1428 réponses à ce sujet

[tonnactus]

tetracycloide wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

They have a squad.They could get energy drain as a bonus talent that is as effective as overload to take away shields.
If people despise of that use warp on shields,  thats their problem, not that of the bioware game designers.

Reave more useful overall.  Energy drain better against shields.  Useless everywhere else.  Thus reduces warp spam less.

Reave is redundant for an adept.Its like a dot-version of warp with some healing.The biggest advantage is the possibility to evolve it to the area version.I would use it for the vanguard,not the adept.Its like an engineer take energy drain as a bonus talent.

Modifié par tonnactus, 03 février 2010 - 05:36 .

[Graunt]

tonnactus wrote...

tetracycloide wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

They have a squad.They could get energy drain as a bonus talent that is as effective as overload to take away shields.
If people despise of that use warp on shields,  thats their problem, not that of the bioware game designers.

Reave more useful overall.  Energy drain better against shields.  Useless everywhere else.  Thus reduces warp spam less.

Reave is redundant for an adept.Its like a dot-version of warp with some healing.The biggest advantage is the possibility to evolve it to the area version.I would use it for the vanguard,not the adept.Its like an engineer take energy drain as a bonus talent.

I think you are forgetting about Warp's ability to explode biotics that are currently active.  Unless I'm just mistaken since I've never tried it yet, you can't Warp explode a Warp can you?  But you can cast Reave and then explode it with Warp.  In fact, I haven't even bothered to check to see if Warp is even a dot anymore like it was in ME or if it just frontloads everything.

Modifié par Graunt, 03 février 2010 - 05:41 .

[flamingdts]

Graunt wrote...

How is limiting the way you play, when you were not limited before not the same as changing the way you play?  Not even going to discuss the Vanguard.  They seemed to have been doomed from the start past anything other than normal, but there are a few people that claim to play the class on Insanity and feel super powerful...

There is a world of difference, and a difference which I don't like. When games become harder, we're meant to change the way we play to adjust to the difficulty. Unfortunately for ME2, we are limited to a couple of skills and a gun to win. We didn't change our tactics, we just limited the potential tactical approaches to the game. 

All it takes are some adjustments in the ratio of health to defenses to fix this whole issue. 

Modifié par flamingdts, 03 février 2010 - 05:45 .

[tonnactus]

Amioran wrote...


Really? So try this: chose Jacob and Grunt as the squad members and play insanity with an Adept without Reave as your bonus skill. Good luck.

You have to take someone with a anti-shield power like overload,energy drain or disruptor ammo.
So your squad should have at least one of the follwoing squadmembers:
Miranda(Overload)
Garrus(Overload)
Tali (Energy Drain)
Zaeed:Disruptor ammo that should be evolved to the squad version

There should be at least one you like.

[tetracycloide]

tonnactus wrote...

Reave is redundant for an adept.Its like a dot-version of warp with some healing.The biggest advantage is the possibility to evolve it to the area version.I would use it for the vanguard,not the adept.Its like an engineer take energy drain as a bonus talent.

Deals more damage than warp.  Must be used as a DoT to do so.  Alternated with Warp exploits DoT damage best.  Better than Warp alone in all cases.  When detonated doubly so.

Warp and Reave useful against shields.  Less effective than Energy Drain though.  Margin small against shields.  Advantage too large elsewhere to ignore.

Modifié par tetracycloide, 03 février 2010 - 05:54 .

[Graunt]

flamingdts wrote...

Graunt wrote...

How is limiting the way you play, when you were not limited before not the same as changing the way you play?  Not even going to discuss the Vanguard.  They seemed to have been doomed from the start past anything other than normal, but there are a few people that claim to play the class on Insanity and feel super powerful...

There is a world of difference, and a difference which I don't like. When games become harder, we're meant to change the way we play to adjust to the difficulty. Unfortunately for ME2, we are limited to a couple of skills and a gun to win. We didn't change our tactics, we just limited the potential tactical approaches to the game. 

All it takes are some adjustments in the ratio of health to defenses to fix this whole issue. 

It appears to me that you're arguing the same thing but don't realize it.  My Adept gameplay revolved around controlling enemies and ocassionally tossing them off a cliff when able to as well as Warp on targets caught in a Singularity that was about to expire.  I mostly used pull and singularity for my globals because to me that was fun and it was my way of "sniping" high priority targets.  I would expose them and leave them vulnerable for X amount of time.  That is what the Adept is about to me.  You cannot do that same tactic at all on Inansity and thus the class plays completely different to me.

Insanity should have just been higher damage from enemies, better protected enemies and possibly a little more health.  There was no need for this immunity garbage that's infinitely more boring than the original immunity from the first game.

Modifié par Graunt, 03 février 2010 - 05:51 .

[tonnactus]

Graunt wrote...



I think you are forgetting about Warp's ability to explode biotics that are currently active.  Unless I'm just mistaken since I've never tried it yet, you can't Warp explode a Warp can you?  But you can cast Reave and then explode it with Warp.  In fact, I haven't even bothered to check to see if Warp is even a dot anymore like it was in ME or if it just frontloads everything.

No,i dont forget it.Yes,warp is now "frontload".Yes,reave and warp could use together in a effizient way.But the point is:If someone want to have Fun with his biotics,why even use this combination??

Modifié par tonnactus, 03 février 2010 - 05:50 .

[tetracycloide]

tonnactus wrote...
No,i dont forget it.Yes,warp is now "frontload".Yes,reave and warp could use together in a effizient way.But the point is:If someone want to have Fun with his biotics,why even use this combination??

If someone wants fun with biotics Insanity, not for them.  Insanity demands 'effizientcy' hence the moniker.

[Graunt]

tonnactus wrote...

Graunt wrote...



I think you are forgetting about Warp's ability to explode biotics that are currently active.  Unless I'm just mistaken since I've never tried it yet, you can't Warp explode a Warp can you?  But you can cast Reave and then explode it with Warp.  In fact, I haven't even bothered to check to see if Warp is even a dot anymore like it was in ME or if it just frontloads everything.

No,i dont forget it.Yes,warp is now "frontload".Yes,reave and warp could use together in a effizient way.But the point is:If someone want to have Fun with his biotics,why even use this combination??

To be fair, it makes the Adept more like a fireball/death cloud tossing Wizard more than it does a manipulator.  Although a similar effect could be had with Singulairy I guess, but I have no idea which would do the most damage.  I'm assuming Reave/Warp since you're already stripping away defenses before you explode them.  I can actually see how that combo would be fun, at least for a while, the problem though is when that's what you're stuck doing the majority of the time not because that's what you want to do, but because it's all you can do.

I'm really starting to believe that the fun vs challenge factor stops at Hardcore, and it has nothing to do with player ability.

Modifié par Graunt, 03 février 2010 - 05:55 .

[Twizz089]

Amioran wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...
To have fun with an adept you have to depend on your squad more then other classes, this makes the class more challenging yet more fun then others.

Really? So try this: chose Jacob and Grunt as the squad members and play insanity with an Adept without Reave as your bonus skill. Good luck.

You say that using an Adept makes you rely on squad members more and so the game is more tactical. Try with the above two members, let's see how much you go further.

There's nothing more tactical on the fact of having to use certain skills to just use your fundamental abilities. You are forced to either use Reave/Warp all the time and/or bring along squad members that can do it. Failing the two you are in for a lot of frustration; what it is so tactical about it? Nothing.

The point is this: half the active skills of an Adept becomes "lesser" skills than others not because they are inferior or less effective, but only because you cannot use them on 90% of enemies on higher difficulties. Forcing users to bring along always the same squad members and/or using always the same skills doesn't make the game more difficult or challening, but only more boring and, on the contrary, LESS tactical.

Do you know the definition of the word tactical.  You pick a squad that is not well rounded and wonder why you fail?

"but only because you cannot use them on 90% of enemies on higher difficulties."
You can use your adept powers on 100% of enemies. Sheilds/Armor are in the game to make you think, you have to bring a proper well rounded squad in order to beat the game on higher difficulties.  If you want to fight enemies with just health bars, not depend on your squad and face roll through the game play on normal. 

[flamingdts]

Graunt wrote...

It appears to me that you're arguing the same thing but don't realize it.  My Adept gameplay revolved around controlling enemies and ocassionally tossing them off a cliff when able to as well as Warp on targets caught in a Singularity that was about to expire.  I mostly used pull and singularity for my globals because to me that was fun and it was my way of "sniping" high priority targets.  I would expose them and leave them vulnerable for X amount of time.  That is what the Adept is about to me.  You cannot do that same tactic at all on Inansity and thus the class plays completely different to me.

Insanity should have just been higher damage from enemies, better protected enemies and possibly a little more health.  There was no need for this immunity garbage that's infinitely more boring than the original immunity from the first game.

I'm in agreement that biotics are much more limited on insanity, I think you're mis-comprehended what I'm saying. Like you said, there is a tactic you can no longer use in insanity. The tactic itself changes, but the skills remain limited as a result of the difficulty. In the end, you'll have to resort to a few common tactics in order to defeat your enemies on insanity, having to constantly spam the same skill. This is the reason I'm saying biotic gameplay is limited on insanity, not changed. We have less tactics to employ and less skills to use. 

[tonnactus]

tetracycloide wrote...


Deals more damage than warp.

I prefer straight damage.Especially against charging krogan.
 

Must be used as a DoT to do so.  Alternated with Warp exploits DoT damage best.  Better than Warp alone in all cases.  When detonated doubly so.

Wrote about fun.Not efficiency.Thats the point here.
Warp/Reave spam isnt fun.Discussion could end about that.

Modifié par tonnactus, 03 février 2010 - 05:59 .

[Graunt]

Twizz089 wrote...

Amioran wrote...

Twizz089 wrote...
To have fun with an adept you have to depend on your squad more then other classes, this makes the class more challenging yet more fun then others.

Really? So try this: chose Jacob and Grunt as the squad members and play insanity with an Adept without Reave as your bonus skill. Good luck.

You say that using an Adept makes you rely on squad members more and so the game is more tactical. Try with the above two members, let's see how much you go further.

There's nothing more tactical on the fact of having to use certain skills to just use your fundamental abilities. You are forced to either use Reave/Warp all the time and/or bring along squad members that can do it. Failing the two you are in for a lot of frustration; what it is so tactical about it? Nothing.

The point is this: half the active skills of an Adept becomes "lesser" skills than others not because they are inferior or less effective, but only because you cannot use them on 90% of enemies on higher difficulties. Forcing users to bring along always the same squad members and/or using always the same skills doesn't make the game more difficult or challening, but only more boring and, on the contrary, LESS tactical.

Do you know the definition of the word tactical.  You pick a squad that is not well rounded and wonder why you fail?

"but only because you cannot use them on 90% of enemies on higher difficulties."
You can use your adept powers on 100% of enemies. Sheilds/Armor are in the game to make you think, you have to bring a proper well rounded squad in order to beat the game on higher difficulties.  If you want to fight enemies with just health bars, not depend on your squad and face roll through the game play on normal. 

Yeah, I agree with you completely about picking squadmates that perform better against specific enemies, but that's pretty hard to do with your first playthrough and it relies on you remembering every mission and what the majority of enemy types were for your sequentials.  Another thing is that some people simply like bringing specific members because of the way they look and operate most of the time.  

Me for example, I *know* how Grunt could be very useful in many situations but I find him an utterly boring Wrex reject, and I tried running around with Thane because I thought he would be neat, but he is actually pretty boring.  Legion was the most interesting new character but you don't even have him around long enough for it to matter.  Garrus was my favorite from the first, not only because of his conversations but because of his looks and he was an all around more useful character compared to almost everyone else.  And I found myself still bringing him this time around despite the fact that some other character might be just a little better for a specific fight.

Modifié par Graunt, 03 février 2010 - 06:01 .

[tonnactus]

Graunt wrote...

To be fair, it makes the Adept more like a fireball/death cloud tossing Wizard more than it does a manipulator. .

Of cource.And thats a thing i could have also in games like Oblivion.So i dont use this combination.

[Skemte]

I think my beef overall with adept is its not the difficulty of being one as so much that abilities like throw, lift, and shockwave.. Which all looked cool in the video that showed off the adept, arn't worth it in the actual game it seems.. Shields and armor are resistant to just about everything, except a select few things.. While health bars do not resist anything and they are extremely low compared to the time it takes to reduce armor and shield.. So when you get some one past their shields to do lift and throw with the cool down you would be able to kill them faster just by using warp on them again or shooting them.

[tetracycloide]

tonnactus wrote...
I prefer straight damage.Especially against charging krogan.

Illogical.  No situations exist to backup position.  Warp and Warp always less damage.  If only one warp required, open with it.  If more, Reave and Warp always better.  Front-loaded damage not always best for expedient dispatch.  Tactic of favoring them, shortsighted.

[tonnactus]

Skemte wrote...
So when you get some one past their shields to do lift and throw with the cool down you would be able to kill them faster just by using warp on them again or shooting them.

I though the point was fun,not efficience.So why bother if shooting them is faster?Is this a speed contest?
And its not true.Al least with enemies that have armor as a protection,like bloodpacks,have a lot of health and it regenerates like lightspeed.Shielded enemies are always the weaker ones.That was also true in the first mass effect.

[Balek-Vriege]

I didn't read any posts here so I could give my very long, untainted view of biotics and specifically only Adepts.

So far I don't really have a problem so on my Adept but I also have to say I just recently bumped by character to hardcore difficulty (1st playthrough still) after maxing Biotic Mastery (Nemesis), Singularity (Wide), Warp (Heavy) and soon Warp Ammo (Squad) in that order. I had a feeling from the beginning that Pull/Throw would be gimmicky normal mode talents since they need you to take down shields/armor completely before you can even use them effectively.

Heavy Warp does around 50% of the damage of Overload against Shields, 33-50% damage of Incinerate to armor and loads of damage goodness to Barriers (Collectors anyone?) not counting biotic explosions, none of the drawbacks vs. enemy type and it's all wraped up into one power... Enough said. Well not enough said because you only spent 10 squad points for the best barrier killer and not so little fuctional brother of Overload/Incinerate. Singularity allows you to throw up an AoE crowd control at anytime, anywhere and ready to trap anything. Not to mention it synergies with Warp perfectly for biotic explosions.

-Singularity is Pull 2.0 with a 50% longer cooldown
-Warp is Throw 2.0 with a 100% longer cooldown

In the end I think it comes down to this for harder difficulties:

1) If you focus on a Pull/Throw combo at best you have to rely on team members (most likely tech based classes) to take down defenses while you throw your 1.5ish-3 second biotics at enemies to quickly get rid of them post-defenses. At worst you have to rely on your squad completely making your powers almost obsolete because by the time you throw off some effective biotics punches, your squad has already killed them (or your team has died whichever comes first).

2) If you focus on a Warp/Singularity combo at worst you will have slower recharge times than Throw/Pull. That makes fighting early on brutal with close to 4.5 sec to 6 sec recharge times unless you max Biotic Mastery quickly (ME1 level 60 saves help a lot here and you can max it after first mission). Warp might be your main damage power, but it still isn't an Overload for shields or an Incinerate for Armor, making you depend somewhat on those to take down elite non-barrier enemies quicker. At best you can ignore timing since Warp does damage to everything, your the best at taking down Barriers and your Adept is useful throughout the whole fight. Singularity instantly crowd controls the defenseless and can easily bottleneck enemies for after defenses start going down increasing the effectiveness of the squad hitting things with powers or guns.

3) You might want a defensive power on higher difficulties but if you learn to stay in cover, Warp Ammo combined with an SMG or an Assault Rifle will destroy Shields, allowing an adept to seriously butter up enemies in between cooldowns. I find on harder difficulties that more Shields doesn't help alot for Adepts (except vs. Scions) but taking down enemies before they get close does.

4) Based off points 1-3, I think the optimal PC biotic is a Nemesis Adept with maxed Heavy Warp, Wide Singularity, Squad/Heavy Warp Ammo, Heavy/Field Throw and a point in Pull for a quick gimmicky combo with other powers for close combat emergencies. Assault Rifle is awsome as well but I wonder if Sniper Rifle would be good for taking out elite mobs from a huge distance.
So are Biotics useless? No
But are they Harder to play? Yes

One question though based off my last point. Does it count for enemies with defenses to be "effected" by biotics when they're enveloped in blue for 1-2 seconds from being biotically stunned etc.? For example when I use Jacob's pull I try to see whether or not my warp explodes on armored/shielded foes if timed right, but I haven't been able to truly get a sense of it yet.

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 03 février 2010 - 07:17 .

[gr00grams]

Fun is almost irrelevant in Insanity.



Often I use whatever works to win, well really I always use whatever works to win on insanity.

If I don't, I die.



Again to reiterate;



This limitating the play isn't just for adepts. It happens to all classes when you play above Veteran. Even the almighty Infiltrator is reduced to only a few skills. I realize he performs at a faster rate, but it's the same thing none-the-less. Cloak, Incinerate, etc.



It's nothing wrong with the adept. It's nothing wrong with the new defenses system.

It is the direct result of making the enemies hp brickwalls. That is all.



Like, the damage done to the player with their skill use on insanity is almost enough on it's own for insanity.



Last night, playing a side quest to explore something, had a Large mech there. Regardless of using GUNS or pure biotics, it took eons to lower his defenses with anything. I ran out of assault rifle ammo, pistol ammo, even heavy weapon ammo. This just got me to it's actual health bar. Even using squad disruptor ammo, and having a memeber with incendiary ammo. I could only pop up for about a split second, as they absolutely rip through shields in like 1 second.



The scenario played out equally with soldier and adept. Get to shoot one second and sit in cover for a very, very long time, as the damage to the player is so incredibly high. Has to be like Jade Empire was; 350% dmg increase to enemies, 60% done from player, regardless of class.



That is the problem. Not skills, not the defense.

[tonnactus]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

3) You might want a defensive power on higher difficulties but if you learn to stay in cover, Warp Ammo combined with an SMG or an Assault Rifle will destroy Shields, allowing an adept to seriously butter up enemies in between cooldowns. I find on harder difficulties that more Shields doesn't help alot for Adepts (except vs. Scions) but taking down enemies before they get close does.
.

Fortification should be the best defensive skill.It improves armor instead of shields(shields seem to weaker then armor,like in the first game) .Adepts could learn it if they want to be able to take some more damage.

[tonnactus]

gr00grams wrote...

Fun is almost irrelevant in Insanity.
 

Looks like fun:

[Balek-Vriege]

tonnactus wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...

3) You might want a defensive power on higher difficulties but if you learn to stay in cover, Warp Ammo combined with an SMG or an Assault Rifle will destroy Shields, allowing an adept to seriously butter up enemies in between cooldowns. I find on harder difficulties that more Shields doesn't help alot for Adepts (except vs. Scions) but taking down enemies before they get close does.
.

Fortification should be the best defensive skill.It improves armor instead of shields(shields seem to weaker then armor,like in the first game) .Adepts could learn it if they want to be able to take some more damage.

I agree. Basically Warp Ammo if you want to go offensive and Fortification if you go defensive.  Shields just seem to evaporate just like they did in ME1 as you said.

[Hoffburger]

gr00grams wrote...

Fun is almost irrelevant in Insanity.

Often I use whatever works to win, well really I always use whatever works to win on insanity.
If I don't, I die.

Again to reiterate;

This limitating the play isn't just for adepts. It happens to all classes when you play above Veteran. Even the almighty Infiltrator is reduced to only a few skills. I realize he performs at a faster rate, but it's the same thing none-the-less. Cloak, Incinerate, etc.

It's nothing wrong with the adept. It's nothing wrong with the new defenses system.
It is the direct result of making the enemies hp brickwalls. That is all.

Like, the damage done to the player with their skill use on insanity is almost enough on it's own for insanity.

Last night, playing a side quest to explore something, had a Large mech there. Regardless of using GUNS or pure biotics, it took eons to lower his defenses with anything. I ran out of assault rifle ammo, pistol ammo, even heavy weapon ammo. This just got me to it's actual health bar. Even using squad disruptor ammo, and having a memeber with incendiary ammo. I could only pop up for about a split second, as they absolutely rip through shields in like 1 second.

The scenario played out equally with soldier and adept. Get to shoot one second and sit in cover for a very, very long time, as the damage to the player is so incredibly high. Has to be like Jade Empire was; 350% dmg increase to enemies, 60% done from player, regardless of class.

That is the problem. Not skills, not the defense.

Infiltrators and Soldiers are not affected by Insanity at all. Every ability they have is still extremely useful for optimal play on Insanity (except for Cryo Ammo, but that is crap on any difficulty).

Soldier:

Adrenaline Rush = Still extremely useful.
Ammo Powers = Still extremely useful.
Concussive Shot = Still extremely useful.

Infiltrator:

Incinerate = Still extremely useful.
Ammo Powers = Still extremely useful.
Tactical Cloak = Still extremely useful.
AI Hacking = Still fairly useful (makes a couple missions a complete joke, the reason why is posted somewhere on YouTube.

Adept:

Warp = Still extremely useful.
Singularity = Still somewhat useful.
Everything else = Useless.

Vanguard:

Ammo Power = Still extremely useful.
Charge = Rarely useful.
Everything else = Useless.

[Ahglock]

tetracycloide wrote...

tonnactus wrote...
I prefer straight damage.Especially against charging krogan.

Illogical.  No situations exist to backup position.  Warp and Warp always less damage.  If only one warp required, open with it.  If more, Reave and Warp always better.  Front-loaded damage not always best for expedient dispatch.  Tactic of favoring them, shortsighted.

1.  I want to say it is bad ass that you post like your icon would talk.

2.  You are wrong, the reaosn people prefer front loaded damage is they need the damage now, they will take a hit of 40 damage or so in order to get the damage now and not over 4 seconds as the whatver is eating them alive.  Sure if you are not being pressured by damage more damage is better whether it is a dot or front loaded, but when a husk swarm is on you you want the damage now, not after they club you to death. 

[Murmillos]

Hoffburger wrote...

Infiltrators and Soldiers are not affected by Insanity at all. Every ability they have is still extremely useful for optimal play on Insanity (except for Cryo Ammo, but that is crap on any difficulty).

Soldier:

Adrenaline Rush = Still extremely useful.
Ammo Powers = Still extremely useful.
Concussive Shot = Still extremely useful.

Infiltrator:

Incinerate = Still extremely useful.
Ammo Powers = Still extremely useful.
Tactical Cloak = Still extremely useful.
AI Hacking = Still fairly useful (makes a couple missions a complete joke, the reason why is posted somewhere on YouTube.

Adept:

Warp = Still extremely useful.
Singularity = Still somewhat useful.
Everything else = Useless.

Vanguard:

Ammo Power = Still extremely useful.
Charge = Rarely useful.
Everything else = Useless.

Engineer is still fun as hell on Instanity too.
You still have all skills to deal with everything except for barrier, but that can be done with Reave or Warp Ammo.

 Overload  = Shields
 Incinerate  = Armor & Health
 Combat Drone  = All - no damage but great for getting them out of cover
 Cryo Blast  = Health, but great for very HIGH health targets.
 AI Hacking (2 or 3 points) = Still good even if you strip the shields as it makes more distractions.  The more other hackable targets still around, the less useful.  2 vs 1 good, 3 vs 1 ok, 4 vs 1 dies to quickly from the combined fire before the cool down is off.

Bonus = Warp Ammo IMO for Barrier, Armor & Health.

Actually, the only time I need to fire my weapon is with warp ammo to deal with barrier or I'm getting swarmed by husks. 

If any enemy is hiding, I can spawn in a combat drone as it causes them to stand up and turn around to deal with it.  This leaves them open for attacks and head shots.

ADAPTS can not do that- other then warp/reave spam.

Modifié par Murmillos, 03 février 2010 - 09:46 .