1428 réponses à ce sujet

[Flash_in_the_flesh]

Hoffburger wrote...

That doesn't make any logical sense.

It does have sense if the only threshold is velocity, not kinetic energy. I bet krogan punch is pretty nasty, yet that's a low velocity attack thus shields don't stop it. It's not about energy but speed alone. If shielded creature fall from height, shield won't activate on impact. Biotic Throw projectile is as fast as thrown rock and that's pretty slow for a shield to react.

Modifié par Flash_in_the_flesh, 06 février 2010 - 12:42 .

[Beefmachine]

and still it doesn't make sense this isn't a sequel this is an entirely new game... alternate universe even... because how can you own people with shields and armor in me1 and not in me2... technological advancements... i'll buy that but biotics have improved their powers over time as well im sure...

[Hoffburger]

Flash_in_the_flesh wrote...

Hoffburger wrote...

That doesn't make any logical sense.

It does have sense if the only threshold is velocity, not kinetic energy. I bet krogan punch is pretty nasty, yet that's a low velocity attack thus shields don't stop it. It's not about energy but speed alone. If shielded creature fall from height, shield won't activate on impact. Biotic Throw projectile is as fast as thrown rock and that's pretty slow for a shield to react.

Exactly, it depends on velocity which means it depends on Kinetic Energy. Since Kinetic Energy has the velocity squared in its calculation it is greatly affected by it while things like Momentum aren't. Force doesn't have anything to do with velocity (well unless you count it being affected by the derivative of velocity). So for there to be any force there has to be an acceleration. This can be seen because biotics accelerate quite slowly once they reach the target. This means that they must have a fairly high mass, they also are moving relatively slow compared to projectiles fired from weapons so they probably have fairly low Kinetic Energy. So the argument that shields should stop them because they stop high KE rounds fired from weapons isn't logical.

Since every action has an equal and opposite reaction the only explanation for biotics not working on defenses would be that defenses add a very large amount of mass to the enemy.

Not really on topic, but an interesting thing to think about.


Just to reiterate again, playing Insanity as an Adept with a modified .ini feels exactly like it should have been. It's nowhere near overpowered and the people who say it is haven't played an Infiltrator or Soldier for comparison on Insanity. It's still slightly slower in killing, but not by much. It's just incredibly fun and makes the Adept feel like an Adept. The only advice I can give is that you should limit yourself by not abusing Lift/Throw/Singularity/Shockwave on bosses, because that's the only thing that I feel is overpowered.

So for you PC users, modify your .ini file, there is no reason to feel like you are cheating because Infiltrators and Soldiers will still have an easier and faster time with Insanity. For xbox users, I kinda feel bad, but without starting a war and beating a dead horse, I don't like what consoles are doing to PC gaming. So I feel bad for you but I'm also glad that PC users still get all the mods and such that let PC gamers feel like PC gamers.

[ItsFreakinJesus]

Beefmachine wrote...

and still it doesn't make sense this isn't a sequel this is an entirely new game... alternate universe even... because how can you own people with shields and armor in me1 and not in me2... technological advancements... i'll buy that but biotics have improved their powers over time as well im sure...

It's a gameplay mechanic.

Not everything has to do with the story proper.  It was done to balance the gameplay and have people adopt different methods to take down different opponents. 

[Roxlimn]

 AlphaJarmel:

If you have numerical references on Adept assessment, I'd like to see it.  That'd be interesting.

Also, some class has to be top dog at Insanity.  It's a function of having classes that play differently.  The game is easy enough that I don't see that as much of an issue.  You CAN finish the game on Insanity without using ANY powers or ANY guns outside of Pistol, Heavy Weapon, Unity, and Submachine Gun.  Anything other than that is just flavor.

What's the issue if it takes a little more tactical application to finish an encounter en masse with Pull Field?  It's not that hard - at least on Hardcore, anyway.

Amioran:

The debate on which skill is best was begun by you, not by me. I am talking about a total different thing, you sidestepped.

Sorry, I was not aware when that happened.  What point, exactly, did I sidestep?

"On some missions", that's the word. It is not "on every mission" and "on every encounter" as for Biotics, apart the fact that anyway what you say it's not exact since Disruptor Ammo has other functions apart mech destroying, one of them bringing shield down, the other overloading weapons, so it is always useful.

But again, this is another thing altogheter, we are not talking about which skill is better here. We are talking about the fact that for a game imposition biotics don't work as they should on higher difficulties.

As far as I can tell, Disruptor Ammo doesn't overheat weapons when the enemy still has defenses (just as Cryo Ammo doesn't freeze while the enemy still has defenses) and in any case, it doesn't stop krogan or varen or klixen from attacking.  Husks, too.

It's not true that in every encounter, Biotics are unusable.  You chose not to use them.  That's different.  The majority of enemies in the game eventually devolve to Health.  This Health is nontrivial, as I've referred.  You cannot kill the entire health of a mook with just one application of Heavy Warp and 2 seconds of submachine gunfire.  This is at Hardcore.  On Insanity, this is larger.

According to the ini file, the enemy shield bonus at Hardcore is 75.0f.  On Insanity, this is 150.0f  The bonus to Shields from normal is twice at Insanity as it is at Hardcore, but the actual Shield value is not twice - only the bonus is doubled.

In comparison, the health multipler for health at Hardcore ranges from 1.55 to 1.75, while all Health multipliers at Insanity are 1.975  Assuming that the Normal value is 1, the extra health bonus at Insanity ranges from somewhat under 200% (similar to Shields) and about 133%.  30% is an underestimation of the Health bonus.

Pull and Throw ARE crowd controlling skills. Their purpose is NOT to kill but to CONTROL enemies. Naturally I can see why you can say a thing as this in ME2 (since they actually become finishing moves skills, instead of what they should do), but their true use is as a control mean.

Not true for any difficulty level, and for any version of ME.  Their purpose in ME1 was so you can shut down an entire room, essentially winning an encounter in one move.  That is a kill power.  On lower difficulties, Pull allows you to strip cover and attack power from an enemy, which is essential to killing it.  That is also a kill power.

Compare to D&D's Hold Person 3rd edition, which is a kill power.   It's supposed to take out an enemy for a few turns while you take care of other foes, but what it was actually used for was to set up the Coup de Grace attack, killing the targeted enemy in one move.

On lower difficulties of ME2, this does not change.  You Throw or Pull the enemy out of cover, then he gets killed because he can't retaliate and has no cover defense.  If you're a Biotic, you can finish an entire bunch of mooks by using Pull Field, and then exploding the center guy with Warp thereafter.  That is not a control combo.  That is a mass-kill combo.

The only thing that changes at Hardcore is that you have to apply two applications of Defense-stripping powers before you can apply the kill powers.

ME2 does not have true control powers like Stasis.

The point is not if you HAVE to use them or not. The point is that also if you want you CANNOT. You can do it only when certain conditions are met, and these conditions force you to use the skills in a certain way only and change their former use altogheter.

That depends on how you were using them on lower difficulties.  The game isn't forcing you to use Pull in ways that you didn't do before.  All it's asking is that you apply a few more powers or gunfire before you use Pull.

You can play an Adept as you like to, this doesn't change the FACT that the Adept is a crowd control class as clearly stated in the trailer of the class and its description. You can naturallly also play a Wizard in a normal RPG as a crossbow spammer, but this would not change the fact that your role would be to control the battlefield instead of doing it.

You see, you have actually demonstrated yourself that biotics powers have changed their real scope, whithout either understanding it. The fact that you say that Pull and Throw are not crowd control skills is the proof that you are now forced to use them in another way.

I did not use Singularity as a crowd control power in ME1.  In every instance that I used it, few enemies survived the power's duration, especially at higher levels.  Lift was similar.  I Lifted it, then I killed it.  What I saw in the trailer was similar.  The Adept Pulled enemies, then his allies and he killed them.  In the context of higher difficulty levels in ME2, you can STILL use Pull, the Throw for the kill.  It's usually better to use Warp as the follow-up power if you have a bunch of grouped enemies, but Throw is doable.  All you need is to use powers to strip defenses first.

It is not my fault nor a fault of the game if you choose not to use Pull, but instead use Warp for stripping defenses.  An Adept does not need to use guns to finish off his opponents.  Why would you (or others) choose to do so?  You can, but you are not so constrained.  You can use guns to strip defenses (or ally powers) then use Pull-Throw or Pull-Warp, allowing you to turn to the next enemy quickly.  This is very effective when you alternate between Squad Disruptor or Squad AP (using allies, of course) for defense stripping.  Disruptor ammo to strip Shields, then Pull-Warp for the finisher.

On lower levels, you don't even need to do that.  You can go for the finishing move immediately on encounter.  This means that on Normal, an Adept isn't only capable of killing enemies without firing a shot - it means he can clear entire sections of enemies while barely taking a breather from using Storm to run from room to room.  On Hardcore, the only additional requirement is that you take Garrus and Miranda for the double Area Overload, or Jacob for Pull/Inciendary on armor-heavy sections.

Shame that how the game works is not uniformed between difficulties. What you say would be true if all the game and all difficulties would play the same but alas that's not so. While the imposition it's still there the difference is in the diffusion and the scope of the same, and this makes Adepts in particular behave completely differently changing difficulty in the game. This is not a thing that happens usually in a game. If you use a mage in DA:O on normal difficulty and you use him on Insanity the experience and how spells works doesn't change. The difficulty increases but the role remains intact. This is not true for ME2.

I've played a mage on DAO.  The behavior between difficulty levels is absolutely not the same.  On lower difficulty levels, there is less Friendly Fire.  On the lowest difficulty setting, there's none at all.  This means that you can spam Flame Blast and Shock essentially without regard for team mates, and the effect of the two used consecutively is devastating on most foes on these settings.

As you climb difficulty settings, foes do more damage, last longer, and your own spells start to affect your team.  On Hard, Shock and Flame Blast are much, much harder to use - so much, in fact, that the insta-killing CoC-Earth Fist combo becomes better.  Moreover, with reduced resistances at higher levels, the value of something like Wade's Armor becomes more palpable.

Few games play the same on all difficulty levels.  Indeed, if all difficulty levels played exactly the same and demanded the same skill from players, what would be the point?

These are limitations that are true in every difficulty and are limitations that don't change the SCOPE of the skill or weapon. You know that a pistol cannot snipe, as you know what Disruptor Ammo serves for, for what is good and for what it is not so. For biotics this is different because the cause that changes their behaviour is EXTERNAL, it is not inherent in the scope of the skills. There's a lot of difference between the two.

The right example (as I've already told you) would be if pistols at higher difficulties couldn't work on armored opponents. This would be an EXTERNAL imposition not inherent in the pistol's scope, as it happens for biotics.

Well, okay, you have a point there.  I don't agree that Biotics should function the same at every difficulty level.  Guns and gun classes don't behave that way, either.  You can't use a Pistol to snipe at Normal, but the Pistol is powerful enough that you can use it as a main weapon with any class for the entire game and win handily.  This is less true at higher difficulty levels as higher Health and Shields begins to impose a restriction on how much you can use any given weapon.

I don't run out of ammo on Normal.  I do on Hardcore.  This means that as a Soldier, I can, more or less, play the entire game on Normal, never shifting from just using the Vindicator Rifle.  On Hardcore, I have to conserve ammo when I can so that I don't run out at inopportune times.  Sometimes, I actually kinda wish that the Soldier had access to the Tempest, even though the Geth Pulse Rifle is a reasonable facsimile of it.

Gringbot:

Refer to imemoria's post.  Since he is talking about higher difficulties (plural), he must mean at least Hardcore and Insanity.  There's one post that asserts something I've been contesting.  I'll refer more posts to you as I see them.  DominionOvrU has similar thoughts.  This is not something that's isolated, as you can see.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 06 février 2010 - 05:58 .

[Kroniker81]

[quote]

Pull and Throw ARE crowd controlling skills. Their purpose is NOT to kill but to CONTROL enemies. Naturally I can see why you can say a thing as this in ME2 (since they actually become finishing moves skills, instead of what they should do), but their true use is as a control mean.
[quote]

Not true for any difficulty level, and for any version of ME.  Their purpose in ME1 was so you can shut down an entire room, essentially winning an encounter in one move.  That is a kill power.  On lower difficulties, Pull allows you to strip cover and attack power from an enemy, which is essential to killing it.  That is also a kill power.[/quote][/quote]

Erm, that is exactly is the purpose of CC. Remember the 'Control the battle field' quote? And what else schould CC do?

[quote]Compare to D&D's Hold Person 3rd edition, which is a kill power.   It's supposed to take out an enemy for a few turns while you take care of other foes, but what it was actually used for was to set up the Coup de Grace attack, killing the targeted enemy in one move.[/quote]

Wow, so you always had a mage/thief with you or had a mage paired with a thief or a mage with sneak attack and you kill one enemy with a 3rd level slot and a thief ability. So you have a 2v1 situation in the majority of time and your game master isn't smart enough to let the guy have partners who could easily prevent that. Wow, impressive.

[quote]On lower difficulties of ME2, this does not change.  You Throw or Pull the enemy out of cover, then he gets killed because he can't retaliate and has no cover defense.  If you're a Biotic, you can finish an entire bunch of mooks by using Pull Field, and then exploding the center guy with Warp thereafter.  That is not a control combo.  That is a mass-kill combo.[/quote]

Throw and Pull themselves do neglebile damage. That's what you call CC. And the AoE of is far from sufficient to easily clear a room with just one combo. Speaking of hyperboles again.

[quote]The only thing that changes at Hardcore is that you have to apply two applications of Defense-stripping powers before you can apply the kill powers.[/quote]

No you cannot use your class defining skills until the battle is won anyway. You cannot control anything really. It's not even remotely comparable to ME 1. Heck they could have simply made resistances like in ME 1. Ever tried to lift a Geth Collossus or those assualt droids in the Luna mission or fliers in general like Saren on a Glider? And do not even think about 'Yeah but Stasis+Bastion!' since a lot of Adepts still play as Nemesis.
Waste of animations to use anything but Warp and Barrier in those cases but at least I can understand why. Those enemies could have been designed to have enough mass to prevent the adept to use the power really well. Watch Geth Armatures when Lift is used on them. They float only a second or so than fall down. All in all you buy your team ~3 seconds with a 30 second CD. How the hell is that overpowered? Throw doesn't even really work and Singularity is equally weak but you could still use it. That were the situations where Tali and Engineer Shepards had a very disticntive advantage and that was ok since I tend to take care of the other enemies while they took care of those. Now that was actually fun.
It's ok when a certain class is stronger against certain enemies compared to another class but it is a totally different thing if I am reduced to a second rate soldier until about 70% of the fight is over regardless of enemy type.

[quote]ME2 does not have true control powers like Stasis.[/quote]

Stasis was pretty medicore unless you went for Bastion. Why Lift and Throw are not CC isbeyond me. It's just rubbish. They do not deal a lot of damage and even with maxed out Bastion and a good biotic amp you still had to wait ~20 seconds on CD.

[quote]
The point is not if you HAVE to use them or not. The point is that also if you want you CANNOT. You can do it only when certain conditions are met, and these conditions force you to use the skills in a certain way only and change their former use altogheter.[/quote]

No it forces me to be a second rate soldier and let my team mates do the majority of the actual combat.


[quote]That depends on how you were using them on lower difficulties.  The game isn't forcing you to use Pull in ways that you didn't do before.  All it's asking is that you apply a few more powers or gunfire before you use Pull.[/quote]
Just that the combat is over in the majority of cases as has been stated countless of times.

[quote]
You can play an Adept as you like to, this doesn't change the FACT that the Adept is a crowd control class as clearly stated in the trailer of the class and its description. You can naturallly also play a Wizard in a normal RPG as a crossbow spammer, but this would not change the fact that your role would be to control the battlefield instead of doing it.

You see, you have actually demonstrated yourself that biotics powers have changed their real scope, whithout either understanding it. The fact that you say that Pull and Throw are not crowd control skills is the proof that you are now forced to use them in another way.
[quote]

I did not use Singularity as a crowd control power in ME1.  In every instance that I used it, few enemies survived the power's duration, especially at higher levels.  Lift was similar.  I Lifted it, then I killed it.  What I saw in the trailer was similar.  The Adept Pulled enemies, then his allies and he killed them.  In the context of higher difficulty levels in ME2, you can STILL use Pull, the Throw for the kill.  It's usually better to use Warp as the follow-up power if you have a bunch of grouped enemies, but Throw is doable.  All you need is to use powers to strip defenses first.[/quote][/quote]

Erm, Singularity itself didn't do that much damage. Ashley with Master Rapid Fire or Wrex with Master Carnage get in much much more damage than any singularity can and even with a full bastion+ a good biotic amplifier the cooldown was long enough that you could setup one only in most fights and if the enemy was not coming through a narrow tunnel you rarely caught all.
And by the way try the Luna Mission with a Shepard Adept, Liara and Tali so you can see how awesome Lift and Singularity is against those assault and rocket robots. Not.

[quote]It is not my fault nor a fault of the game if you choose not to use Pull, but instead use Warp for stripping defenses.  An Adept does not need to use guns to finish off his opponents.  Why would you (or others) choose to do so?  You can, but you are not so constrained.  You can use guns to strip defenses (or ally powers) then use Pull-Throw or Pull-Warp, allowing you to turn to the next enemy quickly.  This is very effective when you alternate between Squad Disruptor or Squad AP (using allies, of course) for defense stripping.  Disruptor ammo to strip Shields, then Pull-Warp for the finisher.[/quote]

Did I miss something or didn't the trailer of Bioware claim that the Adept can defeat enemies without a single shot fired? Well technically true just boring to the max.
By the way we all know what we can do. Doesn't change the fact that biotics got castrated to a large degree.

[quote]On lower levels, you don't even need to do that.  You can go for the finishing move immediately on encounter.  This means that on Normal, an Adept isn't only capable of killing enemies without firing a shot - it means he can clear entire sections of enemies while barely taking a breather from using Storm to run from room to room.  On Hardcore, the only additional requirement is that you take Garrus and Miranda for the double Area Overload, or Jacob for Pull/Inciendary on armor-heavy sections.[/quote]

And still other classes kill faster. Adept just a bit safer albeit debatable if you compare any biotic skill with Cloak.

[quote]
Shame that how the game works is not uniformed between difficulties. What you say would be true if all the game and all difficulties would play the same but alas that's not so. While the imposition it's still there the difference is in the diffusion and the scope of the same, and this makes Adepts in particular behave completely differently changing difficulty in the game. This is not a thing that happens usually in a game. If you use a mage in DA:O on normal difficulty and you use him on Insanity the experience and how spells works doesn't change. The difficulty increases but the role remains intact. This is not true for ME2.
[quote]

I've played a mage on DAO.  The behavior between difficulty levels is absolutely not the same.  On lower difficulty levels, there is less Friendly Fire.  On the lowest difficulty setting, there's none at all.  This means that you can spam Flame Blast and Shock essentially without regard for team mates, and the effect of the two used consecutively is devastating on most foes on these settings.[/quote][/quote]

The Spell remains the same and affect the enemies just the same. You just cannot fire it blindly whenever you want to or even then you can still take a risk and hope that you will do more harm than good. In ME 2 you do not even have that option, you remain impotent or let us say very restricted until the battle is nearing the end.
All in all spells should behave the same in all difficulties though. Difficulty should increase through higher numbers of enemy, hitpoints, damage and hopefully even smarter AI.
Sadly smarter AI is rarely found on higher difficutlies regardless of game.

[quote]As you climb difficulty settings, foes do more damage, last longer, and your own spells start to affect your team.  On Hard, Shock and Flame Blast are much, much harder to use - so much, in fact, that the insta-killing CoC-Earth Fist combo becomes better.  Moreover, with reduced resistances at higher levels, the value of something like Wade's Armor becomes more palpable.

[quote]Few games play the same on all difficulty levels.  Indeed, if all difficulty levels played exactly the same and demanded the same skill from players, what would be the point?[/quote][/quote]

What is the point if your class becomes so restricted that the majority of the time you are very weak and only get full strength when the battle is won anyway? Why such a break in lore? Why such a steep break in class feel? ME 1 did preserve the class feel through all difficulties and Insanity still felt a lot harder than Veteran.

[quote]
These are limitations that are true in every difficulty and are limitations that don't change the SCOPE of the skill or weapon. You know that a pistol cannot snipe, as you know what Disruptor Ammo serves for, for what is good and for what it is not so. For biotics this is different because the cause that changes their behaviour is EXTERNAL, it is not inherent in the scope of the skills. There's a lot of difference between the two.

The right example (as I've already told you) would be if pistols at higher difficulties couldn't work on armored opponents. This would be an EXTERNAL imposition not inherent in the pistol's scope, as it happens for biotics.
[quote]

Well, okay, you have a point there.  I don't agree that Biotics should function the same at every difficulty level.  Guns and gun classes don't behave that way, either.  You can't use a Pistol to snipe at Normal, but the Pistol is powerful enough that you can use it as a main weapon with any class for the entire game and win handily.  This is less true at higher difficulty levels as higher Health and Shields begins to impose a restriction on how much you can use any given weapon.

I don't run out of ammo on Normal.  I do on Hardcore.  This means that as a Soldier, I can, more or less, play the entire game on Normal, never shifting from just using the Vindicator Rifle.  On Hardcore, I have to conserve ammo when I can so that I don't run out at inopportune times.  Sometimes, I actually kinda wish that the Soldier had access to the Tempest, even though the Geth Pulse Rifle is a reasonable facsimile of it.[/quote][/quote]

That simply means you have to play better or in other words you need better aiming skills at higher difficutlies but you can still use your guns the same way you could earlier just not as mindlessly. You can still kill enemies on your own and your Slow Motion power remains the same.
All you do have to care about is keeping an eye on ammo and choosing your weapons more wisely but overall you still play like a soldier.
To make an analogy you do not have to turn to the pistol exclusivley suddenly just because the enemy has biotic barriers on and it is the only weapon in your arsenal which can damage them and then turn to shootguns only because they are due to some arbitrary non explainable reason the only effective weapon against armor and yes that's how they restricted biotics.
Your Slow Motion power is not unusuable until the enemy is in pure health region just to give another example.

Modifié par Kroniker81, 06 février 2010 - 10:25 .

[imemoria]

ItsFreakinJesus wrote...

Beefmachine wrote...

and still it doesn't make sense this isn't a sequel this is an entirely new game... alternate universe even... because how can you own people with shields and armor in me1 and not in me2... technological advancements... i'll buy that but biotics have improved their powers over time as well im sure...

It's a gameplay mechanic.

Not everything has to do with the story proper.  It was done to balance the gameplay and have people adopt different methods to take down different opponents. 

how does the .ini mod affect the fight with thresher maw ? can you throw it ? too bad I have a 360...

[Kroniker81]

ItsFreakinJesus wrote...

Beefmachine wrote...

and still it doesn't make sense this isn't a sequel this is an entirely new game... alternate universe even... because how can you own people with shields and armor in me1 and not in me2... technological advancements... i'll buy that but biotics have improved their powers over time as well im sure...

It's a gameplay mechanic.

Not everything has to do with the story proper. It was done to balance the gameplay and have people adopt different methods to take down different opponents.

You would have had an argument if this was an MMO and if the Adept was grossly overpowered in ME 1. Too bad for you neither is the case.
And no, you do not adopt different methods of bringing down different enemies. You bring the same always thanks to GCD you are just more restricted to use certain powers over and over again which you would know if you read and comprehend the thread properly in the first place.
You'd use different skills if enemies would behave or rather react differently to certain but that is not the case. You will use a certain power to bring a certain defence down over and over. If you got Overload you will use it to strip away Shields always. There aren't alternatives which are superior even.

Modifié par Kroniker81, 06 février 2010 - 10:22 .

[Soruyao]

If my biotics worked on everything, I'd just throw all my enemies into space. XD



I've maxed out heavy throw at this point and it's just spectacular how far I can launch people. On one level, I threw a vorcha over a mountain in the distance. It was glorious.



The pull throw combo doesn't need to do any damage at all (although if you throw someone into a wall, it does a bunch of damage!), because you throw people out of the map and never have to deal with them again. (Though that backfires sometimes when something rolls down a hill or something and recovers behind me. XD)



According to my achievement information windows, I've used my warp on 10 enemies, and I just finished recruiting everyone. (It doesn't count using warp on bosses for the achievement )



I picked up the assault rifle to strip enemies of their shields faster and threw a lot of bugs off of things. The only deaths I had were scions and a single time getting caught by the harbingerball at a bad moment.



Singularity and lift are tied for my most used power. Throw is a little less used but is HIGHLY entertaining when I do use it. Warp is my second least used as I've only been using it on bosses. Shockwave is my least used ability. I've mostly just been using in places where I can't quite curve a traditional biotic.



I'm playing on insanity mode and I am using all of my abilities (well, besides the one everyone else spams and shockwave) and I am not struggling and I am having a blast.



Maybe people who aren't having fun spamming warp should try not spamming warp. Seriously, it's the most boring skill in the game. Maybe they should take a page from my book and just pretend they can't use it on non-bosses. (Miranda's warp is okay because that's all she does) They might find that their killing speed doesn't change much but that they are having more fun. If it works for me, there's no reason it can't work for someone else.



I think nerfing infiltrators and soldiers would be more helpful to game balance and fun across the board than buffing adepts would be, but that's another topic entirely.

[Flash_in_the_flesh]

imemoria wrote...

how does the .ini mod affect the fight with thresher maw ? can you throw it ? too bad I have a 360...

Big sized enemies aren't affected by CC skills even without the mod on normal difficulty.

[Flash_in_the_flesh]

Hoffburger wrote...

Exactly, it depends on velocity which means it depends on Kinetic Energy.

Velocity is used in Kinetic Energy equation but it doesn't mean that V = Ek. If only speed is measured to activate shields, projectile mass is irrelevant. Car speedometer doesn't measure energy, only the speed. Police speed guns only care about speed, not car mass. Same measurement can be used in armor shields.

[CRISIS1717]

Biotics are only good for enemies without defenses. On most enemies you can kill them just as fast by shooting them.

Why do you guys even play Adept? you're just making your char weaker and the special teammate biotics are better.

[kelsjet]

Soruyao wrote...
According to my achievement information windows, I've used my warp on 10 enemies, and I just finished recruiting everyone. (It doesn't count using warp on bosses for the achievement )

/facepalm

Warp Specialist – Warp the barriers of 25 enemies

The achievement doesn't count how many times you have used warp in total, just how many times your particular warp has destroyed the barriers (i.e. the biotic ability) of enemies.
I mean seriously, how utterly stupid do you have to be to not be able to read the ****ing description?

/sigh
I'm telling you, WoW and facebook have fried the brains of so many people that they cannot function on even the most basic of levels.

The rest of your post is such utter nonsense that I would rather drink broken glass then refute your bullsh!te point by point.

Jesus I really don't understand why there are so many ****ing trolls and retards in this thread that cannot understand such a simple thing.

On Insane Difficulty: Adepts cannot use a vast majority of their biotic powers. Not because they 'don't know how'. Not because they don't have 'skill'. Not because they are missing some critical piece of information that somehow all the morons like the fool I quoted seem to think they know.

No. Adepts cannot use the vast majority of their abilities on Insane mode because the ****ing game's mechanics prevent you from doing so.

Why is this fact so difficult for people to understand?

Jesus! There is over 500 people in this thread repeating the exact same statement I have just made for over 50 pages now and people still don't get it. Unbelievable!

It's like the entire world is telling you "You cannot light a match in space since there is no air because the laws of physics prevents it", and an entire death squad of morons are saying "LOLOLO U NUB U NED MOAR SKILZ TO LITE MATCH IN SPAZE LOLZ".

WoW and facebook. I called it. Utterly destroying peoples ability to think.

[Amioran]

[quote]Roxlimn wrote...

Sorry, I was not aware when that happened.  What point, exactly, did I sidestep?[/quote]

When the debate switched from the specific to the general.

[quote]
As far as I can tell, Disruptor Ammo doesn't overheat weapons when the enemy still has defenses (just as Cryo Ammo doesn't freeze while the enemy still has defenses) and in any case, it doesn't stop krogan or varen or klixen from attacking.  Husks, too.[/quote]

It shouldn't. Nothing wrong about that. Again: that is the scope of the skill, nothing more, nothing less. Nothing is subtracted, nothing is added. Perfectly fine.


[quote]It's not true that in every encounter, Biotics are unusable.  You chose not to use them.  That's different.  The majority of enemies in the game eventually devolve to Health.  This Health is nontrivial, as I've referred.  You cannot kill the entire health of a mook with just one application of Heavy Warp and 2 seconds of submachine gunfire.  This is at Hardcore.  On Insanity, this is larger.[/quote]

I don't chose to use them or not, neither you. The game force you to use them only at a certain point. This is an imposition. The limitation is not whitin the scope of the skill. The fact that you can use them doesn't mean that you can do that when you would like to, as it should be. When an enemy is at red health he is much more vulnerable than before. CC is good when you can remove high threat enemies from the battle, or the skills become only gimmick. Sure, it can be fun, but it is not necessary not really effective.

As I said this is a single player game so you can be as ineffective as you like just to use the skills you love. Nothing wrong about it. However this doesn't change the fact that Pull or Throw on ME2 on higher difficulties becomes gimmick skills; they serve no purpose whatsoever if not just to say "wow, I used them". They are highly ineffective and when you can use them they lose all their real theoric power.

[quote]According to the ini file, the enemy shield bonus at Hardcore is 75.0f.  On Insanity, this is 150.0f  The bonus to Shields from normal is twice at Insanity as it is at Hardcore, but the actual Shield value is not twice - only the bonus is doubled.

In comparison, the health multipler for health at Hardcore ranges from 1.55 to 1.75, while all Health multipliers at Insanity are 1.975  Assuming that the Normal value is 1, the extra health bonus at Insanity ranges from somewhat under 200% (similar to Shields) and about 133%.  30% is an underestimation of the Health bonus.[/quote]

All good an fine, shame that to bring shield and armor down the damage done is almost doubled than from red health to death. If an enemy has 100 hp in armor and 150 hp in health you need at last 300 damage to bring down armor and aout 100 damage to bring the enemy to death.

[quote]
Not true for any difficulty level, and for any version of ME.  Their purpose in ME1 was so you can shut down an entire room, essentially winning an encounter in one move.  That is a kill power.  On lower difficulties, Pull allows you to strip cover and attack power from an enemy, which is essential to killing it.  That is also a kill power.[/quote]

All skills are essientially used to kill in the end, but a control skill does it in another way. Don't use words to sidestep (again) the argument. I surely don't want to explain to you the role of a CC member of a party and the difference between a control spell and a killing one if you don't already know it. Suffice to say that also if the end of all skills is to ultimately kill the enemy, the difference lies in the way it is done and how it is done; in little words the difference lies in the middle.


[quote]Compare to D&D's Hold Person 3rd edition, which is a kill power.   It's supposed to take out an enemy for a few turns while you take care of other foes, but what it was actually used for was to set up the Coup de Grace attack, killing the targeted enemy in one move.[/quote]

Yet this doesn't change the fact that it is not you that are _actively_ killing; you are _controlling_ while another kills. Hold Person IS a CC spell, not an active damage (and so killing) one.


[quote]On lower difficulties of ME2, this does not change.  You Throw or Pull the enemy out of cover, then he gets killed because he can't retaliate and has no cover defense.  If you're a Biotic, you can finish an entire bunch of mooks by using Pull Field, and then exploding the center guy with Warp thereafter.  That is not a control combo.  That is a mass-kill combo.[/quote]

On lower difficulties all changes because you can use CC when you want it, that is the most important thing in a CC skill/spell. A limited CC skill is an ineffective (or high reduced in effectiveness) CC skill. The primary objectvie of controllng skills is to remove high treaths targets from the battle _as fast as you can_. As it works in ME2 is that before you can use the control skill the target becomes a lower threat one (so the control is no more needed if not just to do it) and the time when the control was really necessary is passed by a lot. It all becomes a gimmick and it loses its real scope.

As I said last time you can always find a way to use a skill if you so want, the problem is that the sope of the skill is changed and so it is the role of the class that uses it.

[quote]The only thing that changes at Hardcore is that you have to apply two applications of Defense-stripping powers before you can apply the kill powers.[/quote]
This alone changes completely the role of the class and the scope of the skill. The skills from controlling skills becomes just finishing moves on low threat targets, and the role of the Adept changes from Wizard to "Xbow spammer".


[quote]ME2 does not have true control powers like Stasis.[/quote]
If skills would work as they should you could still control a crowd of enemies with biotics. The shared cooldown (that it's another BAD thing in ME2) prevents a bit that, but it is still feasible.



[quote]That depends on how you were using them on lower difficulties.  The game isn't forcing you to use Pull in ways that you didn't do before.  All it's asking is that you apply a few more powers or gunfire before you use Pull.[/quote]
The game isn't forcing you to use Pull in ways you didn't before? Are you joking? The game tells me _when_ and _how_ I can use it, what there is more changing in a CC skills than these two parameters?

[quote]
It is not my fault nor a fault of the game if you choose not to use Pull, but instead use Warp for stripping defenses. [/quote]

It has nothing to do with being a "fault". It is only the most effective way of playing an Adept in higher difficulties since the role of CC skills is no more. You use them because you _have_ to use them, but they are no necessary nor needed and not effective because their primary objective is no more. There's no point on using a control skill in targets that are no more high treats.


[quote]On lower levels, you don't even need to do that.  You can go for the finishing move immediately on encounter.  This means that on Normal, an Adept isn't only capable of killing enemies without firing a shot - it means he can clear entire sections of enemies while barely taking a breather from using Storm to run from room to room.  On Hardcore, the only additional requirement is that you take Garrus and Miranda for the double Area Overload, or Jacob for Pull/Inciendary on armor-heavy sections.[/quote]
And again you mistake finishing moves for crowd controlling ones. I am beginning to think that you really don't understand the difference between the two. As I said I cannot explain the thing to you since it's too long. I suggest you to study a bit the terms and the differences. The fact that you use control skills to kill enemies doesn't mean that they become finishing skills. If you use Hold Monster on an Ogre to control it and then a party member kills the controlled Ogre doesn't mean that Hold Person is a damage spell, because the damage is an effect, not the cause.


[quote]I've played a mage on DAO.  The behavior between difficulty levels is absolutely not the same.  On lower difficulty levels, there is less Friendly Fire.  On the lowest difficulty setting, there's none at all.  This means that you can spam Flame Blast and Shock essentially without regard for team mates, and the effect of the two used consecutively is devastating on most foes on these settings.[/quote]
Again, you confound things. Friendly fire is within the scope of the spells. It is always there, also on lower difficulties. It is only the damage that is reduced, but the _effect_ of the spells doesn't change, nor it changes the way you use them and when and how you can do it. The experience is exactly the same. The scope and role of spells doesn't change. What changes is only the effect of the skills, not how they work.


[quote]Few games play the same on all difficulty levels.  Indeed, if all difficulty levels played exactly the same and demanded the same skill from players, what would be the point?[/quote]
What changes is not the _role_ of classes, spells, whatever. What changes is just the challenge.



[quote]Well, okay, you have a point there.  I don't agree that Biotics should function the same at every difficulty level.  Guns and gun classes don't behave that way, either.  You can't use a Pistol to snipe at Normal, but the Pistol is powerful enough that you can use it as a main weapon with any class for the entire game and win handily.  This is less true at higher difficulty levels as higher Health and Shields begins to impose a restriction on how much you can use any given weapon.[/quote]
The restriction is always inherent in the _role_ and _scope_ of the weapon. These two don't change for guns.


[quote]I don't run out of ammo on Normal.  I do on Hardcore.  This means that as a Soldier, I can, more or less, play the entire game on Normal, never shifting from just using the Vindicator Rifle.  On Hardcore, I have to conserve ammo when I can so that I don't run out at inopportune times.  Sometimes, I actually kinda wish that the Soldier had access to the Tempest, even though the Geth Pulse Rifle is a reasonable facsimile of it.[/quote]
Again, the changes you are talking too doesn't make you change the role you have. An Infiltrator remains a sniper on all difficulties, no matter if enemies are armored or not. Sniper Rifle scope is always the same, it doesn't change. There's no external imposition that changes the role of the gun. You can finish ammo faster, but the role of the gun is the same. You are confronting two things that are completely different trying to make them pass as the same. Until you don't understand that you are talking of effects that remaing in the boundaries of the scope of the skills/guns while I talk of effects that goes beyond them there's no really much point in the discussion anymore.

Modifié par Amioran, 06 février 2010 - 02:30 .

[Flash_in_the_flesh]

On lower difficulties of ME2, this does not change. You Throw or Pull the enemy out of cover, then he gets killed because he can't retaliate and has no cover defense. If you're a Biotic, you can finish an entire bunch of mooks by using Pull Field, and then exploding the center guy with Warp thereafter. That is not a control combo. That is a mass-kill combo.

On lower difficulties everything is a "power word kill". Try modding your game and play adept without restricitons on insanity. You still won't be more powerful and quicker at killing than Widow wielding infiltrator.

[syn1988]

Flash_in_the_flesh wrote...

On lower difficulties of ME2, this does not change. You Throw or Pull the enemy out of cover, then he gets killed because he can't retaliate and has no cover defense. If you're a Biotic, you can finish an entire bunch of mooks by using Pull Field, and then exploding the center guy with Warp thereafter. That is not a control combo. That is a mass-kill combo.

On lower difficulties everything is a "power word kill". Try modding your game and play adept without restricitons on insanity. You still won't be more powerful and quicker at killing than Widow wielding infiltrator.

I don't even use my Widow unless I'm killing Sions/Harbingers, and even then; I tend to refrain as it makes it too easy. The regular pistol (carnifex is garbage) + the tempest and my powers is all I need 9/10 times.

Hey, a big group of Blue Suns! Miranda hits them with an AOE Overload to insta-fry all of their shields, while mordin and I hit them with AOE Reave + AOE Incinerate. If they aren't dead instantly, they're stunned from Reave and one burst from the tempest drops them.


Oh noes, a group of Collectors! It's time for Morinth! Find one with the Collector Beam, Reave to insta-fry his barrier, and Dominate him. He's going to run around for 12 seconds absolutely melting the **** out of the other collecters and soaking up fire while you trash them. When Dominate wears off, recast it.

Blood Pack Mercs! Damn, their HP regen is hardcore. Wait, no, Area Reave to one-shot their armor, then Incinerate to either kill them or permenantly stop their HP regen while severely wounding them.

Husks! Your turn Jack. Round them up and use Reave to fry their armor, then have Jack toss a shockwave at them to insta-kill them all. Shooting them in the junk with the Widow, and making their legs explode is also funny.

Praetorans! Oh no! Wait, they're a joke too. Use your Tempest + Reave to fry the Barrier like it's nothing, and then just kite it around, using your pistol and slapping it with Reave whenever it's off cooldown (If you didn't get it by now, Reave deals 2x damage to Armor/Barriers). Praetoran fights all have infinitely respawning ammo strewn about, so you'll never run out of pistol ammo.

Sions! Ignore them until everything else is dead, then Reave + Pistol, Reave + Pistol. If you're an infiltrator, 2x Cloaked Widow headshots and 1 regular headshot will kill them. If by some miracle your party is still alive because they didn't peek out of cover and get one-shotted by the sion at some point, feel free to send them charging at it for the lulz.




So yeah, Insanity is a joke. Just use a properly built party (Miranda + Mordin is the best all-around group), and take Reave. There's a few fights that seem impossible, but there's ALWAYS a really easy way to deal with each encounter.

Modifié par syn1988, 06 février 2010 - 03:09 .

[Moogliepie]

There is a lot inconsistency in this thread. People are repetitively claiming their only issue is that Biotics are less fun on Insanity because they can't do cool combos, but then these same people keep slipping in comments about how much easier it is to play a soldier or infiltrator. Stop waffling.



Now maybe I'm just not as good as some you at shooters, but after playing as a soldier, then a sentinel on insanity, I was surprised how much easier being a sentinel was. Especially after reading all the whinging about it. As a soldier, I had to burn through clips like crazy and heavily rely on Miranda's warp and overload abilities. Note that for my soldier, I started a second playthough and had all the weapons and more skills whereas my Sentinel was a new ME1 import, yet I still found it easier. The ammo limitations weren't a big deal for my sentinel since I had powers. Using warp/overload in conjunction with Miranda, I was able to strip them down to health, then use Jacob to pull for CC, let my teammates focus fire on him, and move on to the next guy. Granted a Sentinel is not an adept, but the same basic idea that biotics are useless, as the thread title states, is ridiculous.



Even as far as the fun factor goes, well, on Veteran as a Soldier, there was more of a choice between weapons/ammo. On Insanity, choosing the slow sniper rifle was suicide. I felt a lot more restricted in my options, and it felt like I was hitting enemies with a BB gun half the time, whereas with warp/overload spamming at least was more effective. Concussive shot was useless, and Adrenaline is overrated, I mostly used it as a last ditch effort. And because soldiers are so dependent on their party members (especially during Husk levels) biotics for CC, we get just as much, if not more affected than people actually playing those classes.





Anyways, your thread title is misleading. Biotics aren't useless, it's just that Insanity level isn't very fun, regardless of your class.

[Flash_in_the_flesh]

syn1988 wrote...

So yeah, Insanity is a joke. Just use a
properly built party (Miranda + Mordin is the best all-around group),
and take Reave. There's a few fights that seem impossible, but there's
ALWAYS a really easy way to deal with each encounter.

Of
course it is. Nobody is complaining that insanity is too hard. Adepts
have easy time on insanity, it's not a difficulty issue. Oh, and every
class can build a proper party, but not every class is limited to 1-2 working skills.

Moogliepie wrote...

There is a lot inconsistency in this thread. People are repetitively claiming their only issue is that Biotics are less fun on Insanity because they can't do cool combos, but then these same people keep slipping in comments about how much easier it is to play a soldier or infiltrator. Stop waffling.

This argument came only because people claim that adept would be overpowered if biotics could work on insanity. That's where the comparison comes. Comparing to other classes adept wouldn't be overpowered.

Moogliepie wrote...

Anyways, your thread title is misleading. Biotics aren't useless, it's just that Insanity level isn't very fun, regardless of your class.

True.

Modifié par Flash_in_the_flesh, 06 février 2010 - 03:22 .

[syn1988]

Flash_in_the_flesh wrote...


Of
course it is. Nobody is complaining that insanity is too hard. Adepts
have easy time on insanity, it's not a difficulty issue. Oh, and every
class can build a proper party, but not every class is limited to 1-2 working skills.

I'm actually seeing a ton of people in this thread complain that Insanity is too hard. Then again, I did read it past the first post before I typed up a response <_<. Also, I never said that you straight up can't build a proper group with certain classes. No idea where you got that impression. There are, however, a few straight up bad characters like Zaeed/Thane, and then there's some universally awesome characters like Mordin/Miranda.

Modifié par syn1988, 06 février 2010 - 03:28 .

[jpetrey123]

QQ more. i have an idea scale the difficulty depending on the class.....you know insanity is not the only difficulty level

[jpetrey123]

QQ more. i have an idea scale the difficulty depending on the class.....you know insanity is not the only difficulty level

[Flash_in_the_flesh]

I said that because it's not an argument that adept can build a proper party and rule. All classes can do that.

[syn1988]

Flash_in_the_flesh wrote...

I said that because it's not an argument that adept can build a proper party and rule. All classes can do that.

That's nice, except again; I never said otherwise.

syn1988 wrote...

So yeah, Insanity is a joke. Just use a
properly built party (Miranda + Mordin is the best all-around group),
and take Reave. There's a few fights that seem impossible, but there's
ALWAYS a really easy way to deal with each encounter.

That statement applies to every class.

[Flash_in_the_flesh]

Oh, OK. Sorry.

Modifié par Flash_in_the_flesh, 06 février 2010 - 03:52 .

[Kroniker81]

Moogliepie wrote...

There is a lot inconsistency in this thread. People are repetitively claiming their only issue is that Biotics are less fun on Insanity because they can't do cool combos, but then these same people keep slipping in comments about how much easier it is to play a soldier or infiltrator. Stop waffling.

Now maybe I'm just not as good as some you at shooters, but after playing as a soldier, then a sentinel on insanity, I was surprised how much easier being a sentinel was. Especially after reading all the whinging about it. As a soldier, I had to burn through clips like crazy and heavily rely on Miranda's warp and overload abilities. Note that for my soldier, I started a second playthough and had all the weapons and more skills whereas my Sentinel was a new ME1 import, yet I still found it easier. The ammo limitations weren't a big deal for my sentinel since I had powers. Using warp/overload in conjunction with Miranda, I was able to strip them down to health, then use Jacob to pull for CC, let my teammates focus fire on him, and move on to the next guy. Granted a Sentinel is not an adept, but the same basic idea that biotics are useless, as the thread title states, is ridiculous.

Even as far as the fun factor goes, well, on Veteran as a Soldier, there was more of a choice between weapons/ammo. On Insanity, choosing the slow sniper rifle was suicide. I felt a lot more restricted in my options, and it felt like I was hitting enemies with a BB gun half the time, whereas with warp/overload spamming at least was more effective. Concussive shot was useless, and Adrenaline is overrated, I mostly used it as a last ditch effort. And because soldiers are so dependent on their party members (especially during Husk levels) biotics for CC, we get just as much, if not more affected than people actually playing those classes.


Anyways, your thread title is misleading. Biotics aren't useless, it's just that Insanity level isn't very fun, regardless of your class.

/sigh
Read the op again please.