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Why were biotics made useless in ME2?


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#1151
AlphaJarmel

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themaxzero wrote...

AlphaJarmel wrote...

themaxzero wrote...

AlphaJarmel wrote...

Adepts are one of the worst classes(if not the worst) because all their skills can be done by other classes to better effects. Incinerate is better for armor, Reave is better for Barriers, Disrupter ammo is better for shields, and health itself really doesn't matter.


No one can do Singularity. Adept is the only class that can CC through shields.


And?  Soldiers have Andenaline Rush, Infiltrators have Cloak, and Sentinels have Tech Armor.  All those are better because they're defensive.  The Engineer's bot is somewhat useful but is kinda limited, Charge is pretty much useless, and Singularity doesn't really do enough damage for it to be considered a game changer.  Not only that Singularity is only one power.  So Adepts have one good power?


How is the ability to AoE CC almost any enemy reguardless of protection (so they can't shoot back) not a good defensive skill? Especially when you can curl it around so you do not have to expose yourself?


For the simple reason that not all enemies rush you and some particular enemies I've seen have not been affected by Singularity.  However I'll give you Singularity so you now have one decent power.

Then we can go on about how Warp is the jack of trades but master of none.

So we have one goodAdept power compared to an Infiltrator's three good powers. 

#1152
Roxlimn

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Gringbot:



So you're going to resort to personal attacks as well?



Tell you what, every time I see someone saying that Adepts can't use anything but Warp to advantage on Hardcore (or without any qualification), I'll PM you. How's that?

#1153
matt654321

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themaxzero wrote...

Well apparently Adepts suck in Insanity and you and me just don't exist.

Wow you're thick - the argument is that Adepts aren't fun and don't do what they're supposed to do on insanity, not that they can't complete it. Your mischaracterizations aren't helping anyone.

#1154
Hoffburger

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Roxlimn wrote...

Hoffburger:

It's "drivel," not dribble.

It's obvious that you have an agenda and are not willing to consider facts. To you, killing enemies like clockwork on Insanity every 2 seconds, headshotting through the entire game is EASY. That speaks for itself. I am familiar with people who are more skilled at shooter games than that (as I'm sure you're aware), but they're none of them operating under the delusion that they're normal and that what they're doing is easy.

I can give you a situation where power use killed a bunch of mooks nearly instantly, since it actually happens in my games, but I'm not sure you're all that open to discussing it honestly, so what's the point?

Yea you can use pull or singularity then detonate it, or you could just use two warps for better effect. SInce the detonation doesn't allow me to manipulate ragdolls like the class video I'm only concerned with if it does more damage than two warps, which it doesn't against a single target. On the very rare occasion that enemies are close enough, yes you can use it, but those situations are few and far between.


Okay, now you're just talking nonsense.  Both Pull and Singularity have shorter cooldowns than Warp, so they expend less resources.  Moreover, Pulled opponents are sitting ducks, fair game for shooting, whereas two Warps don't have the same surety.  And Warps don't track as well as Pulls.

Seriously, have you really tried?  I've been using Pull-Warp and Singularity-Warp to devastating effect on Hardcore.  Nail them to the ground with Sing, the detonate the floater with Warp.  Fantastic effect.  Way better than two Warps.  Also, you don't need two guys with Heavy Warp to pull it off.

Flash_in_the_Flesh:

Can't speak for Insanity, but on Hardcore, I get Thrown and Flying opponents all the time. Clearly, it works for a majority of the game's settings. If I played at Insanity about a month from now and I say, for instance, that I'm able to put Pull and Throw to good use, are you really open to dialogue on how I did it, or are you just going to call me names and belittle me like everyone else?


Corrected, thanks, I don't have time to proofread for stupid mistakes. Give me a situation and quit sidestepping it. You're the one that brought it up, put up or shut up.

So let me get this straight, you're using a Pull-Warp combo on the enemy and they are floating in the air? Why not just use Warp and kill them without wasting the 3 second cooldown from Pull. If they are down low enough for Pull to affect them, then they are down low enough for Warp to kill them.

Since we are still talking about optimality and not fun as I origninally intended let's dive deeper into the issue. First off, the best squadmates, regardless of the class being played, for optimal runs are Garrus and Miranda. Garrus' powers account for all 3 defenses and he gets to use a Sniper Rifle with Tungsten Ammo. Miranda covers all 3 defenses and gives a squad damage bonus. Direct damage will always beat out control and AoE on Insanity (except for Overload on the Scout Drones on the Tali level, but the high damage version still hits them all anyways). As an Adept you want to be spamming Warp on enemies that still have defenses and using Tungsten Ammo (not squad, both you and garrus use the +70% version) with your Viper on stripped enemies to finish them off with a headshot or two. There is no way using Pull+Warp on an enemy without defenses is going to beat out using Warp on two enemies with defenses while shooting the ones without defenses with a Sniper Rifle.

#1155
Roxlimn

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Hoffburger:



No sir. You've been insulting and offensive this whole way, and clearly with intent. If you want how I did it, you gotta ask nice. Otherwise, you can go ahead and think and play however you want. I've made enough of a case, I think, to convince the average reader to see for himself and not take your word for it.

#1156
themaxzero

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AlphaJarmel wrote...

themaxzero wrote...

AlphaJarmel wrote...

themaxzero wrote...

AlphaJarmel wrote...

Adepts are one of the worst classes(if not the worst) because all their skills can be done by other classes to better effects. Incinerate is better for armor, Reave is better for Barriers, Disrupter ammo is better for shields, and health itself really doesn't matter.


No one can do Singularity. Adept is the only class that can CC through shields.


And?  Soldiers have Andenaline Rush, Infiltrators have Cloak, and Sentinels have Tech Armor.  All those are better because they're defensive.  The Engineer's bot is somewhat useful but is kinda limited, Charge is pretty much useless, and Singularity doesn't really do enough damage for it to be considered a game changer.  Not only that Singularity is only one power.  So Adepts have one good power?


How is the ability to AoE CC almost any enemy reguardless of protection (so they can't shoot back) not a good defensive skill? Especially when you can curl it around so you do not have to expose yourself?


For the simple reason that not all enemies rush you and some particular enemies I've seen have not been affected by Singularity.  However I'll give you Singularity so you now have one decent power.

Then we can go on about how Warp is the jack of trades but master of none.

So we have one goodAdept power compared to an Infiltrator's three good powers. 


Singularity is good.

Warp is good.

That is two.

I never said the Adept was better then Inf or Soldier I am simply showing you that it's not useless on Insanity.

Since you were wrong about Singularity what else are you wrong on?

#1157
themaxzero

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matt654321 wrote...

themaxzero wrote...

Well apparently Adepts suck in Insanity and you and me just don't exist.

Wow you're thick - the argument is that Adepts aren't fun and don't do what they're supposed to do on insanity, not that they can't complete it. Your mischaracterizations aren't helping anyone.


My Adept controls and kills enemies on Insanity with Biotic powers. What am I doing that i'm not supposed to be doing?

#1158
Akrim_Drak

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I dunno about everyone else but I just finished Hardcore as an Adept(going to do NG+ Insanity with him next) and I had absolutely no problems with anything that wasn't a melee type enemy and even then those were usually dead before they could get close enough. Sure Throw and Pull don't work on shielded things but that's what Singularity and Warp were for, then I could Throw or Pull them easy enough.

Also bringing other biotic teammates makes it even easier. I went with Samara and Miranda and had little trouble even on Scions. They're hardly a "bad" class, you just have to play differently. I personally found Adept easier than the other classes I've played. (I've finished with a Soldier and a Sentinel.)

Modifié par Akrim_Drak, 04 février 2010 - 10:30 .


#1159
Murmillos

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themaxzero wrote...

matt654321 wrote...

themaxzero wrote...

Well apparently Adepts suck in Insanity and you and me just don't exist.

Wow you're thick - the argument is that Adepts aren't fun and don't do what they're supposed to do on insanity, not that they can't complete it. Your mischaracterizations aren't helping anyone.


My Adept controls and kills enemies on Insanity with Biotic powers. What am I doing that i'm not supposed to be doing?


Thats fine, but what do you do against enemies that have shields/barrier and armor.  Do you cast warp and reave do deal with it, or do you let your squad mates take care of shields and barrier and armor?

#1160
AlphaJarmel

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themaxzero wrote...

AlphaJarmel wrote...

themaxzero wrote...

AlphaJarmel wrote...

themaxzero wrote...

AlphaJarmel wrote...

Adepts are one of the worst classes(if not the worst) because all their skills can be done by other classes to better effects. Incinerate is better for armor, Reave is better for Barriers, Disrupter ammo is better for shields, and health itself really doesn't matter.


No one can do Singularity. Adept is the only class that can CC through shields.


And?  Soldiers have Andenaline Rush, Infiltrators have Cloak, and Sentinels have Tech Armor.  All those are better because they're defensive.  The Engineer's bot is somewhat useful but is kinda limited, Charge is pretty much useless, and Singularity doesn't really do enough damage for it to be considered a game changer.  Not only that Singularity is only one power.  So Adepts have one good power?


How is the ability to AoE CC almost any enemy reguardless of protection (so they can't shoot back) not a good defensive skill? Especially when you can curl it around so you do not have to expose yourself?


For the simple reason that not all enemies rush you and some particular enemies I've seen have not been affected by Singularity.  However I'll give you Singularity so you now have one decent power.

Then we can go on about how Warp is the jack of trades but master of none.

So we have one goodAdept power compared to an Infiltrator's three good powers. 


Singularity is good.

Warp is good.

That is two.

I never said the Adept was better then Inf or Soldier I am simply showing you that it's not useless on Insanity.

Since you were wrong about Singularity what else are you wrong on?



*sigh*
The reason I don't consinder Singularity any good is due to the fact that it doesn't work in all cases like the other classes abilities do.  Charge has its' uses too but that doesn't make it good.

Warp is crap if you compare the statistics.  So again it's mediocre at best.  In comparison to the other abilities an adept has,it's good but overall it's still not good.

Adepts are simply second class compared to the main trio.

Modifié par AlphaJarmel, 04 février 2010 - 10:33 .


#1161
Flash_in_the_flesh

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themaxzero wrote...

I never said the Adept was better then Inf or Soldier I am simply showing you that it's not useless on Insanity.


Neither did OP, nor any other player disappointed with adept gameplay. It's not that adepts are useless on insanity, it's not they are harder to play. They are just boring and they can't do what define them as fun class. Adept = people flying. Adept on insanity = no more flying = not an adept anymore.

#1162
Hoffburger

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Roxlimn wrote...

Hoffburger:

No sir. You've been insulting and offensive this whole way, and clearly with intent. If you want how I did it, you gotta ask nice. Otherwise, you can go ahead and think and play however you want. I've made enough of a case, I think, to convince the average reader to see for himself and not take your word for it.


Lol, I never thought I would meet President Obama, much less on the Mass Effect 2 boards. You really are the best at dodging questions.

#1163
themaxzero

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AlphaJarmel wrote...

themaxzero wrote...

AlphaJarmel wrote...

themaxzero wrote...

AlphaJarmel wrote...

themaxzero wrote...

AlphaJarmel wrote...

Adepts are one of the worst classes(if not the worst) because all their skills can be done by other classes to better effects. Incinerate is better for armor, Reave is better for Barriers, Disrupter ammo is better for shields, and health itself really doesn't matter.


No one can do Singularity. Adept is the only class that can CC through shields.


And?  Soldiers have Andenaline Rush, Infiltrators have Cloak, and Sentinels have Tech Armor.  All those are better because they're defensive.  The Engineer's bot is somewhat useful but is kinda limited, Charge is pretty much useless, and Singularity doesn't really do enough damage for it to be considered a game changer.  Not only that Singularity is only one power.  So Adepts have one good power?


How is the ability to AoE CC almost any enemy reguardless of protection (so they can't shoot back) not a good defensive skill? Especially when you can curl it around so you do not have to expose yourself?


For the simple reason that not all enemies rush you and some particular enemies I've seen have not been affected by Singularity.  However I'll give you Singularity so you now have one decent power.

Then we can go on about how Warp is the jack of trades but master of none.

So we have one goodAdept power compared to an Infiltrator's three good powers. 


Singularity is good.

Warp is good.

That is two.

I never said the Adept was better then Inf or Soldier I am simply showing you that it's not useless on Insanity.

Since you were wrong about Singularity what else are you wrong on?



*sigh*
The reason I don't consinder Singularity any good is due to the fact that it doesn't work in all cases like the other classes abilities do.  Charge has its' uses too but that doesn't make it good.

Warp is crap if you compare the statistics.  So again it's mediocre at best.  In comparison to the other abilities an adept has,it's good but overall it's still not good.

Adepts are simply second class compared to the main trio.


Singularity holds every single enemy except large combat robots and the big floaty collector mini bosses (thats my name for them). In pretty much all situations those enemies are bosses at the end of levels.

Warp does double damage to Barriers and Armour, stops regen, can curl around terrain and can does auto 5 meter AoE if it targets someone in a Biotic Power (like Singularity). It's more the medicore.

So now that you are wrong about Singularity AND Warp what else are you wrong about?

#1164
AlphaJarmel

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Flash_in_the_flesh wrote...

themaxzero wrote...

I never said the Adept was better then Inf or Soldier I am simply showing you that it's not useless on Insanity.


Neither did OP, nor any other player disappointed with adept gameplay. It's not that adepts are useless on insanity, it's not they are harder to play. They are just boring and they can't do what define them as fun class. Adept = people flying. Adept on insanity = no more flying = not an adept anymore.


I am.  Adepts aren't useless but they certainly aren't top dog which either belongs to Soldier or Infiltrator.

@themaxzero

Ok now you're just inaccurate.
http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Warp

^Whre does that say double damage?  Reave does but Warp doesn't equal Reave.  Even IF it did double damage, Reave is better.  And I've already talked about the other powers and why Warp is crappier than them.

And that's why Singularity isn't as good.

Now that you were wrong on Warp and wrong on Singularity, what else have you been wrong about?

Modifié par AlphaJarmel, 04 février 2010 - 10:46 .


#1165
Goat_Shepard

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1st playthrough = lv28 Adept. Got the Sniper rifle, then had Tali + Legion on my team with two combat drones, two AI Hacking, and I had Neural Shock as my 7th skill. Heavy Shockwave plus Heavy Warp plus Singularity on max.



So yeah..np's there...I'll go through as an Infiltrator and see if it's better, but I was only mildly annoyed by the ineffectiveness of some of the powers...especially cuz Warp is the universal THING DESTROYER.



And having no global recharge time on biotics was waaay overpowering in ME1. I like this system.



Do agree on the low HP on nearly every monster (although they do say the Geth traditionally have more shields than health).

#1166
themaxzero

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Flash_in_the_flesh wrote...

themaxzero wrote...

I never said the Adept was better then Inf or Soldier I am simply showing you that it's not useless on Insanity.


Neither did OP, nor any other player disappointed with adept gameplay. It's not that adepts are useless on insanity, it's not they are harder to play. They are just boring and they can't do what define them as fun class. Adept = people flying. Adept on insanity = no more flying = not an adept anymore.


So its all boiled down to "I can't play Insanity like I can normal?"

No you can't and I wouldn't want to.

On my normal run my Adept ran through most of the game spamming Throw field. While hilarious at times it was boring in it's own way.

#1167
themaxzero

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AlphaJarmel wrote...

Flash_in_the_flesh wrote...

themaxzero wrote...

I never said the Adept was better then Inf or Soldier I am simply showing you that it's not useless on Insanity.


Neither did OP, nor any other player disappointed with adept gameplay. It's not that adepts are useless on insanity, it's not they are harder to play. They are just boring and they can't do what define them as fun class. Adept = people flying. Adept on insanity = no more flying = not an adept anymore.


I am.  Adepts aren't useless but they certainly aren't top dog which either belongs to Soldier or Infiltrator.


And Adepts were gods in ME 1.

The wheel turns.

#1168
Flash_in_the_flesh

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themaxzero wrote...

So now that you are wrong about Singularity AND Warp what else are you wrong about?


Warp and singularity are fine but it's not the point. If you are satisfied that all your adept do is holding and warping and occasionaly using throw to do a little damage to shields than OK. I for one remember completely different adept from pre-release trailers.

It also makes me wonder how come Subject Zero and biotics in general are considered so dangerous in ME universe if their powers are so limited.

#1169
Hoffburger

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themaxzero wrote...

AlphaJarmel wrote...

Flash_in_the_flesh wrote...

themaxzero wrote...

I never said the Adept was better then Inf or Soldier I am simply showing you that it's not useless on Insanity.


Neither did OP, nor any other player disappointed with adept gameplay. It's not that adepts are useless on insanity, it's not they are harder to play. They are just boring and they can't do what define them as fun class. Adept = people flying. Adept on insanity = no more flying = not an adept anymore.


I am.  Adepts aren't useless but they certainly aren't top dog which either belongs to Soldier or Infiltrator.


And Adepts were gods in ME 1.

The wheel turns.


Did you even play ME 1? Warp Soldiers, AI Hacking Infiltrators, and Singularity Vanguards were all higher on the "tier list" for Insanity optimization. Immunity was king, pistols were king, warp was still king. Adepts were better than Sentinels and Engineers, that's it. They were good, but nowhere near as potent as the other three.

#1170
Roxlimn

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Flash_in_the_Flesh:



It's possible that the interpretation in the lore is meant to center around NORMAL difficulty, where Adepts can, more or less, throw everybody around willy-nilly.

#1171
Flash_in_the_flesh

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themaxzero wrote...

So its all boiled down to "I can't play Insanity like I can normal?"


The difference between normal and insanity isn't only about disabling biotics you know. I don't mind dying from 2 shots on insanity, I don't mind that enemies have tons of shields, armor and HP. I don't mind wasting whole pistol clip or more to deplete enemy health. I just want adepts to stay adepts. No other class stops using half of their skills on insanity.

Edit: Sorry vanguard biotics are even worse.

Roxlimn wrote...

Flash_in_the_Flesh:

It's
possible that the interpretation in the lore is meant to center around
NORMAL difficulty, where Adepts can, more or less, throw everybody
around willy-nilly.


True.

Modifié par Flash_in_the_flesh, 04 février 2010 - 10:55 .


#1172
Roxlimn

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Hoffburger:



I've already outlined the procedure and situation elsewhere on the forum. It's not a big secret, but if you're not going to be decent about asking for it, then I don't see why I need to make it easy for you. Find your own data.

#1173
kelsjet

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themaxzero wrote...
So its all boiled down to "I can't play Insanity like I can normal?"

No you can't and I wouldn't want to.


Um..

On my soldier,
On Normal: I use 100% of my powers on 100% of enemies and blast through the game
On Insanity: I use 100% of my powers on 100% of enemies and blast through the game


On my adept,
On Normal: I use 95% of my powers on 95% of enemies and warp through the game
On Insanity: I use 5% of my powers on 1% of enemies and sit out most fights.

^
That is the discrepency people have been emphasising for the past 40+ pages in this thread. Are you trying to tell us that you still don't know wtf everyone is talking about?

/sigh
Some people just can't process simple facts. I blame WoW.
WoW and facebook.

#1174
Happykola

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On the one hand against certain enemies with high shields and low health it can be very annoying, but on the other hand atleast now tech powers are actually useful for something.



In mass effect 1 i played a soldier with liara and kaidan, i had 2 throws, 2 lifts and 1 singularity all on seperate (and very short cooldowns) and all affecting every single enemy, most of them were also AoE. i could take out 3 or 4 mobs with one singularity and given proper timing i could cc and damage 4 mobs almost instantaneously.



I don't think biotics are useless now, warp/overload followed by pull/slam/throw combos are still very powerful (warp is insane against harbingers which alone justifies taking a biotic) they just aren't utter god mode liek they were in mass effect 1.

#1175
OrionUnas

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Popstick wrote...

I was ripping through the Collectors, Blue Suns/Bloods and Eclipse with an Adept on a mixture of Hardcore and Insanity...so, don't know what problems you were having. Heck, there were large segments of the game where I didn't even fire a single shot and could still clear a room. Throw a Warp to knock out their Barrier or Armour. If it's still up, fire a second one while behind cover. If there are multiple protected enemies, stay behind cover and fire Warp repeatedly until they're all softened up. Since the recharge time is very quick, 5 or so seconds, you can clear an entire room in a matter of minutes. Finish the softened up enemies with a couple of Pulls. I just let my squad mates shoot the floating enemies.

And your abilities don't scale with difficulty, but the enemies do. Unprotected enemies, Varren, Husks on Normal will have Armour on Hardcore and Insanity. Enemies will use upgraded weapons and fire powers more frequently compared to Normal.


I disagree.  I'm using a soldier right now, and usualy have Miranda on my team for her Unstable Warp, or Heavy Warp... I'm using it on every enemy who has a Barrier, and the best it does it take off a sliver of their defence.