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Why were biotics made useless in ME2?


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#1201
Amioran

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Roxlimn wrote...

AP Ammo is great.  I use it a lot, myself, but "best skill?"  I'm not sure there is just one such skill.

Warp Ammo is nice, but it's always struck me as a little underpowered compared to other ammo skills.  Certainly, you'll see much greater impact from Disruptor Ammo in the early goings.  I tried going Warp Ammo for my Sentinel, until I realized that since I almost never use my gun to strip defenses anyway, having a general purpose ammo was kind of useless.  AP was better for my purposes there.


The debate on which skill is best was begun by you, not by me. I am talking about a total different thing, you sidestepped.

And yes, on some missions, some ammo types become rather useless.  For instance, Disruptor Ammo won't do you any good on Tuchanka.


"On some missions", that's the word. It is not "on every mission" and "on every encounter" as for Biotics, apart the fact that anyway what you say it's not exact since Disruptor Ammo has other functions apart mech destroying, one of them bringing shield down, the other overloading weapons, so it is always useful.

But again, this is another thing altogheter, we are not talking about which skill is better here. We are talking about the fact that for a game imposition biotics don't work as they should on higher difficulties.

I get what you're saying, but consider this: Pull and Throw are not crowd control powers.  They're single target control powers.  And yes, they've been effective in my use even on Hardcore.


Pull and Throw ARE crowd controlling skills. Their purpose is NOT to kill but to CONTROL enemies. Naturally I can see why you can say a thing as this in ME2 (since they actually become finishing moves skills, instead of what they should do), but their true use is as a control mean.

I don't HAVE to use them.  But it's fun and effective to do so, so I do.  Similarly, I don't have to use an Assault Rifle as a Soldier.  I can finish the game with the Predator Pistol.  But I use the AR because it's effective and fun.


The point is not if you HAVE to use them or not. The point is that also if you want you CANNOT. You can do it only when certain conditions are met, and these conditions force you to use the skills in a certain way only and change their former use altogheter.

Shrug.  Again, that is a matter of perception.  I do not have preconceived notions of what an Adept "should" or "should not" do.  It does what it does and nothing more nor less.


You can play an Adept as you like to, this doesn't change the FACT that the Adept is a crowd control class as clearly stated in the trailer of the class and its description. You can naturallly also play a Wizard in a normal RPG as a crossbow spammer, but this would not change the fact that your role would be to control the battlefield instead of doing it.

You see, you have actually demonstrated yourself that biotics powers have changed their real scope, whithout either understanding it. The fact that you say that Pull and Throw are not crowd control skills is the proof that you are now forced to use them in another way.

How the mechanics work is how the game works.  Is it bad that I can't be as effective using a Pistol as using a Rifle?  What if I want a Pistol-slinging hero who takes out enemies from clear across sniper range with one shot?  The game doesn't allow me to do that, either.


Shame that how the game works is not uniformed between difficulties. What you say would be true if all the game and all difficulties would play the same but alas that's not so. While the imposition it's still there the difference is in the diffusion and the scope of the same, and this makes Adepts in particular behave completely differently changing difficulty in the game. This is not a thing that happens usually in a game. If you use a mage in DA:O on normal difficulty and you use him on Insanity the experience and how spells works doesn't change. The difficulty increases but the role remains intact. This is not true for ME2.

In ME2 on lower difficulties and Adept is a crowd control master (as in the traliers), while on higher difficulties the role changes completely without a true motivation behind the change.

You can't use Disruptor Ammo to great effect against krogan, nor use a Pistol to snipe.  These are limitations in the game mechanics.


These are limitations that are true in every difficulty and are limitations that don't change the SCOPE of the skill or weapon. You know that a pistol cannot snipe, as you know what Disruptor Ammo serves for, for what is good and for what it is not so. For biotics this is different because the cause that changes their behaviour is EXTERNAL, it is not inherent in the scope of the skills. There's a lot of difference between the two.

The right example (as I've already told you) would be if pistols at higher difficulties couldn't work on armored opponents. This would be an EXTERNAL imposition not inherent in the pistol's scope, as it happens for biotics.

#1202
imemoria

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adepts have a really bad feeling in harder difficulties now, spamming WARPWARPWARP and 80% of their abilities unusable until the last 20% lifespan of an enemy.

Modifié par imemoria, 05 février 2010 - 01:02 .


#1203
DominionOvrU

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I think one way to avoid the feeling of being less than useful as an Adept at higher difficulties could have been accomplished without making the class game breaking at lower difficulties, and that is if enemies where scaled differently at higher diffuclties.  What I mean is dont change the defensive properties of a given enemy at higher difficulties.  Don't give a Husk armor, instead raise their health.  Then the same abilities that where usefull at lower difficulties are still usefull at higher difficulties while not making that class a game breaking god at lower difficulties.

I have only played my Adept on Veteran, but I know I would be frustrated if he turned into the equivalent of a field general dictating 90% of the battle through only my squadmates abilites because none of mine worked.

Lets be honest, if Biotics worked on everything, why would anybody play any other class? Think about it.

Modifié par DominionOvrU, 05 février 2010 - 04:34 .


#1204
ReadingRambo220

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Biotics aren't as powerful as they were in ME 1, but i still find them useful.. A krogan or FENRIS mech whittled down to their red bar is still very dangerous up close, which is a perfect moment to send them flying.







In a side note, I've always thought biotics were the secret weapon versus the Reapers.. IE, they are a variable they have never encountered and don't quite know how to deal with them. I have no proof that earlier space-faring races didn't have the powers as I can't really find anything to that effect in the Codex

#1205
Flash_in_the_flesh

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GreyPouponWarden wrote...

In a side note, I've always thought biotics were the secret weapon versus the Reapers.. IE, they are a variable they have never encountered and don't quite know how to deal with them. I have no proof that earlier space-faring races didn't have the powers as I can't really find anything to that effect in the Codex


Benezia and asari commandos failed.

#1206
Grumpy Old Wizard

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GreyPouponWarden wrote...

Biotics aren't as powerful as they were in ME 1, but i still find them useful.. A krogan or FENRIS mech whittled down to their red bar is still very dangerous up close, which is a perfect moment to send them flying.


Yeah, you are right. An adept's biotics are just useless for 90% of the battle, except for the warp spam.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 05 février 2010 - 05:26 .


#1207
matt654321

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I suggested it in another thread, there are two possible options for fixing biotics. Either one or both could be implemented and fix adepts without creating balance issues.



1.) Have biotics work on defended enemies, but to a lesser effect (rather than complete negation, have it do half of its duration or something).



2.) Have certain powers work on certain defenses. Pull could work on armor, shockwave could work on shields, etc.

#1208
SonsofNorthWind

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themaxzero wrote...

Shockwave falls away but Singularity and (apparently Throw) works.

"In Mass Effect 2 no one is better at controling the battlefield than
an adept and no one is better at killing enemies without firing a
shot".


Is 100% true ESPECIALLY on Insanity.


Nope.   

Sentinels are better at killing without firing a shot, as they have Power Armor upgrade so their Warp does more damage. 

Engineers are better at controlling the battlefield, as non-Praetorian enemies always deal with an attacking Combat Drone before returning their attentions to other targets.  Being able to reliably remove the most dangerous opponent from combat, using a power with extremely short cooldown, and either plink away with Attack Drone or explode with Explosive Drone while shooting your chosen enemy in the back, is better control than the Adept ever gets.   Try it on a Scion, YMIR, or Harbinger to see what you're missing.

Modifié par SonsofNorthWind, 05 février 2010 - 06:25 .


#1209
Kroniker81

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My, what a thread. The OP contains a very valid complain and all you see are mainly people not getting the point and arguing using hyperboles.

The greatest fallacy I see is the claim that Adepts are gods in ME1 and this is supposedly some sort of reason for weakening the Adept to the point of partial impotence regarding his main function,which is actually just a really bad argument.
Sorry, but I played 4 classes in ME 1 nearly through and my Infiltrator and my Soldier easily beat my Adept in terms kill speed and overall survivability which leaves CC only for him. Additionally this is a single player game so the overall class balance isn't that much of an issue as long as you can experience the class like it is presented by the developers even though I agree that Engineers are a bit weak but guess what they still play and feel like their class descritpion say. This is not the case for the Adept and Vanguard in ME 2 imho.

Back to the Adept. A real Adept's first priority in Me 1 is:
How can I CC my opponets most efficiently so that my team mates eat as few damage as possible and give them as many free shots as possible.
Even Tali did more kills in ME 1 than my Adept thanks to Shotguns and Master Carnage.
Not only does ME 1 advertise that but it actually let you play like a CC master and it really gave you a satisfying feeling that you control the battle field for real and that you have a really important role which others cannot provide to the same degree as you can.
The ME 2 trailer promised that this feeling would persist and even enhanced but in higher in ME 2 difficulties it's actually the opposite and you are reduced to a second rate soldier with a couple of gimmicks and 1-2 decent skills.

For the record in ME 1the only seemingly overpowerd ability is the Stasis Mastery which Bastion provides and actually it was only overpowered because the designers forgot to give Saren some resistances against it at the end which trivialized the end fight. Otherwise you were able to kill one enemy safely every ~30 seconds. Big deal since Soldiers and Infiltrators are better at that with Master Assasination at much longer and safer ranges.

Now ME 2 denies my advertised main funtion about 70% of my playtime in most combats on higher difficulties and reduce me to a second rate soldier with less survivability actually and my class defining skills detoriated to fancy 'Finish Him!' moves. If I wanted to play Mortal Combat then I'd actually buy that game.
Additionally it totally breaks lore from the first part and it is never explained why most biotic abilites suddenly stop working against shielded and/or armored targets.

For all the nay sayers imagine that you cannot use your class defining abilities like Cloak or Slow Motion unless the opponents have ~ 20%-10% of their complete effective HP left or that your Soldier for example cannot use his Sniper Rifle until Armor and Shields are down or his Assault Rifle only damages armor. How would you like that?

I agree that AI Hacking suffers too from  that stupid restriction as well and it doesn't make sense but this is a thread about the Adept not the Engineer. If you have gripes about another class please go ahead and make a thread about it this is the wrong place for it.

By the way the shared cooldowns system is stupid imho. Normally you will use 1-2 abilites only since you always have your full pool of abilites at any given situation. In a way ME 1 offered more tactical depths than ME 2 does with it's streamlined or rather dumbed down skill systems albeit reducing the ranks per Skill from 12 to 4 is actually nice but reducing overall available skills per class dumb the game down uneccesarily.
And yes I did use all of my skills in ME 1 and I would have loved to see 1-2 more skills per class in Me 2 not the opposite which is a step back imo.

By the way the complaint isn't about tactics and accusing us of not being able to utilize our team or suck at tactis is a really weak ad hominem and simply illustrates that some people of the other faction argue on a really thin basis. This game isn't so complex that 'skill' is a major issue in the game. I am sure any avarage gamer with some years of experience can beat the game with any class at least in hardcore or even insanity with a couple of reloads. The major question is do I experience the the class in this game like it was advertised and in the canon of the original game.

At least the PC gamers can modify an *.ini file so that they can actually enjoy the Adept as he is supposed to be: master of controlling. I feel for the X-Box gamers.

Ah I nearly forgot the most stupid argument: Biotics save ammunition. Sorry, but what kind of crap is that? It's actually a big step backwards that they turned the interesting heat management from ME 1 to a simple and less advanced generic ammunition system instead of improving on that.
And as far as I recall no one told me that Adepts excell at saving ammunition and I can imagine that most would have been unthrilled to play that class if it would have been advertised as such.
/yawn

Modifié par Kroniker81, 05 février 2010 - 06:46 .


#1210
rmp

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Nice post. To sum up, ME2 should have been ME1 with new story and characters and some improvements. Instead they made a bunch of really stupid changes to combat design and classes. I hate the thermal clips, global cooldown, and powers that can only be used once you don't need them anymore. Like seriously, why the hell should armor prevent a something like a Pull?

Modifié par rmp, 05 février 2010 - 06:32 .


#1211
Kroniker81

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Do not even get me started about that.
Instead of working on the critics about some parts of Me 1 like the clunky inventory system or the sterile environment which you explore with the mako Bioware simply and completely threw these out of the window or in other words they weasled out of the problems really cheaply instead of adressing them properly.
Conceptually the Mako missions were good just badly implemented or let's rather say it felt like they were in an early alpha phase for that but it had great potential. Now the new scanning of planets are simply mind numbing even compared to the old Mako missions and I enjoy being able to do some missions outside of the main mission for real.
The class system was well done and there was no need of such a great overhaul.
Weapon mechanics were cool and felt advanced compared to the standard ammunition system which most games provide. They could have improved it instead of throwing it overboard.
Instead of fine tuning the problematic areas of ME 1 for ME 2 they took the great cleaver and butchered it partly imho.

Modifié par Kroniker81, 05 février 2010 - 07:11 .


#1212
themaxzero

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Kroniker81 wrote...

My, what a thread. The OP contains a very valid complain and all you see are mainly people not getting the point and arguing using hyperboles.

The greatest fallacy I see is the claim that Adepts are gods in ME1 and this is supposedly some sort of reason for weakening the Adept to the point of partial impotence regarding his main function,which is actually just a really bad argument.
Sorry, but I played 4 classes in ME 1 nearly through and my Infiltrator and my Soldier easily beat my Adept in terms kill speed and overall survivability which leaves CC only for him. Additionally this is a single player game so the overall class balance isn't that much of an issue as long as you can experience the class like it is presented by the developers even though I agree that Engineers are a bit weak but guess what they still play and feel like their class descritpion say. This is not the case for the Adept and Vanguard in ME 2 imho.

Back to the Adept. A real Adept's first priority in Me 1 is:
How can I CC my opponets most efficiently so that my team mates eat as few damage as possible and give them as many free shots as possible.
Even Tali did more kills in ME 1 than my Adept thanks to Shotguns and Master Carnage.
Not only does ME 1 advertise that but it actually let you play like a CC master and it really gave you a satisfying feeling that you control the battle field for real and that you have a really important role which others cannot provide to the same degree as you can.
The ME 2 trailer promised that this feeling would persist and even enhanced but in higher in ME 2 difficulties it's actually the opposite and you are reduced to a second rate soldier with a couple of gimmicks and 1-2 decent skills.

For the record in ME 1the only seemingly overpowerd ability is the Stasis Mastery which Bastion provides and actually it was only overpowered because the designers forgot to give Saren some resistances against it at the end which trivialized the end fight. Otherwise you were able to kill one enemy safely every ~30 seconds. Big deal since Soldiers and Infiltrators are better at that with Master Assasination at much longer and safer ranges.

Now ME 2 denies my advertised main funtion about 70% of my playtime in most combats on higher difficulties and reduce me to a second rate soldier with less survivability actually and my class defining skills detoriated to fancy 'Finish Him!' moves. If I wanted to play Mortal Combat then I'd actually buy that game.
Additionally it totally breaks lore from the first part and it is never explained why most biotic abilites suddenly stop working against shielded and/or armored targets.

For all the nay sayers imagine that you cannot use your class defining abilities like Cloak or Slow Motion unless the opponents have ~ 20%-10% of their complete effective HP left or that your Soldier for example cannot use his Sniper Rifle until Armor and Shields are down or his Assault Rifle only damages armor. How would you like that?

I agree that AI Hacking suffers too from  that stupid restriction as well and it doesn't make sense but this is a thread about the Adept not the Engineer. If you have gripes about another class please go ahead and make a thread about it this is the wrong place for it.

By the way the shared cooldowns system is stupid imho. Normally you will use 1-2 abilites only since you always have your full pool of abilites at any given situation. In a way ME 1 offered more tactical depths than ME 2 does with it's streamlined or rather dumbed down skill systems albeit reducing the ranks per Skill from 12 to 4 is actually nice but reducing overall available skills per class dumb the game down uneccesarily.
And yes I did use all of my skills in ME 1 and I would have loved to see 1-2 more skills per class in Me 2 not the opposite which is a step back imo.

By the way the complaint isn't about tactics and accusing us of not being able to utilize our team or suck at tactis is a really weak ad hominem and simply illustrates that some people of the other faction argue on a really thin basis. This game isn't so complex that 'skill' is a major issue in the game. I am sure any avarage gamer with some years of experience can beat the game with any class at least in hardcore or even insanity with a couple of reloads. The major question is do I experience the the class in this game like it was advertised and in the canon of the original game.

At least the PC gamers can modify an *.ini file so that they can actually enjoy the Adept as he is supposed to be: master of controlling. I feel for the X-Box gamers.

Ah I nearly forgot the most stupid argument: Biotics save ammunition. Sorry, but what kind of crap is that? It's actually a big step backwards that they turned the interesting heat management from ME 1 to a simple and less advanced generic ammunition system instead of improving on that.
And as far as I recall no one told me that Adepts excell at saving ammunition and I can imagine that most would have been unthrilled to play that class if it would have been advertised as such.
/yawn


/yawn indeed thanks for seeing only what you wanted to see.

If it sucks so much edit your .ini and move on.

Not going to bother trying to reply to the post since every single issue you have brought up has already been discussed. If you want to discuss then read the thread, people don't need a summary.

Modifié par themaxzero, 05 février 2010 - 07:23 .


#1213
Flash_in_the_flesh

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Why so offensive themaxzero?

Everything about adept was already discussed in this thread and whatever we say some will love new gimped adept, others won't. You don't see a reason to discuss it any further? Then don't.

#1214
Kroniker81

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themaxzero wrote...
/yawn indeed thanks for seeing only what you wanted to see.

If it sucks so much edit your .ini and move on.

Not going to bother trying to reply to the post since every single issue you have brought up has already been discussed. If you want to discuss then read the thread, people don't need a summary.


You aren't going to bother since you haven't been able to pull out some solid arguments the entire time anyway. Not that I care and I already stated that I am modifying my *.ini but maybe you missed the point that X-Box users do not have the same luxury. Not that I am surprised by that.
One has to wonder why you even comment my post with such meaningless drivel if you do not want to reply properly in the first place.

Modifié par Kroniker81, 05 février 2010 - 09:02 .


#1215
matt654321

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I think most of the changes in me2 were for the best. Much more gameplay, less sifting through menus. However, their handling of biotics was a bit off, IMO, taking away their core gameplay feature/attractiveness on harder difficulties.

#1216
Kroniker81

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matt654321 wrote...

I think most of the changes in me2 were for the best. Much more gameplay, less sifting through menus. However, their handling of biotics was a bit off, IMO, taking away their core gameplay feature/attractiveness on harder difficulties.


Which changes do you mean exactly?

#1217
Beefmachine

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I think that also having biotics disabled on the higher difficulty breaks the lore completely because how in the world in the first game can you own people with SHIELDS AND ARMOR with biotics but now all of sudden you can't?



I think the only thing that should disable powers is a BARRIER because it would be attuned to nullify biotics. Armor should nullify bullets. Shields should be a mix between Barrier / armor not nullifying but lowering the effectiveness greatly of both types of dmg. this would be balanced and make sense and also encourage use of party play without being a sitting duck as an adept.

#1218
rmp

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Is Normal difficulty supposed to let me target any enemy, regardless of his defenses, with any biotic power? I'm playing on normal and there are a bunch of abilities that are disabled unless the enemy's shields and armor are gone, Shockwave for sure, plus Pull I'm pretty sure.

Modifié par rmp, 05 février 2010 - 10:43 .


#1219
matt654321

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Kroniker81 wrote...

matt654321 wrote...

I think most of the changes in me2 were for the best. Much more gameplay, less sifting through menus. However, their handling of biotics was a bit off, IMO, taking away their core gameplay feature/attractiveness on harder difficulties.


Which changes do you mean exactly?


I said which changes in the post. Read.

#1220
Flash_in_the_flesh

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Barrier is a biotic protection, it's a different story.
Shields are kinetic barriers. Everything that doesn't have high enough velocity isn't stopped by shields. Melee attacks work, so should pull, singularity and shockwave. We could debate about throw but still, kinetic in shield's description implies stopping material objects not energy, like biotics.

rmp wrote...

Is Normal difficulty supposed to let me
target any enemy, regardless of his defenses, with any biotic power?
I'm playing on normal and there are a bunch of abilities that are
disabled unless the enemy's shields and armor are gone, Shockwave for
sure, plus Pull I'm pretty sure.


No. On lower difficulties shields also stop biotics but on normal only special types of enemies have shields. Most enemies are unprotected.

Modifié par Flash_in_the_flesh, 05 février 2010 - 10:49 .


#1221
Schneidend

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Kinetic barriers are still physical forces. They create mass effect fields. When two forces collide, there is invariably a loss of energy. It's harder to throw somebody off their feet with kinetic force when they have a portable generator that creates an opposite kinetic force. A "shield" and a "throw" are both mass effect fields, and thus they can most certainly affect one another.

#1222
Flash_in_the_flesh

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Throw remains debatable. Singularity, shockwave and pull are not because they are not thrown at high speed directly at enemy shields. The target is often ground below or near the enemy.

#1223
matt654321

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Schneidend wrote...

Kinetic barriers are still physical forces. They create mass effect fields. When two forces collide, there is invariably a loss of energy. It's harder to throw somebody off their feet with kinetic force when they have a portable generator that creates an opposite kinetic force. A "shield" and a "throw" are both mass effect fields, and thus they can most certainly affect one another.


Read the codex entry on shields again. Shields only activate when an object is travelling at a certain velocity. That way you don't send your chair flying across the room when you try to sit down. It's also why punches work normally. Throw would be in the same category of a low velocity but high force object that wouldn't activate shields.

#1224
Hoffburger

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matt654321 wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

Kinetic barriers are still physical forces. They create mass effect fields. When two forces collide, there is invariably a loss of energy. It's harder to throw somebody off their feet with kinetic force when they have a portable generator that creates an opposite kinetic force. A "shield" and a "throw" are both mass effect fields, and thus they can most certainly affect one another.


Read the codex entry on shields again. Shields only activate when an object is travelling at a certain velocity. That way you don't send your chair flying across the room when you try to sit down. It's also why punches work normally. Throw would be in the same category of a low velocity but high force object that wouldn't activate shields.


That doesn't make any logical sense. If it only activates when an object is moving quickly this implies that it is based off of some sort of Kinetic Energy threshold. Kinetic Energy = .5*mass*velocity^2. Force is mass*acceleration, so just because Throw has a high Force value doesn't mean it has a high Kinetic Energy.

#1225
SDima

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For those that want an easy fix, open up "Coalesced.ini", look for "bShieldsBlockPowers=true" change true to false and edit one of the floats to a digit shorter one i.e. "0.75f" to "0.8f". Use Notepad++ to edit this and don't forget to backup before editing the file, its important and can crash your game if edited incorrectly. Google for more info on this.

P.S. Throw becomes kindof overpowered though..

Modifié par SDima, 06 février 2010 - 12:17 .