

Modifié par tonnactus, 03 février 2010 - 04:48 .

[tetracycloide]

MGIII wrote...

vhatever wrote...

Umm. Warp does decent against shield. Does something like 50% damage. Better than nothing. Just go back to playing little kiddie mode.

Warp cannot hit shields unless you target an unshielded enemy with Warp within the radius of the shielded enemy.

This is a popular misconception.  With good reason.  HuD, not accurate.  Warp damages shields.  Less effective than against armor or barrier.  Possible to targeting a Shield with it.  When a power appears orange abilities still castable.  Not always effective.  Warp is.

Modifié par tetracycloide, 03 février 2010 - 05:09 .

[tetracycloide]

tonnactus wrote...

They have a squad.They could get energy drain as a bonus talent that is as effective as overload to take away shields.
If people despise of that use warp on shields,  thats their problem, not that of the bioware game designers.

Reave more useful overall.  Energy drain better against shields.  Useless everywhere else.  Thus reduces warp spam less.

[Twizz089]

I just finish insanity with an adept and have to say there is alot of false info on this thread. "warp cannot hit shields unless you target an unshielded enemy with warp within the radius of shielded enemy" FALSE

Alot of posters here are just angry and have no clue what they are talking about



To have fun with an adept you have to depend on your squad more then other classes, this makes the class more challenging yet more fun then others.

Its rather simple, max out your squad members defense breaking talents and toss enemies about. In most fights i didnt even have to use warp, my squad quickly took away all defenses for me. If your going to be fighting geth, bring squad memebers with maxed out overload, if your going to be fighting high armor enemies, bring the doctor and a heavy warp Miranda. Use your squad as the debuffers circling around the room taking off all defenses so that there is nothing left but enemies with health only and the adept becomes a very potent damage dealer.

[Twizz089]

tetracycloide wrote...


This is a popular misconception.  With good reason.  HuD, not accurate.  Warp damages shields.  Less effective than against armor or barrier.  Possible to targeting a Shield with it.  When a power appears orange abilities still castable.  Not always effective.  Warp is.

Am I the only one that heard Mordin's voice when reading this? lol

[Akinra]

Twizz089 wrote...

tetracycloide wrote...


This is a popular misconception.  With good reason.  HuD, not accurate.  Warp damages shields.  Less effective than against armor or barrier.  Possible to targeting a Shield with it.  When a power appears orange abilities still castable.  Not always effective.  Warp is.

Am I the only one that heard Mordin's voice when reading this? lol

If you use an adept properly in ME2 they are still one of the most powerful classes in the game. The point was made earlier that in ME2 biotics are offensive now, as opposed to just being defensive/crowd control in ME1. The only enemies that cause any real difficulties are those with shields, and you can get around that easily enough using squad members who have overload and with your SMG (or an AR once you get a chance to pick that up).

If you have heavy warp (and preferably someone else with warp), barriers and armour fall very rapidly. There's a lot of fights I don't even have to fire a single shot. And even when I do my main offence is from biotics.

[Amioran]

Twizz089 wrote...
To have fun with an adept you have to depend on your squad more then other classes, this makes the class more challenging yet more fun then others.

Really? So try this: chose Jacob and Grunt as the squad members and play insanity with an Adept without Reave as your bonus skill. Good luck.

You say that using an Adept makes you rely on squad members more and so the game is more tactical. Try with the above two members, let's see how much you go further.

There's nothing more tactical on the fact of having to use certain skills to just use your fundamental abilities. You are forced to either use Reave/Warp all the time and/or bring along squad members that can do it. Failing the two you are in for a lot of frustration; what it is so tactical about it? Nothing.

The point is this: half the active skills of an Adept becomes "lesser" skills than others not because they are inferior or less effective, but only because you cannot use them on 90% of enemies on higher difficulties. Forcing users to bring along always the same squad members and/or using always the same skills doesn't make the game more difficult or challening, but only more boring and, on the contrary, LESS tactical.

Modifié par Amioran, 03 février 2010 - 05:34 .

[Graunt]

Twizz089 wrote...

I just finish insanity with an adept and have to say there is alot of false info on this thread. "warp cannot hit shields unless you target an unshielded enemy with warp within the radius of shielded enemy" FALSE
Alot of posters here are just angry and have no clue what they are talking about

To have fun with an adept you have to depend on your squad more then other classes, this makes the class more challenging yet more fun then others.
Its rather simple, max out your squad members defense breaking talents and toss enemies about. In most fights i didnt even have to use warp, my squad quickly took away all defenses for me. If your going to be fighting geth, bring squad memebers with maxed out overload, if your going to be fighting high armor enemies, bring the doctor and a heavy warp Miranda. Use your squad as the debuffers circling around the room taking off all defenses so that there is nothing left but enemies with health only and the adept becomes a very potent damage dealer.

Sure, you could do that and if you enjoy that then have fun.  Or, you could simply reduce the Adept to the debuff spammer while the others in your group who are actually more capable at killing things could simply kill things.  If you are considering replying with how an Adept could opt to pickup a Sniper Rifle or Assault Rifle, that's true, but then as how it's already been stated countless times, shooting guns to kill things is not what the Adept was hyped up to be.

I also kind of disagree with a previous post that said after the INI change that biotics are only moderately more useful and that the class as a whole still seems a lot weaker because abilities like shockwave don't do enough damage.  To me it's not about the damage, it's about the control and you can literally solo the majority of the game with a Nemesis Slam after that change if you have the patience for it.  It's not terribly exciting if you must blaze through room to room killing everything in the most efficient manner, but it gives you the most risk free ability to kill things.  You can even morph it to become like a Stasis that deals damage.  Is that overpowered at all?  90% of the time no, because it's still slower than just head shotting something but it simply offers you more choices on how you want to deal with enemies.

It's also still insanely fun to pull out double protected enemies and have them floating in the air while you have Garrus/Legion/Thane + whoever else destroy them essentially risk free.

Modifié par Graunt, 03 février 2010 - 05:44 .