1428 réponses à ce sujet

[baller7345]

Ok, for all those who seem to think that every enemy has about 2x as many shields as health then explain how I can take out the average Blue Sun's Trooper with one overload for shields and 2 incinerates? That is 200 damage to shields and 420 damage to health.



Is there something I'm missing or is it that these enemies who are everywhere have more health than shields?

[Murmillos]

baller7345 wrote...

Just wondering but has anybody played an engineer before coming to this thread or did you just switch over to the infiltrator/soldier/vanguard because the adept and the engineer both share many of the same weakness in that they can take down two armor types but one type is very hard to take out with their skills alone. Also comparing the two classes you see that many of their abilities don't work on enemy's that have shields, armor, or barrier. For instance A.I. Hacking doesn't work on anything shielded neither does cryo freeze but I've never thought that they were useless. So why does the adept get all the flak while I've seen nowhere near this much hate for the engineer. It intrigues me and I know it doesn't really go with this particular post but I figure it can be answered by one or two posts so it isn't really worth a new thread for.

Engineer plays just the same on Insanity as it does on Normal.  Also, Engineer is not "advertised" as king of CC as the adept has been.  Engineer exsists as is.  Nobody gave Engineer a high pedestal to stand on, so it does better then advertised - thus thats why no body is complaining about.
Plays the same, did better then expected/informed, and is still fun to play with on Insanity.

Engineers can deal with shields and deal with armor.  We can also deal with health regen, and we have CC (area cryo) and our drone (even only 1 point) is good enough to draw enemies out of cover long enough to get taken down.  Engineers only issue is with barriers, but that can be solved with a bonus talent.

For any situation, we have a skill that has use.

For adept, for all the skills they have it boils down to just two.  Warp and Reave(bonus).  Occasionally Shockwave is useful when you get swarmed by husks.  And the play style between Normal and Instanity is huge.

Modifié par Murmillos, 08 février 2010 - 06:56 .

[Flash_in_the_flesh]

baller7345 wrote...

Ok, for all those who seem to think that every enemy has about 2x as many shields as health then explain how I can take out the average Blue Sun's Trooper with one overload for shields and 2 incinerates? That is 200 damage to shields and 420 damage to health.

Is there something I'm missing or is it that these enemies who are everywhere have more health than shields

There's something called penetration. Each weapon and power has different type of penetration which means that some weapons are good against shields, some against armor, other against barrier or HP. Same goes with powers. You can't directly compare shield value to HP value. Even when enemy has more HP than shields you need more time to take out shields than HP.

And in case that someone will come proving the opposite, yes there are exeptions. Few.

Engineer also suffer from enemy shielding but unlike adept, engineer do his job well, exactly what he's supposed to do an what was advertised. Engineer has drones which do similar job as singularity (focus enemy's fire and draw enemy out of cover), can take out shields with overload, armor and HP with incinerate, create a "summon" who aggro damage with AI hacking. The only thing power that suffer from shield protection is cryo blast. Notice how often you use it and how high you value it comparing to other skills. That's how high we value adept's CC.

Modifié par Flash_in_the_flesh, 08 février 2010 - 08:01 .

[baller7345]

Murmillos wrote...

baller7345 wrote...

Just wondering but has anybody played an engineer before coming to this thread or did you just switch over to the infiltrator/soldier/vanguard because the adept and the engineer both share many of the same weakness in that they can take down two armor types but one type is very hard to take out with their skills alone. Also comparing the two classes you see that many of their abilities don't work on enemy's that have shields, armor, or barrier. For instance A.I. Hacking doesn't work on anything shielded neither does cryo freeze but I've never thought that they were useless. So why does the adept get all the flak while I've seen nowhere near this much hate for the engineer. It intrigues me and I know it doesn't really go with this particular post but I figure it can be answered by one or two posts so it isn't really worth a new thread for.

Engineer plays just the same on Insanity as it does on Normal.  Also, Engineer is not "advertised" as king of CC as the adept has been.  Engineer exsists as is.  Nobody gave Engineer a high pedestal to stand on, so it does better then advertised - thus thats why no body is complaining about.
Plays the same, did better then expected/informed, and is still fun to play with on Insanity.

Engineers can deal with shields and deal with armor.  We can also deal with health regen, and we have CC (area cryo) and our drone (even only 1 point) is good enough to draw enemies out of cover long enough to get taken down.  Engineers only issue is with barriers, but that can be solved with a bonus talent.

For any situation, we have a skill that has use.

For adept, for all the skills they have it boils down to just two.  Warp and Reave(bonus).  Occasionally Shockwave is useful when you get swarmed by husks.  And the play style between Normal and Instanity is huge.

Thanks for the answer.  On another note can't the adept simply take energy drain to deal with shields.  I'm not trying to prove you wrong, but I'm going to play an adept my next playthrough and want as much info as possible.

[Willie_on_Wheels]

I played the game, and I can confirm. Biotics suck HARD.

[baller7345]

Flash_in_the_flesh wrote...

baller7345 wrote...

Ok, for all those who seem to think that every enemy has about 2x as many shields as health then explain how I can take out the average Blue Sun's Trooper with one overload for shields and 2 incinerates? That is 200 damage to shields and 420 damage to health.

Is there something I'm missing or is it that these enemies who are everywhere have more health than shields

There's something called penetration. Each weapon and power has different type of penetration which means that some weapons are good against shields, some against armor, other against barrier or HP. Same goes with powers. You can't directly compare shield value to HP value. Even when enemy has more HP than shields you need more time to take out shields than HP.

And in case that someone will come proving the opposite, yes there are exeptions. Few.

Engineer also suffer from enemy shielding but unlike adept, engineer do his job well, exactly what he's supposed to do an what was advertised. Engineer has drones which do similar job as singularity (focus enemy's fire and draw enemy out of cover), can take out shields with overload, armor and HP with incinerate, create a "summon" who aggro damage with AI hacking. The only thing power that suffer from shield protection is cryo blast. Notice how often you use it and how high you value it comparing to other skills. That's how high we value adept's CC.

I personally use cryo freeze alot.  It has been a huge on insainty since I can shut down 1-4 enemies sot that I can focus on other threats.  I figure you could use the CC of the adept the same way.  When your class is as fragile as the engineer and persumably the adept stopping enemies for any lenghth of time is very helpful.  Now I don't have experience with the adept but that was my thinking on how their abilities would be useful.

[baller7345]

Flash_in_the_flesh wrote...

baller7345 wrote...

Ok, for all those who seem to think that every enemy has about 2x as many shields as health then explain how I can take out the average Blue Sun's Trooper with one overload for shields and 2 incinerates? That is 200 damage to shields and 420 damage to health.

Is there something I'm missing or is it that these enemies who are everywhere have more health than shields

There's something called penetration. Each weapon and power has different type of penetration which means that some weapons are good against shields, some against armor, other against barrier or HP. Same goes with powers. You can't directly compare shield value to HP value. Even when enemy has more HP than shields you need more time to take out shields than HP.

Did you read what I said.  It takes one overload, about 1 second to take out shields.  It then takes 2 Incinerates to take out their health.  Oops I can see where my original post makes this unclear.  Sorry about that, but the point is that overload says it does 200 damage to shields while incinerate deals 210 damage over 3 seconds to health and is very effective against armor.  So with those enemies the shields come down much faster than the health.  I face a lot of eneimes have much more health than shields so that those enemies lose shields much faster than health.

Modifié par baller7345, 08 février 2010 - 08:30 .

[Flash_in_the_flesh]

Well yes, I guess cryo blast is used more often since engineer can take both shields and armor. Their situation is much better than adepts'.

And yes, you can take energy drain for adept but still no other class needs a bonus skill to make their other skills something more than situational finishers. What an irony that adept has to take tech skill to fill their role as an adept.

Modifié par Flash_in_the_flesh, 08 février 2010 - 08:49 .

[Nikitn]

are you insane? biotic power charge is extremely powerful, and it recharges VERY fast. Almost impossible to kill me.



PS. Great work biwoare! Greatest torrent I have ever downloaded!!

[Walker White]

Graunt wrote...

Warp does not remove cover, it doesn't go around corners

Neither does pull, despite the mass informormation about it doing so.  It will only grab someone that is partially exposed no matter what, exposed enough that a bullet would hit.  Singularity is the only ability that will truly grab someone that's completely covered. 

This is completely false.  All biotics (pull, singularity, warp, reave, throw) go around corners.  You just have to know how to do it.  Biotic targeting is completely undocumented, and I had no idea how it worked until Christina told me herself on these forums.

I do not know what you mean by "partially exposed".  It is true that you have to have enough of the person exposed so that you get a red box around them; if they are not in a firing position (because they are moving behind a large wall) then you get no red box.  But that generally just means the edge of their body is visible, and the game should still consider them fully in cover. I am not aware of the game letting you actually shoot the edges of people hiding in full cover.

But if you have a red box, you can hit them.  The mistake is shooting at your target.  That is what you do with guns, but that is not how biotics work.  To use biotics, do the following:

(1) Put your reticle on your target so that you get your red box.

(2) Move the reticle away from your target in order to arc around corners.

(3) Fire your power.

Your shot will shoot straight out of your reticle and form a perfect arc to hit your selected target.  If that arc intersects cover, then it will fail.  However, if the arc is wide enough (and you do not have other obstacles like the factory locations in Illium), it will not intersect cover and thus go around corners.  Your only limitation is that if you make the arc too wide, you will lose the red box and your prey is no longer targeted.

[JaegerBane]

Willie_on_Wheels wrote...

I played the game, and I can confirm. Biotics suck HARD.

I'm not quite sure it's as bad as that, but ultimately it was a rather absurd choice to have the majority of biotics only affecting enemies when their armour/shields/barriers are down.

As has been said on the boards before, it's not far off telling a soldier that he can only use his shotty and pistol until the shields come down. Biotics are a big part of ME and relegating them to pretty finishing moves wasn't the best idea I've heard so far.

[BundyTheRipper]

I thought I'd weigh in on this one.  For my insantity I chose a pure biotic. Singularity actually has an effect on shielded enemies in that it interupts their ability to fire, warp devistates armor and is great undercover. Throw is best against husks. Where biotics really shine are the learned abilities from your team mates. I used reave at first but switched it off to Dominate, it was very handy to have collector assasins shooting the harbinger, and with biotic specializations you get the best recharge times with the longest durations. When you get your third weapon go asssault and grab someone with an ammo type. Empty your clip and fire off a biotic while reloading, when done you will be reloaded. No stop in the action.  Also take some good balance, in insantiy garrus ammo for organics, zaeed for synthetics using the squad ammo option, and I brought grunt because for a biotic he is an amazing meat shield.

P.S. to fire around corners fire your biotic wide so it can come in at an angle, it is homing after all. Example: enemy behind a crate, open space to the left, fire wide to the left and as long as the orange square is still targetting the enemy itll go around the corner.

Modifié par BundyTheRipper, 08 février 2010 - 09:09 .

[baller7345]

Wasn't I just told that the engineer can take a bonus talent to deal with their weakness against barriers how is that different that what the adept is doing. I'm aware that they aren't nearly as powerful as they were in the first game but no class is. No indestructible immunity soldiers, no more infiltrators never leaving marksman, and no more godly adepts. Even the engineer which is constantly called the weakest class in ME1 was able to walk into a room and throw out 10m radius overloads and sabotages which pretty much made an entire room of enemies with no shields and overheating weapons. Every class has seen a downgrade in power to some extent just some more than others, and yes the adept probably got the biggest downgrade but they sort of needed it.

[Schneidend]

Biotics aren't useless. They've merely been toned down to be less god-like. Warp is still one of the most useful powers in the entire ME franchise.

[Roxlimn]

Flash_in_the_Flesh:



Okay, now that's just weird.



First it was because only Warp works on defended opponents. Not true.



Then it was because Health is a small component of enemy HPs. Also not true.



Then it's because Adepts can't deal with Shields. Also not true.



And no, you don't have to take Energy Drain to do it, and you can retrain that out whenever you like, anyway. In lieu of Energy Drain, you can take Assault Rifle Training at the appropriate time and then bring along the Geth Rifle on missions that have Shields. Or use squad powers. Or Warp Ammo and Phasic SMGs.



Seriously, Shields are only an insurmountable problem for Adepts if you keep trying to take them down with Warp.



Pull is not situational. Anytime you see an undefended enemy, Pull him. Takes him out for a long time, even from behind cover. Usually, he's dead. Not situational.



Singularity, also not situational. Also, not a finisher.



Throw - also for removing cover, but can function for the combo kill with Pull, knockdown against high health Shotgunners, and the situational insta-kill.



Please show me where I am wrong. I'm playing Hardcore and I'm Pulling and Throwing and generally causing all manner of biotic havoc to great effect. I can do things people say I shouldn't be able to do. Is my code broken or something?



Others perform similarly well on Insanity (refer to them, please) and they're not Warp-spamming, either. In fact, warp spammers occasionally complain about taking so long to finish enemies, a complaint that I can't say I suffer in Hardcore at all on Adept. Adepts take out multiple enemies hella fast.

[Flash_in_the_flesh]

Let me just say that first was OP which I first agree with and other arguments only come as replies to neverending discussion. So no, it wasn't first because only warp works on defended opponents or about health, or shields. First it was because Warp is the most efficient skill adept has in his arsenal along with crippled version of singularity. Yes you can use pull, throw and shockwave. I also do use them but not because they are needed anywhere in the game, only because I'm so bored that I'd even use a space hamster on unprotected enemy for the sake of fun.

If I want to be efficient I use Warp alone all the time. That's the point. To kill an enemy you can use 3 Warps or 2 Warps + throw, or 2 Warps + pull and couple of shots from weapon, or whatever. 3rd step is always just a finisher. You just need one another Warp to finish enemy, you can Warp through whole insanity. It's boring.

With new ME2 protection, biotics other than reave and/or warp are just a crippled unnecessary addition which serve as a pretty finisher.

Pull is not situational. Anytime you see an undefended enemy, Pull him. Takes him out for a long time, even from behind cover. Usually, he's dead. Not situational.

Pull him and shoot couple of times or just Warp him again. Why waste time on pull and shooting? The rare moments it's actually helpful make the skill situational.

Singularity, also not situational. Also, not a finisher.

Sure singularity technically is not a finisher because you need... duh... another Warp or couple of shots. Yea but there's hold feature so singularity defends itself as a CC.

Throw - also for removing cover, but can function for the combo kill with Pull, knockdown against high health Shotgunners, and the situational insta-kill.

Situational - sometimes it's helpful but not necessary. Can be used for combo kill with Pull or instead of throw you can just Warp. To think of it you can actually Warp instead of both Pull and Throw. Warp, warp, warp again.

In fact, warp spammers occasionally complain about taking so long to finish enemies, a complaint that I can't say I suffer in Hardcore

Insanity means more HP, shields, armor for enemies = longer fights.

Modifié par Flash_in_the_flesh, 08 février 2010 - 09:59 .

[Roxlimn]

Flash_in_the_Flesh:

Pull him and shoot couple of times or just Warp him again. Why waste time on pull and shooting? The rare moments it's actually helpful make the skill situational.

Because in my experience, Pull tracks around cover better than Warp. I can pull out an enemy that's nearly right smack dab in the middle of a large crate and Pull him out for the kill. Harder to do with Warp.



Also, cooldown. Pull has half the cooldown time of Warp. So you pull out the enemy, everyone shoots him and he dies, and you're ready for the next power as soon as you're done.

Situational - sometimes it's helpful against rushing krogans. Can be used for combo kill with Pull or instead of throw you can just Warp. To think of it you can actually Warp instead of both Pull and Throw. Warp, warp, warp again.

Less efficient against single targets because of cooldown. Rather than warp, use Throw on single Pulled enemies so you can be ready for the next power faster. Using Warp in this case is a waste of cooldown.



Also, Throw tracks even better than Pull. When targets move, Pull sometimes misses. Throw can hit even moving enemies around cover. Also the damage done is not insignificant. When you're up against an enemy with only a little health left, using Throw to kill him from around cover deals with the problem quickly and efficiently.



Of course, you can always use Throw to throw enemies off buildings and ledges, and as far as I can tell, it insta-kills Husks that don't have defenses.



Apart from charging Krogan, throwing back Shotgun-wielding enemies (merc and vanguards) repeatedly is brutally effective. Better than Warp, easily. Strip the defenses with Area Overloads (or Rifles or SMGs or what have you) then Throw them back one at a time when they get too near. You don't even need to stay in cover for that one.

Insanity means more HP, shields, armor for enemies = longer.

True, but according to the ini file, the increase in health and other defenses up from Hardcore should be comparable (comparable, not identical) for both values. It may take longer for the Adept, but it should be taking longer for everyone, anyway. Right now on Hardcore, I can strip defenses off mooks with a single Area Overload. On Insanity, it'll take two, so I'll bring Miranda and Garrus. Then I win the encounter with Pull Field. That'll take about two seconds, no exaggeration. It just takes a while longer to do the mop-up gunning down of the floating victims.

[baller7345]

[quote]Roxlimn wrote...

Of course, you can always use Throw to throw enemies off buildings and ledges, and as far as I can tell, it insta-kills Husks that don't have defenses. [quote]



This is a good point.  Throw and pull will instantly kill husks (at least the wiki says pull works) after their defense is down.  Really helpful for avoding being overwhelmed.  Neural Shock also does this but isn't a starting skill.

Modifié par baller7345, 08 février 2010 - 10:17 .

[Heliosas]

The biotics felt watered down after ME1. I found my Vanguard wasn't as fun as it was in the first game. Although I still loved the game from start to finish regardless.

[Roxlimn]

Heliosas:



The Vanguard in ME2 plays significantly differently from how it played in the first game. If you want that kind of action, what you want is the Sentinel. Near as I can tell, it delivers game really well.



Vanguard play is effective, but it's very tactical, very twitchy, very fast. It's nonstop close combat after close combat after close combat.

[Soruyao]

If I want to be efficient I use Warp alone all the time. That's the point. To kill an enemy you can use 3 Warps or 2 Warps + throw, or 2 Warps + pull and couple of shots from weapon, or whatever. 3rd step is always just a finisher. You just need one another Warp to finish enemy, you can Warp through whole insanity. It's boring.

This is the one thing I disagree with the most out of this entire topic. I'm fighting one of those weak robots, I could warp three times to kill it. This is true, but there's three reasons warp+pull+throw would be better. (Or singularity + warp +throw + throw +throw to kill a group of mechs at once.)

1. The enemy is still shooting at you in between warp 2 and warp 3, whereas the pull would have stopped the gunfire right away.
2. Warp has the longest possible cooldown for an adept ability. It will take much longer to warp 3 times than to warp and then pull and throw. Even faster still, you could have your team warp for you and then start off with the pull and throw and be even more efficient still. If you will kill someone anyway, you want to do it with abilities that use the shortest cooldowns, so that you can turn your attention to new targets.
3. If there's a shotgun enemy in your face, even if your warp would bring them to 1% of their HP, you still want to throw them, because that last shotgun shot they get off could be the one that kills you. Pull and throw are ALWAYS safer to use than warp. (Assuming defenses are down.)

The fact that warp has such a long cooldown is why warp spamming is so boring. You spend a lot of time waiting on the GCD, which nobody likes doing.

I also think that singularity is a better CC than the engineer drone, simply because a singularity can't be killed. My time with drones usually has me spamming them because they die relatively quickly. With singularity (especially when you evolve it to heavy) if you put it in a pinch point, you can rest assured that nothing will be able to rush you through there for a long time. It's the most effective way for a class that prefers to stay at range to stay at range (against fully defended targets!) in the game. It's also the best way to get someone with defenses out of cover in the game. (Engineer drone does this too, but it can be killed and so would have situations where it doesn't last as long.)



--edit--

Roxlimn wrote...

Of course, you can always use Throw to
throw enemies off buildings and ledges, and as far as I can tell, it
insta-kills Husks that don't have defenses.

This is one thing I would advise against though, because dropping singularities on your feet and backing up while shooting or meleeing their armor off is easily the most efficient way to deal with husks in the game.   Effectively, you've meleed them to death because the moment the armor goes down, the singularity would kill them.    

Modifié par Soruyao, 08 février 2010 - 10:51 .

[Heliosas]

Roxlimn wrote...

Heliosas:

The Vanguard in ME2 plays significantly differently from how it played in the first game. If you want that kind of action, what you want is the Sentinel. Near as I can tell, it delivers game really well.

Vanguard play is effective, but it's very tactical, very twitchy, very fast. It's nonstop close combat after close combat after close combat.

Which is fine. The battles were great fun. I just felt the biotic selection was too limited and that apart from knocking groups off there feet the biotics were largly there for show. They needed a bit more bite.

I'd rather have powerful biotics and be over run with enemys than have under powered biotics and a handful of shielded and armored enemies. But maybe thats just me. The game was still huge fun and I will be replaying it for years.

Modifié par Heliosas, 08 février 2010 - 11:07 .

[Roxlimn]

Soruyao:



Your singularity doesn't go away just because you use Throw, though, so it's not like you can use both at the same time. Sing also has a 50% greater cooldown, so for 2 Husks, putting down the Sing in lieu of pistol+melee+Throw could be riskier.

[Soruyao]

Roxlimn wrote...

Soruyao:

Your singularity doesn't go away just because you use Throw, though, so it's not like you can use both at the same time. Sing also has a 50% greater cooldown, so for 2 Husks, putting down the Sing in lieu of pistol+melee+Throw could be riskier.

Hmm, but the singularity is AOE though, so I'd hit both husks at once.   Keep in mind that two husks is never really enough to be a threat.  I could easily kill two husks just by running around and meleeing them.   Heck, my squad could probably take out two husks without any personal input.

So powers become more important when you've got multple husks chasing you, in which case having singularity insta kill them when their armor goes down becomes more useful.

However, I will give you if I had area throw, then that could possibly surpass singularity against multiple husks, especially since it would probably damage and flinch all of the still armored ones too.

I personally go for heavy everything because I like throwing things as far as possible, so I'm still fond of singularity.

[Roxlimn]

Ah. There's the rub. I go for Area everything, from Energy Drain to Overload to Reave. The only reason I'm not going area for Warp is because the base warp already has a 5m radius.