1428 réponses à ce sujet

[Keithhy]

I haven't got around to playing an Adept in Mass Effect 2 yet, but my Vanguard's ranged biotic abilites seemed to work pretty well. If you really want to use biotics, just roll a Vanguard, and shockwave/charge everyone. Problem solved

[imemoria]

it's not about doing it or not. it's about the fact that 80% of adept abilities are usable on only 20 % of the foes lifespan on insanity, aka when their defenses are stripped => broken class. you can argue all day long that you rock on insanity with your adept( which I doubt but that's not my point), facts are there, adept are vastly underpowered on insanity and even hardcore.

[Amioran]

Twizz089 wrote...

Do you know the definition of the word tactical.  You pick a squad that is not well rounded and wonder why you fail?

"but only because you cannot use them on 90% of enemies on higher difficulties."
You can use your adept powers on 100% of enemies. Sheilds/Armor are in the game to make you think, you have to bring a proper well rounded squad in order to beat the game on higher difficulties.  If you want to fight enemies with just health bars, not depend on your squad and face roll through the game play on normal. 

The word tactical means adapting yourself to a given situation given the instruments you have. The point is that you cannot do it because you have to choose a proper squad and/or proper skills (in little words one: Warp) to play insanity with an Adept. This doesn't happen on lower difficulties, but not because the challenge is reduced (that naturally is appropriate) but only because you are forced to use only a strategy. This has nothing to do with being tactical. It would be as if a general has only the option of attacking from the front every time. Sure, you make it work, but there's no tactic behind it, you only use what you have to use and that's all.

The difference between lower and higher difficulties it's not dependent only on an increased challenge for Biotic users as for other classes. This is the point. For soldiers or Infiltrators an higher difficulty means an higher challenge but with the possibility to use every arsenal at your disposition. With an Infiltrator you can use without problems the squad I've given earlier and adapt to it to make it work if you want. You can max Incinerate or Cloak, or go for Assassin and Cryo. Some things works better, obvious, but everything works, so you can play with it. For an Adept, alas, it's not so. You must use some squad members and/or some skills or you fail, no matter how good you are.

Forcing some skills to become "lesser" skills instead just because you cannot use them properly doesn't make you think better or behave more strategically. It is only an artificial imposition. If the difference between a lower and higher difficulty for biotic users would only be challenge you could use the squad I've given without problems and adapt to it. The proof that something is wrong is just this. It's obvious that some patterns works better in some circumstances, but being confined to choose only a path it's an imposition that have nothing of tactical behind it.

Modifié par Amioran, 04 février 2010 - 11:07 .

[Flash_in_the_flesh]

Cryo84 wrote...

Less defense, more health. There, Adepts fixed.

IMO that's the worst way to fix it - making the game completely unrealistic.
Why do all organics and synthetics survive gunfire from high-tech mass accelerator weapons in ME universe? Not because their body is impervious to bullets but because of shields and armor.

Increasing health to fix adept is like creating one problem to solve another.

[IzzQuad]

Biotics work fine. You can still hit people with Warp, Shockwave, etc; with armour/shields. It won't lift them, move them, send them flying, etc; but it still does damage.  Besides, you have heavy weapons for taking down shields and armour on top of subs and heavy pistols, which are not bad weapons when used right.  All you need is an ally with disrupter/warp bullets to use their fully upgraded ability and you're set.

My first character was an Adept and I had no problems (although it was on Veteran rather than Hardcore or Insanity).

Modifié par IzzQuad, 04 février 2010 - 11:14 .

[handheld]

Flash_in_the_flesh wrote...

Cryo84 wrote...

Less defense, more health. There, Adepts fixed.

IMO that's the worst way to fix it - making the game completely unrealistic.
Why do all organics and synthetics survive gunfire from high-tech mass accelerator weapons in ME universe? Not because their body is impervious to bullets but because of shields and armor.

Increasing health to fix adept is like creating one problem to solve another.

Handheld himself agrees with this.


Handheld thinks it would be like doing this





to Mass effect 2 and this is a no no.

[Adamzen]

handheld seems to own great wisdom

[handheld]

Adamzen wrote...

handheld seems to own great wisdom

Handheld has indeed heard this many a time from his fellow forumites throughout his long life on the old ME boards.

Handheld also thanks you for the kind words and shall now build you a tricycle made of squirrel.

[Roxlimn]

Amioran:



That is absolutely untrue. On lower difficulty levels, Cryo ammo is actually good. On Hardcore and presumably Insanity, it's not that good anymore. In fact, it's strictly worse than either Pull or Throw, because it doesn't do anything that you can't do better firing ammo that actually kills the enemy.



Concussive Shot suffers from the same issue, so no, Soldiers and Infiltrators don't play the same on higher difficulty levels as on lower ones. Even the Sentinel's AI Hacking should be gimped by that argument, and I don't think it is.



Peeps here aren't trying or they're blind. On Hardcore, Shields and Armor go down fast if you use the right powers. Two uses of Overload will kill most any Shield, and three with Overload even the Shields of a Blue Sun Commander. Yes, I counted. After that, you can't use Overload - because Overload only damages Synthetics, and those comprise a minority of opponents. Most opponents are not synthetic - krogan, human, batarian, and Collectors form the majority of opponents. Geth, Mechs, and vehicles are a smaller fraction.



Once the enemy is down to Health, you're only getting rid of that by firing your gun, and by my count, you can unload a full pistol clip of Predator rounds into a Commander without him going down. That's a fairly significant chunk of health. In fact, many such guys can take a sniper round to the face and live.



That's not 20% In fact, I think it's closer to half for most targets, and about a third for those that have both Armor and Shield or Barrier defenses. The YMIR mech has significantly lower Health than Armor or Shields, but that's true for similar platforms. Geth have more Shields than Health. Sentry Drones only have Shields, and the take-over insect general (avoiding spoilers here) has only Barriers and Armor, both of which are susceptible to Warp.



You guys want us to believe your assertions? Give me numbers. Give me real stuff. Two shots of Overload on Hardcore will kill most Shields. Two Shots of Warp, most Barriers. That's real, and you can take that to the bank.



I don't find Health-only enemies to be "as good as dead." For most of the game, I'm fighting Health-only enemies, because they ALL devolve to that before they die. If the Adept didn't have such problems taking down Shields, I'd go for Armor Piercing Ammo, too, which is my ammo of choice for Soldier, Infiltrator, and Sentinel. It works because after you take away defenses with powers, you use your gun - and then you're concerned with Health or Armor+Health, not any other thing. I'm thinking that Shredder just might be worth investigating.



If you're going to assert that enemies on Insanity and Hardcore go down easy, don't get all leet on me and be all arrogant but vague about it. Show me the money.

[Flash_in_the_flesh]

Roxlimn wrote...

If you're going to assert that enemies
on Insanity and Hardcore go down easy, don't get all leet on me and be
all arrogant but vague about it. Show me the money.

Comparing to hardcore, enemies on insanity get on average +30% health bonus and twice the ammount of shields.

I understand that these numbers you are giving are from hardcore, not insanity. On insanity health to shield/armor proportions are much different. Sure you need a full predator clip to do something but you don't have to use your worst weapon...

Modifié par Flash_in_the_flesh, 04 février 2010 - 12:26 .

[For Humanity]

Roxlimn wrote...Rambling anecdotes

All classes get gimped in their own way on Insanity. The difference is that biotic characters rely on what is gimped and in turn rely on allies while the soldiers just fire more bullets. There are no tactical hoorays, no feeling that you outwitted your opposition because every fight is the same. A few enemies walk up to you, you kill them first, the rest hide back while you both take turns bobbing up and down. On a character that relies on the moronic ai, has limited tools of their own and the knowledge that battles won't ever progress into the fun zone. Mass Effect 2 becomes work, work that you paid to do, and that's just tedious.

[Undeath87]

The Adept was overpowered in ME1. They tried to balance biotic powers in ME2. They failed, now the Adepts are underpowered with everything but Warp.



It seems like in development of this game, everything they changed made it worse. They seemed to not be able to make small changes, but immediatley shifted to other extremes.



Inventory too big and clunky? Well now you have NO inventory!



Biotic powers too good? Well now they dont work on ANYTHING!



Come on, Bioware... stop overreacting allready. There is no reason at all shields and armor should stop a biotic attack. It makes no sense. All you would have to do is increase the cooldown time on everything but warp and make them effect everything... ta daa! Balance!



Oh wait, thats right... powers have a universal cooldown time. Another change that makes no god damned sense.

[Roxlimn]

Flash in the Flesh:



Can you get me some references for that? Can I open an HTML file in the program to confirm that? I'll see for myself once I finish my 4 concurrent playthroughs on Hardcore, but that's going to take a while.



If Shields are twice as much and health 30% as much... ...I can see where people might be resorting to Reave/Warp spam. Seriously, though, you don't need to do that. Singularity stops Shielded enemies at their locations. Pull+Warp is a nice combo that you can use to do mass damage - and you can still use the slot for Energy Drain. Throw - yeah, that does too little damage to be used as a damage power, but as a control, power, it cuts down on enemy firepower pretty good.



For Humanity:



The first ME also suffered from the same problems, actually. I tried Insanity on ME1 several times but I could never finish it, because it just got too boring. Almost finished it with Engineer-Medic, mainly because I was mainly reading the Codex entries. Also because Wrex/Ashley auto-won most missions for me (what with essentially infinite resurrections and all).



I think Hardcore is the sweet spot. Just hard enough to challenge, but not so hard that it becomes tedious. you can still blow through many combats really fast on Hardcore.

[Grayvern]

But the problem is that most of the fun abilities are hardly ever used on hardcore. But the dilemma veteran is too easy but way more fun in terms of power use becuase you can make guys fly. Not that there aren't harcore instances where biotics rock like precision taking down husk armor with the haevy pistol then killin 10 at one with a line of shockwaves.



Also I don't mind difficulty after all demons souls was one of my favouite games of last year.

[Roxlimn]

Grayvern:



Well, it really depends on what you find fun, doesn't it? ME2 is obviously balanced around a shooter game core. Frying enemies by lifting them without firing a single shot is much too powerful, given that it gives you free shots AND it disables the enemy in question.



I don't know how you're playing, but the way I'm playing, I'm using all my biotics. Mainly I use Warp and Energy Drain for stripping defenses, but the finishers are nearly always some combination of guns and Pull/Sing/Throw.



It's not much different than changing ammo on a Soldier. Disruptor to bring down Shields, switch to Inferno to take out Health.

[Mahouhashi]

Well on normal, my Fav class is still Adept, just b/c I never get sick of throwing ppl around like rag dolls. Sure my infiltrator can clear rooms in a couple of seconds and has a much easier time in Insanity, but hell the novelty of head shots grows old, head shot, head shot, head shot, cloak, find ammo, use ally skills, rinse repeat. I wonder why they couldn't just give powers equal footing to the improvement of guns in ME2, there's no cool down on changing weapons, why the heck should a power heavy class be forced to use a single power at a time? Especially when all those powers arrn't effective but one until shield/armor is gone. If we want to be a weapon heavy class we'd choose soldier or infiltrator like I have for one of my play throughs.

I agree with ppl that biotics should still work on armored/shielded foes, but to a lesser effect, universal cool down is a bummer as well, you get to see ppl wielding biotics freely in cut scenes so why can't the player? I doubt it'll happen in ME2, but hopefully will in ME3. Considering the number of ppl complaing you'd think Bioware that claims to listen to their fans would be taking notes.

Modifié par Mahouhashi, 04 février 2010 - 12:58 .

[Roxlimn]

Mahouhashi:



I think they're listening, but it's hard to really pin down what the fan base wants. As it is, biotics are really quite powerful. Even on Hardcore.



An Infiltrator can clear a gallery really fast - faster than any other class - but put him in a roomful of husks and he's only got Incineration Blast to save his bacon. It can get slow going if there are too many obstructions and hidey-holes and lots of close-range enemies. Assassination Cloak only gets you so far, after all.

[Youmu]

My 5 cents after completing ME2 on Insanity as Adept, starting with a L3 import from ME1.



Early on, it was largely spamming Warp. Hated every moment of it. Not sure if it was the moment when I used Miranda/Garrus exclusively as teammates (or just leveling up a bit) against enemies with shields when it got really easy. Pop Overload at shield with Garrus, toss a Throw/Lift/Singularity, pop a Warp on the floating guy from Miranda/yourself, bam, dead guy. With added bonus of MORE people being without shields due to the Warp explosion. Also Energy Drain/Area Drain as special power does wonders, all teammembers able to strip shields is pretty much GG.



For more armor oriented, Miranda and Grunt (squad fire ammo) or Garrus (squad AP ammo) melts armor off fast, again allowing use of Lift/Throw/Singularity + warp explosion.



It's not just boring spamming of Warp what lot of people seem to make it be, sure you CAN just spam Warp and cry about it, or you could use your teammates, and spice it up by using Lift/Singularity/Reave or Energy Drain in addition to Warp. Lift/Singularity just for Warp explosion is very useful when enemies are packed up in tighter groups.



Being tied to the few team members with efficient shield/armor stripping abilities is bit annoying surely, but it's efficient and prevents a lot of frustration.

[Flash_in_the_flesh]

@Roxlimn



This info is taken from coalesced.ini. Search for [SFXGame.SFXDifficulty_Level5] section for insanity settings.

[Roxlimn]

Youmu:

You can also use Mordin for Incineration Blast. Strip Shields with you and Miranda/Garrus, then Incineration Blast with Mordin. Brutally effective, and available ridiculously early, assuming you focus all points on Incinerate with Mordin.

Pull/Warp is just another nuke to add on top of that.

Flash in the Flesh:

Thanks a lot.  I'll look at the file.  Should be interesting to see the settings for all the stuff.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 04 février 2010 - 01:15 .

[RamsenC]

It would help if singularity was worth being an adept exclusive power. If I knew how I would make a mod that allows singularity to effect all enemies without dual layered defense. So shield and armor enemies can be effected, but tougher enemies with both shield and armor will be immune. Would probably make it a little overpowered, but at least it makes the class more fun and interesting.



Shockwave working on shields wouldn't be so bad either.

[Grayvern]

I fully realise that teamates can be used to aleviate the problem but then I prefer playing as vanguard so I was doing this with tali and thane. Tali for drain me with area reave then lift and thane with area throw. And then using charge to ge in tactical positions and cheesin people up close with the assault shotgun rapid fire.



But that's not the point you always have the option of company which is why the above example of an I filtrator being rushed makes no sense, especially since your teamtes ai drones are super attractive to husks.



But then when you strip enemies of shields or armour they die so quickly there's no point using powers, or your teamates take ten down.

[Grayvern]

But you have to feel that with more attention to enemy placements that it could still be challenging even if biotics had two thirds or half effect on all enemies regardlessof barrier.



But that's perhaps something to think about in terms of mass effect 3. Not that all my negativity means I don't love the game.

[Flash_in_the_flesh]

RamsenC wrote...

It would help if singularity was worth being an adept exclusive power. If I knew how I would make a mod that allows singularity to effect all enemies without dual layered defense. So shield and armor enemies can be effected, but tougher enemies with both shield and armor will be immune. Would probably make it a little overpowered, but at least it makes the class more fun and interesting.

Shockwave working on shields wouldn't be so bad either.

Making biotics work on protected enemies wouldn't overpower adepts. They would be better but not stronger than guncentric classes, just about the same. While you'd be watching how your enemies fly, soldier would watch enemy corpses. Biotics are just as effective as guns at killing. The problem is guns always work while biotics don't. Sure you can kill heaps of husks by lifting them but so do heavy weapons. Yes, guns need ammo but ammo is not such a problem considering guns reliability. I'd surely trade biotic "ammo"/mana/charges for ability to use them on shielded enemies.

[Zoe Dedweth]

Two powers that combine really well for insanity are morinth's Dominate + Warp. Dominate your enemy to give them a biotic barrier (rank 3 ?) then hit them with warp for a nice big explosion.

This gives you 3 things you need for insanity -

A meat shield - use the enemies toughness against them.

Crowd control - Explosion knockback

Damage - Wide area damage, speeds up killing by damaging everything in the area reasonably well.



Pretty cool not ?