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[Soruyao]

mawmaw17 wrote...

The only reason I mention the "length" of the thread because its been argued to death. An appropriate metaphor would be continuing to beat the once resurrected and now zombified horse that is trying to consume your flesh. In this thread, people often use zingers like "L2P" or act like internet tough guys to perpetuate its length, where people have formed their opinions already and are unwilling to change them no matter rhyme or reason.

It's been argued to death because there are plenty of people who actually DO have fun as an adept on insanity.   The fact that the discussion has gone on is a good thing because it gives the devs a good idea about exactly what to fix for ME3 or in a patch.    Remember, I do agree that a change would be a good idea, as it's not perfectly set up right now.  However I'm reccomending nerfs to the stronger classes instead of buffs to the weaker ones.   Insanity should be hard.

The dependence on the cpu squad really hurts when you are fighting a scion + anything else with it on insanity as there is very little cover that can stand up to shockwaves.

Scions are the biggest challenge for an adept, but only in the two places where you can't easily get out of their effective shockwave range.  (The first fight in the collector ship and the first fight in the last area of horizon.)  However, these are exactly the moments when heavy weapons and warp shine the most.   (I also need my allies less than ever on scions, since they have armor and warp is amazing against them.)

The description of "It also makes the game tedious and slow unnecessarily" might be used to describe how biotic abilities have little to no effect against enemies with defenses and makes the game longer for those dependent on biotic powers.

Singularity locks enemies with defenses down and makes them super vulnerable to a squad power or some gunshots to take out their defense.   When the defense comes down, it lifts them and you can finish them off with a throw or a warp, or some pulls and melee them to death from the safety of your cover.

The game isn't that much longer if you use your biotics well, even if you are using teammates that don't have squad powers.  Grunt twoshots most enemy defenses with a vindicator, and oneshots a lot of defenses with the shotgun.  
"He'll die if he goes in for shotgunning!" you might say, but he won't if you smack the enemies he's going after with a singularity so they can't shoot back.  

Adding more health would make fights last even longer for biotics too!  (indoors anyway)  It would make the game slower and more tedious for every class, and wouldn't buff biotics in any appreciable way.  (It would just nerf their fun slightly less than it nerfs everyone elses fun, I guess?)

All this argument on this thread means very little because Bioware is not going to change the balancing of a "single player" game because the viability of a few classes becomes significantly less than the other classes on a higher difficulty setting. The thought being that Bioware does not significantly playtest on these difficulties because use of immunity spam on enemies in ME 1 and the discrepancy of class viability in ME 2 with any irritants dismissed as being part of playing on the higher difficulty.

I do agree that class balance is unlikely to change much, and trying to cause or avert changes isn't the main point of why I've been posting and arguing for so long.  My main purpose has been informative.   That is, to point out strategies that could make playing an adept more fun for people if they give them a try.

If I'm having fun, maybe if people who aren't try some of what I'm doing and stop spamming warp, maybe they could have fun too. The worst possibility is that people will read this topic and decide not to even try being an adept at all, and miss out on all the fun that the class has potential for.

Christina norman played through the game twice as an adept and found it fun enough to leave it as it is.  She said earlier that she wanted us as a community to play it and find and share strategies that would make adepts as powerful and fun as they can be.  I think her strategy is flawed in that she's overestimating the creativity of the community, but I'm trying to help with that.   People haven't been trying to do that, they've just fallen into the warp spam rut and I'm trying to jostle people out of it.

Modifié par Soruyao, 10 février 2010 - 05:26 .

[Flash_in_the_flesh]

Soruyao wrote...

(Remember the fight in noveria where you're going into that turian dudess office to get some of his data?  You get the data and this officer chick menaces you with two snipers and a bunch of other guys.      I just throw a singularity and it sucks every single guy in the area up into it along with every table in the room and then I pop marksman and shoot them all to death before the singularity wears out.   They rarely even get a shot off on me, and difficulty doesnt change anything.)

It did need a nerf in the harder difficulties, especially insanity.   In ME, difficulty for an adept did not change as difficulty settings increased, except that you were more likely to get killed by a random sniper or rocket.   Now difficulty does increase as difficulty settings go up.   Can you think of a better way to make the game more difficult for an adept on insanity than normal mode without simply increasing the amount of time we have to cower behind cover and the chances we can get oneshotted?

Turian quest on Noveria. Yes, I did the same thing - singularity and they were all disabled. Pretty fun.
But what is it all about? Adept did not scale well with difficulty?
As an engineer instead of singularity I throw sabotage and got the same result. All enemies were disabled. If you find floating enemies easier then running enemies then it's your opinion. After sabotage I throw underrated overload which apart from shields applies 25% DR penalty. With engineer enemies died faster than with adept.
As a soldier and infiltrator I just turn on immunity and press LMB.

From what you write the problem which we're complaining about concern you as well. So you throw singularity, warp and then use pull or throw only as a pretty finisher when the mood strikes you. All of that and you still pretend everything is all right and you can still use adept in ME2 same you did in ME1.

The argument that adept needed a nerf on insanity is your opinion I don't agree with. Adept wasn't any better than any other class.

[Roxlimn]

Flash_in_the_Flesh:



Totally disagree. As a Soldier on Insanity in ME1 you actually had to know how to shoot straight. You don't even need to to do that much as an Adept in ME1. You could Sing the entire room right from the start (and Lift whatever else wasn't floating) and then go around opening crates and dancing. Your mates can kill every encounter without your ever firing a shot.



That's on Insanity.



Engineer was pretty much the same. Everyone talks about how underpowered Engineer is, but from a Medic specialization standpoint, I don't get that. Most of the time, I spent Insanity as an Medic dicking around firing whichever gun I thought looked cool, regardless of how good it actually was, or whether it hit or not.



The fact that you could resurrect Wrex and Liara or Ashley or Garrus or whoever at least 8 or 9 times every mission allowed them to basically fight your fights for you, usually without a whole lot of supervision.



What's so hard about that? It got so boring, I stopped playing it after Virmire.



ALL the classes needed nerfing on ME1's higher difficulties. The entire way they scaled difficulty in that game was wrong.



Higher diff Adept is actually interesting. You have to think about defense solutions and then kill solutions. It's not just firing at one guy, then the next, then the next. If you guys can't use these fabulous powers to speed up your play - you're doing it wrong.



mawmaw17:



The game actually goes substantially faster as an Adept compared to a Soldier depending on how you're doing things.



If nothing else, understand this: Pull and throw are conditional insta-kill powers. That doesn't make them useless. It makes them conditional insta-kill powers. All you need is to set up the condition and they work.



An Infiltrator can set up cover, and then snipe 3 mooks to death with one shot each, acting on his own, taking maybe 3 seconds per enemy. That allows him to kill those three mooks in 9 seconds. If he can rely on his mates to take out one, 6 seconds.



An Adept can ask his mates to mass-remove those defenses, use Pull on the center enemy, then Warp after the 3 (reduced to 2-ish on higher character levels) second cooldown and kill all the enemies. You don't even need to seek cover. You're barely breaking out of your run animation, even. If your mates can one-shot remove defenses, then you can ask Jacob to Pull or Miranda or Thane to Warp, using Pull yourself, and kill all those enemies in less than 2 seconds - it only takes the span of time for all the power animations to actually land.



That's faster than either a Soldier or an Infiltrator.



I've been doing the Tuchanka missions using the krogan and the salarian (avoiding spoilers here). They remove Armor remarkably well. In fact, since getting my AR on, I'm pretty good at removing Armor through gunfire myself. A Vorcha merc on Hardcore takes no more than 1 burst from a Vindicator to remove all his armor. They ARE lightly armored, after all. M can remove all the armor from multiple enemies in one shot. Then it's insta-kill time.



Fights go really fast.



Soruyao:



I tried Hurricane Throw. I didn't like it as much as Throw Field. The thing with Throw Field is that it's essentially Concussive Shot that goes around corners but doesn't harm Barriers. You remove defenses from a bunch of enemies at once and it's blasty-blast time. I have a hoot every time I send a whole pack of enemies violently flying out from behind their cover area, sometimes into insta-death zones. And I'm actually good enough to Throw that I can, more or less, direct where the enemies go. I can Throw an enemy into another enemy, strip that enemy's defenses down with guns, and then lock them both down with Throw Field.



As a lockdown power, I like Throw Field a lot - so much so that I respecced and traded out Heavy Warp because I wanted the points for Improved Barrier. I still have level 2 Singularity, though. Combining Singularity with Throw Field with Incineration Blast just melts the Husks away so entertainingly. POW! Sweet revenge for my Infiltrator deaths.

[Soruyao]

Roxlimn wrote...
Soruyao:

I tried Hurricane Throw. I didn't like it as much as Throw Field. The thing with Throw Field is that it's essentially Concussive Shot that goes around corners but doesn't harm Barriers. You remove defenses from a bunch of enemies at once and it's blasty-blast time. I have a hoot every time I send a whole pack of enemies violently flying out from behind their cover area, sometimes into insta-death zones. And I'm actually good enough to Throw that I can, more or less, direct where the enemies go. I can Throw an enemy into another enemy, strip that enemy's defenses down with guns, and then lock them both down with Throw Field.

As a lockdown power, I like Throw Field a lot - so much so that I respecced and traded out Heavy Warp because I wanted the points for Improved Barrier. I still have level 2 Singularity, though. Combining Singularity with Throw Field with Incineration Blast just melts the Husks away so entertainingly. POW! Sweet revenge for my Infiltrator deaths.

Interesting.  I'll have to give it a try on my next adept run, since I'm almost entirely done with mine.  (Got the IFF, so not much more I can do.)  I  think I'm going to go Nemesis/heavy shockwave/throw field and then see how that goes.   XD   In theory it could make for some interesting strategy!

[Murmillos]

ahh yes.. the "adepts are fun once a I take defenses down with guns/warp" argument. *golf clap*

[Murmillos]

Maviarab, what difficulty level?

[mawmaw17]

Keyword: "Insanity"

[Selvec_Darkon]

If you play on insanity then you have to expect that things are going to be a hell of a lot harder. More enemies with armor is to be expected. If then you find it more challenging then playing on vetern with an adapt, my gods I think Bioware did it's job. They made the game harder for you when you increased the difficulty levels.



Shock and surprise people. The hardest difficulty level is actually hard. What will they do next in gaming ha? Make COD singleplayer more then three hours long?

[Br0th3rGr1mm]

Maviarab wrote...
Never played as an Adept in ME1, started one as my first character in ME2, loved it. Never had any probs and hardly used warp.

I'd say you were doing it wrong, but whatever works for you.  Warp is one of the few Adept skills that works on nearly every defense and enemy type.  Not using it if you have it is just....not too bright.

[tetracycloide]

Roxlimn wrote...
I still have level 2 Singularity, though. Combining Singularity with Throw Field with Incineration Blast just melts the Husks away so entertainingly. POW! Sweet revenge for my Infiltrator deaths.

Why three powers? Two will do.  Heavy Singularity.  Heavy Incinerate.  Husks evaporate.  Singularity stuns.  Damage over time. Instant kills unarmored husks.  Incinerate drops armor.  What does throw field do?  Nothing.  May have uses elsewhere.  Not against Husks.  Not with evolved Singularity.

Modifié par tetracycloide, 10 février 2010 - 03:21 .

[Amioran]

Roxlimn wrote...

Amioran:

I understand your main premise. I simply don't agree with it. As mentioned, your personal belief of what an Adept should do does not mean that the class is not effective [i]while using powers other than Warp or Reave or Singularity[/b], and that is the point of this thread, is it not?

If players can use Throw and Pull to advantage, and have fun doing it on all difficulty levels, then Biotics are NOT useless. Is that not the case?

Again, it's not MY "belief" of what an Adept should be, it is how a CC class should work. But since I can understand that the CC role is abstract for the majority of people out there and the role can be open to different interpretations for those who are not accustomed to it I will instead make an example using a role that it's more known, agreed upon and so less prone to different interpretations: the role of the sniper. I will take this role and make to it the same changes to the role as done to the CC one. Let's see if you still think that it is MY interpretation or if in reality there's no way the role can remain the same on higher difficulties.

The class will naturally be the Infiltrator (Soldier would be fine too but the "real" sniper is the Infiltrator, just as the "real" CC master is the Adept). The changes are enemies with any form of protection can see through Cloak, the sniper rifle doesn't work at all against them and the slowing time don't work the same against them. The rest is invaried (this is a little concession to the sniper since only three fundamental aspects of it are changed, while for an Adept it is about 80% of the skills that don't work as they should, but it will suffice).

Let's see what happens to the sniper role. To effectively use the sniper rifle you will have to take proper squad members that can remove protections. You can only snipe enemies that are on red health, so you are more a finisher than a true sniper. Forget about stealth at all, since the most important enemies will see you the same. Those moment when ALL enemies will be without protection you will not need cloak anyway.

Are you telling me the role isn't changed? It is the same as it was before? Sure, you can find a way to make the class work also changed in this way, but will the Infiltrator be the same Infiltrator as it should be? Nope. Will the class have the freedom it should have? Nope. Will the role be changed? Yes. Or you resort to using guns instead of the sniper rifle or you act as a finisher. The stealth role will be used only as a gimmick.

You see, what it's really fun about all this argument is just the fact that people find *excuses* on why the class "can" work, how to make it be effective and whatever, but yet I wonder why people do it. Why as an adept I should take exclusively some squad members or resort to always spam a skill? With other classes it is not this way. As a soldier or infiltrator or sentinel (or whatever) you can choose which party members you like and use all you like without restrictions (if not the ones that are inherent to the skills/guns roles). Why should it be any different for the Adept? I don't get it. I don't really get the need of many people here to find a justification for the difference in treatments between biotics and guns (for example) and between classes. The fact that you can play with the Adept the same and also have fun with it (adapting the style to a different role) doesn't change the fact that you are much less free to do as you want that with other classes and I don't understand why that should be the case and why people continue to actually trying to justify this disparity.

Why all other classes play the same in all difficulties while the Adept (and Vanguard) play differently? Why should I change the way I play the class, the members I take, the skills I use (and how and when I use them) when for other classes it doesn't happen? Again, the fact that you can play the Adept as it is now doesn't change the disparity, nor justify it.

If you insert a restriction to the use of skills (or guns in the example of the sniper) that are what defines the class' role then you actually change the same role. As I said I can understand that for many people here the CC role is much more abstract than it should be, but really it's not difficult to understand that if the most important aspect of the role is REMOVING HIGH TREATH TARGETS AS FAST AS POSSIBLE and you create a restriction that prevents (or make it much more difficult to do so without proper precautions) the possibility of doing it, then you are changing the role of the class, no matter if you can make the new role work or not (and no matter if you like it more or not).

The same happens, in fact, in the sniper role example. If you change the way stealth and sniper rifle works (that are the primary aspect of the role) then you automatically change the role of the class, no matter if you make the new role work or not.

Modifié par Amioran, 10 février 2010 - 06:09 .

[Amioran]

Soruyao wrote...

Actually, the most classic image of a wizard I can think of is an old guy with a beard and a robe throwing fireballs.   Warp spam definitely does fill that image of a direct damage dealing magic user.   The archetypical wizard is squishy dps that stands in the back.   For a lot of people, CC is not necessarily part of that.   Nevermind the fact that I spend most of my time CCing people on insanity mode anyway, even though people seem to think I can't do that.

This is the way people not accustomed to the real Wizard role see the guy. The "real" Wizard is much less concerned about damage than actually controlling the battlefield. As I said I understand the fact that people used to playing CRPGS instead of knowing the true origin of the classes can make confusion, yet Bioware knows exactly the primary role of classes.

The Sorcerer in DnD is born to implement the aspect of magic you talk of. Being that the Wizard has much less spells to use s/he is usually much more concerned about taking 1 or 2 spells that can change the tide of battle controlling high treaths targets instead of doing damage. In a CRPG damage is maybe the most important aspect (not in all, Bioware has included many aspects beginning with Baldur's Gate that introduced the role of the Wizard better in them) but in PnP there are much more spells that do differnent things, also outside of battle.

[Amioran]

Soruyao wrote...

Actually, the most classic image of a wizard I can think of is an old guy with a beard and a robe throwing fireballs.   Warp spam definitely does fill that image of a direct damage dealing magic user.   The archetypical wizard is squishy dps that stands in the back.   For a lot of people, CC is not necessarily part of that.   Nevermind the fact that I spend most of my time CCing people on insanity mode anyway, even though people seem to think I can't do that.

This is the way people not accustomed to the real Wizard role see the guy. The "real" Wizard is much less concerned about damage than actually controlling the battlefield. As I said I understand the fact that people used to playing CRPGS instead of knowing the true origin of the classes can make confusion, yet Bioware knows exactly the primary role of classes.

The Sorcerer in DnD is born to implement the aspect of magic you talk of. Being that the Wizard has much less spells to use s/he is usually much more concerned about taking 1 or 2 spells that can change the tide of battle controlling high treaths targets instead of doing damage. In a CRPG damage is maybe the most important aspect (not in all, Bioware has included many aspects beginning with Baldur's Gate that introduced the role of the Wizard better in them) but in PnP there are much more spells that do differnent things, also outside of battle.

[Hulk Hsieh]

I think it is very difficult to balance everything through like 4~5 difficulties, especially the extreme difficulty. And I think the responsible of game developer is to ensure all players have an as balanced as possible game in normal difficulty and the 1st run, rather then spending vast effort on the extreme situation to please few veterens.

[Soruyao]

Amioran wrote...

Again, it's not MY "belief" of what an Adept should be, it is how a CC class should work.

First of all, adept IS a CC class.  Our main attack locks an enemy or a group of enemies (if you place it well) down completely, stopping them from moving and shooting for a time that can be longer than your GCD.  It doesn't matter if they have armor or shields or whatever.   You can keep a boss level humanoid completely locked down forever from the start of a fight. (If you can aim the first singularity well enough.) That is CC.   Only two classes can do this.

I spend most of my time CCing.   Lift and throw are finishers, and they're fantastic finishers.   Shockwave might be good or bad, I don't know since I haven't been using it much.  I will on my next playthrough though, so I reserve judgement on that skill.

Do I shoot some?  Sure.   Do I spend less time shooting than I did in ME1?  WAYYYYYY LESS.   20% of my time was spent floating everything and applying warp at the start of fights, and 80% of it was finishing stuff off by pew pewing with my pistol.  (This could take a very VERY long time on insanity.  Especially with krogan, if they pop immunity before the singularity goes off.)

And adepts were my favorite class!

But since I can understand that the CC role is abstract for the majority of people out there and the role can be open to different interpretations for those who are not accustomed to it I will instead make an example using a role that it's more known, agreed upon and so less prone to different interpretations: the role of the sniper. I will take this role and make to it the same changes to the role as done to the CC one. Let's see if you still think that it is MY interpretation or if in reality there's no way the role can remain the same on higher difficulties.

This is good, because I think infiltrator's are the ones who actually do need some balance adjustments.  Lets see what comes of this.  (And yes, I noticed the underhanded insult at the start of that paragraph, mister.)

The class will naturally be the Infiltrator (Soldier would be fine too but the "real" sniper is the Infiltrator, just as the "real" CC master is the Adept). The changes are enemies with any form of protection can see through Cloak, the sniper rifle doesn't work at all against them and the slowing time don't work the same against them. The rest is invaried (this is a little concession to the sniper since only three fundamental aspects of it are changed, while for an Adept it is about 80% of the skills that don't work as they should, but it will suffice).

First of all, I agree that sniper rifles should do way less damage against shielded and barrier'd targets.  So much less, that you'd run out of ammo really quickly if you didn't try to use squad abilities to soften them up a little first.  So that's one of your three.

I don't think the cloak example works because you can't pick out which enemy you're using your cloak on.   Cloak would be something like singularity, where it works well on everything even though they have defenses.  This is the only part I don't disagree with.

The sniper time slowdown would be heavily effected enough by the change to make it so you can't snipe through barriers and shields that it would also seem useless at the start of fights.

Cryo ammo already doesn't do anything to armored targets, so we can substitute that for cloak and we're good, I think.

Let's see what happens to the sniper role. To effectively use the sniper rifle you will have to take proper squad members that can remove protections. You can only snipe enemies that are on red health, so you are more a finisher than a true sniper. Forget about stealth at all, since the most important enemies will see you the same. Those moment when ALL enemies will be without protection you will not need cloak anyway.

So, I agree with you up until the stealth part, because I think that's the one ability the class has that shouldn't be effected by defenses much at all.

Are you telling me the role isn't changed? It is the same as it was before? Sure, you can find a way to make the class work also changed in this way, but will the Infiltrator be the same Infiltrator as it should be? Nope. Will the class have the freedom it should have? Nope. Will the role be changed? Yes. Or you resort to using guns instead of the sniper rifle or you act as a finisher. The stealth role will be used only as a gimmick.

The role would change a little, yes.  It would make the class more challenging, also yes.   Should any class have the freedom to play on insanity with any random squad they pick and not care at all when they die or what abilities they're using on who?

Hard difficulty modes aren't supposed to give you freedom, they're supposed to slap you into shape and make you pay attention to every aspect of a battle.  You're supposed to be a squad leader AND a sniper, not just one or the other.   Otherwise, why the heck are you trying to gather people for the suicide mission?   It's all kind of silly if you can just go solo the collector ship.

You see, what it's really fun about all this argument is just the fact that people find *excuses* on why the class "can" work, how to make it be effective and whatever, but yet I wonder why people do it. Why as an adept I should take exclusively some squad members or resort to always spam a skill? With other classes it is not this way. As a soldier or infiltrator or sentinel (or whatever) you can choose which party members you like and use all you like without restrictions (if not the ones that are inherent to the skills/guns roles). Why should it be any different for the Adept? I don't get it. I don't really get the need of many people here to find a justification for the difference in treatments between biotics and guns (for example) and between classes. The fact that you can play with the Adept the same and also have fun with it (adapting the style to a different role) doesn't change the fact that you are much less free to do as you want that with other classes and I don't understand why that should be the case and why people continue to actually trying to justify this disparity.

1. I don't take any squadmembers exclusively.
2. I don't always spam a skill.  (I use singualrity a lot, but it lasts long enough that the best way to use it is to rotate it with other skills.)
3. You should have restrictions.  It's part of making hard difficulties hard.  It shouldn't be different with the adept and that's my one gripe.  I've been saying this whole time that infiltrators need a nerf for exactly this reason so people will stop whining about adepts being underpowered.  They're one of two classes that are actually a challenge on insanity.  There shouldn't be a disparity, but that doesn't mean they need to make insanity easier for adepts.   If you want to be an adept and not have restrictions, play on normal mode.  Whats that? You don't want to do that because it's not a challenge?  That's right, because ITS NOT, because locking down everything in the room at the start of the fight isnt a challenge.
4. I'm not adapting my style to a different role.  I'm a CC class that spends most of my time CCing things, just like in ME1, except with a whole lot less waiting for stuff to finish dying.  Singularity is CC.  I use singularity a lot.   Adepts have singularity.  Adepts are a CC class.

Why all other classes play the same in all difficulties while the Adept (and Vanguard) play differently? Why should I change the way I play the class, the members I take, the skills I use (and how and when I use them) when for other classes it doesn't happen? Again, the fact that you can play the Adept as it is now doesn't change the disparity, nor justify it.

Again, I think it should happen for the other classes. 

If you insert a restriction to the use of skills (or guns in the example of the sniper) that are what defines the class' role then you actually change the same role. As I said I can understand that for many people here the CC role is much more abstract than it should be, but really it's not difficult to understand that if the most important aspect of the role is REMOVING HIGH TREATH TARGETS AS FAST AS POSSIBLE and you create a restriction that prevents (or make it much more difficult to do so without proper precautions) the possibility of doing it, then you are changing the role of the class, no matter if you can make the new role work or not (and no matter if you like it more or not)

The same happens, in fact, in the sniper role example. If you change the way stealth and sniper rifle works (that are the primary aspect of the role) then you automatically change the role of the class, no matter if you make the new role work or not.

What does singularity do?  it REMOVES HIGH HEALTH TARGETS AS FAST AS POSSIBLE.   It has no restrictions.  It's CC that essentially auto-kills whatever is inside it if their defenses go down before it wears off.  Did it get nerfed from the first game?  Of course.  Is it still incredibly useful and even fun? (At least for me?)  Yesssss.

[Soruyao]

Amioran wrote...

This is the way people not accustomed to the real Wizard role see the guy. The "real" Wizard is much less concerned about damage than actually controlling the battlefield. As I said I understand the fact that people used to playing CRPGS instead of knowing the true origin of the classes can make confusion, yet Bioware knows exactly the primary role of classes.

The Sorcerer in DnD is born to implement the aspect of magic you talk of. Being that the Wizard has much less spells to use s/he is usually much more concerned about taking 1 or 2 spells that can change the tide of battle controlling high treaths targets instead of doing damage. In a CRPG damage is maybe the most important aspect (not in all, Bioware has included many aspects beginning with Baldur's Gate that introduced the role of the Wizard better in them) but in PnP there are much more spells that do differnent things, also outside of battle.

Okay, well if we're talking about DnD in particular, then I guess you'd be right.  But nobody ever said that adepts were supposed to be like DnD wizards.  (Besides maybe you, and the fact that you thought that ME1 adepts were like them.

However, there was one important difference: DnD wizards can't continue casting forver.  If I'm not mistaken, casters in DnD are usually limited by the number of times they can cast a spell a day.   In most cRPGs, this is represented by a resource bar.  (mana)  This balances a caster by having them be powerful at the start of a fight and weak at the end, whereas physical dps classes are limited by their ammunition if they're ranged or their health and run speed if they are melee.

Everything in a game needs to be limited by something.  You can't have an ability with no drawbacks because it breaks the game.  If you have a spell that kills or locks someone down, that costs no resource, has a faster cooldown than it's duration, and works every time you use it, then any class that has access to that ability will never not use it.  (Singularity is very close to that description as it is now, but it's limited by the fact that you can only have it in one place at a time.)

Biotics, tech, and melee are the only two things in the mass effect universe as of now that are completely unlimited resource-wise.  The first two are limited by defenses and the last is limited by range and vulnerability.  If you removed the limiation of defenses on biotics, you would need to create a new limitation to keep the ability from becoming overpowered.   (If you don't believe me, that's fine, but I am convinced that this is at least the way the developers thought about this.)

Guns used to have one resource, overheating.  However, it was so easily completely overcome that it wasn't even a limitation.    The devs wanted to make guns more powerful and speed up killing.   They balanced that by making guns rely on a resource. (I think ammunition might be a little too plentiful, but that's a seperate topic.)

IF they decided to make biotics work on every enemy, while still being as powerful as they are now, it's -very- likely that they would create another limitation on them.  I suspect that we'd end up with something resembling a mana bar.  Actually, that would probably fit with the lore better. (Since biotic users tend to get exhausted after using them a lot.)  Would that be more fun?   I don't know.  It would be a lot less distinctive from other RPGs (and shooters!) though, and that would be a little sad.  It would also make biotics feel much more like guns, which would also be a little sad.

-edit-   <----- I uploaded a video of myself doing a side mission on insanity with jacob and grunt, to prove that I could do it and still have fun.    I had to shoot a little more, but I was able to use a lot of powers pretty consistently.   I struggled the most at a room near the end because my AI decided they didn't want to go where I told them to.  Then I forgot I wasn't a krogan at the end and got myself killed.  But the most important part is that I spent a lot of time CCing stuff, went through at a reasonably fast pace (except for that one room, which I still managed semi-decently.)

Could I have gotten through that mission faster as an infiltrator?   Possibly, but I wouldn't have thrown someone into the ceiling so hard that they get embedded in it and die.  Pride is the difference between and assassin and a thug.  Style is the difference between an assassin and an artist.  

What's more important, I had a TON of fun.    I ran through the same mission about five times.   I died a lot, but it was almost always due to me doing something stupid or failing because of the .5-1 second of input lag I was struggling with.  I'm of the opinion now that in indoor areas with no place to throw people, those two are actually better teammates for an adept than miranda/garrus, or at least very close in effectiveness.

I'll upload the other two videos I recorded later, since it takes like 4 hours to upload one.

Modifié par Soruyao, 11 février 2010 - 12:38 .

[Relinquished2]

Biotic are useless only against shields. You can Warp the barriers and armors off an enemy and singularity is usefull even against shielded opponents.

[Kroniker81]

Murmillos wrote...

ahh yes.. the "adepts are fun once a I take defenses down with guns/warp" argument. *golf clap*

People will grasp for all kind of silly arguments to defend the current idiocy of biotic powers on higher difficulties.
But whatever, I have changed my *.ini file and have fun again. I just feel pity for the X-Box users who do not have this option.

[Kroniker81]

Soruyao wrote...

Okay, well if we're talking about DnD in particular, then I guess you'd be right.  But nobody ever said that adepts were supposed to be like DnD wizards.  (Besides maybe you, and the fact that you thought that ME1 adepts were like them.

However, there was one important difference: DnD wizards can't continue casting forver.  If I'm not mistaken, casters in DnD are usually limited by the number of times they can cast a spell a day.   In most cRPGs, this is represented by a resource bar.  (mana)  This balances a caster by having them be powerful at the start of a fight and weak at the end, whereas physical dps classes are limited by their ammunition if they're ranged or their health and run speed if they are melee.

Everything in a game needs to be limited by something.  You can't have an ability with no drawbacks because it breaks the game.  If you have a spell that kills or locks someone down, that costs no resource, has a faster cooldown than it's duration, and works every time you use it, then any class that has access to that ability will never not use it.  (Singularity is very close to that description as it is now, but it's limited by the fact that you can only have it in one place at a time.)

Biotics, tech, and melee are the only two things in the mass effect universe as of now that are completely unlimited resource-wise.  The first two are limited by defenses and the last is limited by range and vulnerability.  If you removed the limiation of defenses on biotics, you would need to create a new limitation to keep the ability from becoming overpowered.   (If you don't believe me, that's fine, but I am convinced that this is at least the way the developers thought about this.)

Guns used to have one resource, overheating.  However, it was so easily completely overcome that it wasn't even a limitation.    The devs wanted to make guns more powerful and speed up killing.   They balanced that by making guns rely on a resource. (I think ammunition might be a little too plentiful, but that's a seperate topic.)

IF they decided to make biotics work on every enemy, while still being as powerful as they are now, it's -very- likely that they would create another limitation on them.  I suspect that we'd end up with something resembling a mana bar.  Actually, that would probably fit with the lore better. (Since biotic users tend to get exhausted after using them a lot.)  Would that be more fun?   I don't know.  It would be a lot less distinctive from other RPGs (and shooters!) though, and that would be a little sad.  It would also make biotics feel much more like guns, which would also be a little sad.

-edit-   <----- I uploaded a video of myself doing a side mission on insanity with jacob and grunt, to prove that I could do it and still have fun.    I had to shoot a little more, but I was able to use a lot of powers pretty consistently.   I struggled the most at a room near the end because my AI decided they didn't want to go where I told them to.  Then I forgot I wasn't a krogan at the end and got myself killed.  But the most important part is that I spent a lot of time CCing stuff, went through at a reasonably fast pace (except for that one room, which I still managed semi-decently.)

Could I have gotten through that mission faster as an infiltrator?   Possibly, but I wouldn't have thrown someone into the ceiling so hard that they get embedded in it and die.  Pride is the difference between and assassin and a thug.  Style is the difference between an assassin and an artist.  

What's more important, I had a TON of fun.    I ran through the same mission about five times.   I died a lot, but it was almost always due to me doing something stupid or failing because of the .5-1 second of input lag I was struggling with.  I'm of the opinion now that in indoor areas with no place to throw people, those two are actually better teammates for an adept than miranda/garrus, or at least very close in effectiveness.

I'll upload the other two videos I recorded later, since it takes like 4 hours to upload one.

So you have fun playing a class as a total gimmick? Cool. Does that mean we have to feel the same? No.

Instead of limiting guns by old fashioned and boring amunition they could have improved on the heat system. But that would have required some actual creativity albeit I already knew in ME 1 what would have improved the heat system by miles but w/e.

By the way Infiltrator and Soldier are still more powerful than adept even with a modified *.ini and their oh so terribly limited resource so your point is completely irrelevant.

And why are you uploading videos? You really think ME 2 is so complex that we haven't done what you have done already? If that is the case you are badly mistaken.

Modifié par Kroniker81, 11 février 2010 - 09:39 .

[Amioran]

The role would change a little, yes.  It would make the class more challenging, also yes.   Should any class have the freedom to play on insanity with any random squad they pick and not care at all when they die or what abilities they're using on who?

The role would not change "a little", it would change dramatically. You can make an higher difficulty more challenging _without_ changing the role of the class. Actually this is what happens in all RPGs usually.

Hard difficulty modes aren't supposed to give you freedom, they're supposed to slap you into shape and make you pay attention to every aspect of a battle.  You're supposed to be a squad leader AND a sniper, not just one or the other.   Otherwise, why the heck are you trying to gather people for the suicide mission?   It's all kind of silly if you can just go solo the collector ship.

1. If you are no more a sniper how can you be both?
2. Increasing challenge doesn't mean that to do so you have to rely your role. This is utter nonsense.

And btw I never insulted anybody, it seems to me you have a problem of self-esteem. I only said that understanding the CC role is much less immediate than understanding a damage one, as the sniper.

1. I don't take any squadmembers exclusively.
2. I don't always spam a skill.  (I use singualrity a lot, but it lasts long enough that the best way to use it is to rotate it with other skills.)

I always said that you have to do one OR the other. To be able to use the Biotic skills of an Adept on higher difficulties you have to do one of those, there is no way out of this. Please tell me how can you still adhere to a CC role in insanity if point 1 and 2 are missing. The only way is to use the gun all the time to strip defenses. Do you call this a CC role?

You yourself told to me that the Adept have to rely more on squad members, are you contradicting yourself now? I don't see how you can strip defenses with Grunt or Jacob for example if you don't use Warp yourself. The point is that you are not free as in lower difficulties and the increased challenge doesn't justify the change of role, at all.

3. You should have restrictions.  It's part of making hard difficulties hard.  It shouldn't be different with the adept and that's my one gripe.  I've been saying this whole time that infiltrators need a nerf for exactly this reason so people will stop whining about adepts being underpowered.  They're one of two classes that are actually a challenge on insanity.  There shouldn't be a disparity, but that doesn't mean they need to make insanity easier for adepts.   If you want to be an adept and not have restrictions, play on normal mode.  Whats that? You don't want to do that because it's not a challenge?  That's right, because ITS NOT, because locking down everything in the room at the start of the fight isnt a challenge.

AGAIN: restrictions should be inherent on the scope and role of the class. There's no need to change it for the sake of increasing difficulty. Would you like to have a Wizard in Baldur's Gate become a Fighter in hard difficulty just to increase the challenge? What utter nonsense is this?

Decreasing a class power doesn't mean change its role. They are two different things. If to increase challenge you change the role of a class and put restrictions to its fundamentals then you are doing a wrong thing.

4. I'm not adapting my style to a different role.  I'm a CC class that spends most of my time CCing things, just like in ME1, except with a whole lot less waiting for stuff to finish dying.  Singularity is CC.  I use singularity a lot.   Adepts have singularity.  Adepts are a CC class.

You have already shown how you use the CC skills of an Adept. No matter if you insist on telling the contrary, evidence speaks for itself. Control is only a brief mean to do damage. The role is changed. I don't care if you still think that you are a real CC class, because from the explanation of the use of the skills you (and Roxilm (?)) have shown it's clear that the primary focus of the CC role is switched.

You adapt to playing the class in another way, no matter if you understand it or not. Re-read how you use skills and maybe you will understand it too if you can be objective on the matter.

Again, I think it should happen for the other classes. 

Yes, how not. Let's change all classes to other ones just to increase difficulty. It seems very good to me, it's the most obvious thing to do just to increase  challenge.

What does singularity do?  it REMOVES HIGH HEALTH TARGETS AS FAST AS POSSIBLE.   It has no restrictions.  It's CC that essentially auto-kills whatever is inside it if their defenses go down before it wears off.  Did it get nerfed from the first game?  Of course.  Is it still incredibly useful and even fun? (At least for me?)  Yesssss.

And yet Singularity (as I've repeated an hundred times already) is one of the only two Biotics that are not so affected by the restrictions. To be true Singularity still has a reduced effect because the control time is very low in respect to normal, still it retains a bit of its CC role, a luxury the other 80% of Biotic skills don't have.

Good work on taking as an example the ONLY Biotic skill (apart Warp) that it's not concerned so much at higher difficulties, as I always repeated. Don't act smart, please, I ask you kindly. I don't think that to do a bit of CC I should HAVE to take Singularity. This is an imposition.

But also Singuarity is not a real CC skill. As you have shown it's use in higher difficulties is not as a real CC skill (since its duration and usefulness as a _true_ CC role is VERY limited) but only as a mean to follow up with a Warp to detonate a bunch of targets. As you see, the role of the skill is changed. You don't use it no more as the PRIMARY objective of removing targets from the fights, but to do damage to them. While the effect is the same the motive of use its changed.

Modifié par Amioran, 11 février 2010 - 10:32 .

[KainXavier]

My character is a Vanguard.  To me, Vanguards are all about short range combat.  They favor biotic powers that help to close the gap between them and their enemies while taking as little damage as possible.  From my experience, and I did experience all of the content, the game seems to actively discourage this behavior at higher difficulties.  Here's why:

Pull is effectively useless against enemies with shields and/or armor.  When the Pull ability does have an effect, it either kills the enemy NPC instantly or the squad AI will gun the enemy down before the player can react.  It also makes the Pull / Charge combo impractical and hard to pull off.  My suggestion would be to allow most enemy types to be "pulled" regardless of shield/armor.  Heavy-looking NPC's such as the YMIR/LOKI mechs, bosses, or NPC's wielding Heavy Weapons are exempt.

Unless upgraded, using Charge will likely get you killed.  To me, Charge works best in a situation where only a sole enemy is pitted against the player.  This situation rarely happens in-game however.  At Charge, Rank 1 and even at Charge, Rank 2, enemies other than the one "charged" will quickly eat through the player's shields.  Now, the in-game description for the ability mentions being able to quickly escape from enemy NPC's but that is simply not true.  The only way to use the Charge ability to escape is to "charge" at another enemy NPC which potentially puts the player back into the same situation.  If the described escape functionality was in place, it would go a long way to alleviate the issues with this biotic ability in higher difficulties.

Unless upgraded, Shockwave just does not seem powerful enough.  While it does have the ability to travel through barriers, it has a negligible effect on enemies with shields and/or armor.  In fact, the only time I found myself using this ability was after I upgraded it to Improved Shockwave and even then I only used it against Husks.  Personally, I would like to see either an area of effect applied to the base ability or more damage done overall.  Scions can rip through my shields in a single hit with a similar ability for example.

And that's really the brunt of my argument.  Here are some other minor nigglings that are likely a result from the culmination of the above.

• Why do melee attacks do so little damage?
• Why do shotguns eat through ammo so quickly?
• Why have burst-fire Assault Rifles when there are burst-fire SMG's?

Modifié par KainXavier, 11 février 2010 - 01:36 .

[Roxlimn]

 tetracycloide:

Yes, even with Heavy Singularity.  In fact, moreso with Heavy.  Not all the Husks will spawn in the same spot, and Heavy Sing's area usually isn't enough to deal with them all.  Also, Heavy Incinerate rarely hits everything.  It may be easier to use these on Insanity where the HPs are higher, but on Hardcore, area effects clean out faster.

A single husk's Armor can can eliminated with a single burst from an upgrade Vindicator Rifle.  Or one with AP or Inciendary Ammo - various means can be used to increase vs. Armor damage.  You can shoot them fast enough to remove armor from 2 spawning concurrently before they move.  Once stripped of Armor, Throw Field gets rid of both, instantly.

You personally may not need them - perhaps you are compensating with greater aim skill or better tactical decisions.  For my part, I found Throw Field made Husks encounters incredibly fast and easy.  I didn't even have to pause much, and I usually pause to deploy powers.  I mapped it to the third mouse button and went the entire way real-time.  I brought Thane along for another Throw power.  It was much easier and faster than I had done with any other class or character combination.

Amioran:

The difference is that with Infiltrator on higher difficulties, you can't one-shot everything the way you can on lower difficulties, so yes, the role is somewhat changed.  Mind you, it's still considered too powerful by many who play it, so it's not that valid as an example anyway.  That said, I don't know of any way to realistically make Infiltrator play harder.

You see, what it's really fun about all this argument is just the fact that people find *excuses* on why the class "can" work, how to make it be effective and whatever, but yet I wonder why people do it. Why as an adept I should take exclusively some squad members or resort to always spam a skill? With other classes it is not this way. As a soldier or infiltrator or sentinel (or whatever) you can choose which party members you like and use all you like without restrictions (if not the ones that are inherent to the skills/guns roles). Why should it be any different for the Adept? I don't get it. I don't really get the need of many people here to find a justification for the difference in treatments between biotics and guns (for example) and between classes. The fact that you can play with the Adept the same and also have fun with it (adapting the style to a different role) doesn't change the fact that you are much less free to do as you want that with other classes and I don't understand why that should be the case and why people continue to actually trying to justify this disparity.

I'm not trying to justify it.  I'm relating my play experiences on Hardcore.  Just finished with Adept.  You don't need to bring other squaddies along as it turns out.  Early game, I used Energy Drain to attack Shields, then swapped it out for Barrier after getting a well-upgraded Submachine Gun.

You don't need to exclusively take particular squaddies along.  You don't need to spam just one skill.  That is a personal choice on your part.

This is the way people not accustomed to the real Wizard role see the guy. The "real" Wizard is much less concerned about damage than actually controlling the battlefield. As I said I understand the fact that people used to playing CRPGS instead of knowing the true origin of the classes can make confusion, yet Bioware knows exactly the primary role of classes.

The Sorcerer in DnD is born to implement the aspect of magic you talk of. Being that the Wizard has much less spells to use s/he is usually much more concerned about taking 1 or 2 spells that can change the tide of battle controlling high treaths targets instead of doing damage. In a CRPG damage is maybe the most important aspect (not in all, Bioware has included many aspects beginning with Baldur's Gate that introduced the role of the Wizard better in them) but in PnP there are much more spells that do differnent things, also outside of battle.

The Wizard is ALSO the most overpowered class in 3e D&D barring possibly the Cleric, and it exactly because his CC effects are absolute.  A Wizard in 3e can win battles with the application of ONE spell.  An Adept in ME1 can win battles on Insanity with the easy application of ONE power.  Neither mechanic is really all that interesting to me.

You have already shown how you use the CC skills of an Adept. No matter if you insist on telling the contrary, evidence speaks for itself. Control is only a brief mean to do damage. The role is changed. I don't care if you still think that you are a real CC class, because from the explanation of the use of the skills you (and Roxilm (?)) have shown it's clear that the primary focus of the CC role is switched.

You adapt to playing the class in another way, no matter if you understand it or not. Re-read how you use skills and maybe you will understand it too if you can be objective on the matter.

Dude.  Pull and Throw and insta-kill powers.  They're not always insta-kill, yes, but they are often enough that allowing them to affect defended enemies would make the game way too easy.  Seriously, do you use Warp Explosion?  Please tell me that you do, and that you understand how powerful that is.

It's powerful enough just using it on one undefended enemy to blast the rest.  Allowing you to use it without even the benefit of defense will allow you to Pull-Warp your way through the game without firing a single shot or exposing yourself, even, all that often.

[Soruyao]

[quote]Amioran wrote...
The role would not change "a little", it would change dramatically. You can make an higher difficulty more challenging _without_ changing the role of the class. Actually this is what happens in all RPGs usually.  [/quote]

What, because you need to use something other than a sniper rifle once in awhile?  Being a sniper who relies on his squad to take down defenses doesn't make you into another class.  It makes you a sniper who has to work a little harder to not get overrun.

The change would mean infiltrators would actually feel it when their team dies, instead of just ignoring it and moving on like nothing happened.

Of course, the rifle would still work perfectly fine against mechs and every boss level enemy in the game, once the initial layer of defenses is taken off, which means they would still be the best class to bring to a boss fight.


[quote]
1. If you are no more a sniper how can you be both? [/quote] The squad would take down defenses, or you would with a bonus ability, and then you'd kill everything with headshots.   You'd be a squad leader because you'd be issuing commands to your squad, the results of which would matter to you.  You'd be a sniper becuase you'd be killing things with your sniper rifle.

[quote]
2. Increasing challenge doesn't mean that to do so you have to rely your role. This is utter nonsense.[/quote]

Rely your role?   You mean change?    I'm just suggesting the class be a little less solo friendly than it currently is.

[quote]
And btw I never insulted anybody, it seems to me you have a problem of self-esteem. I only said that understanding the CC role is much less immediate than understanding a damage one, as the sniper.[/quote]

You insinuated that people who disagree about this don't understand what CC is.  Or maybe I just read that into what you were saying.  If you were then I apologise about that.

[quote][quote]
1. I don't take any squadmembers exclusively.
2. I don't always spam a skill.  (I use singualrity a lot, but it lasts long enough that the best way to use it is to rotate it with other skills.)[/quote]

I always said that you have to do one OR the other. To be able to use the Biotic skills of an Adept on higher difficulties you have to do one of those, there is no way out of this. Please tell me how can you still adhere to a CC role in insanity if point 1 and 2 are missing. The only way is to use the gun all the time to strip defenses. Do you call this a CC role? [/quote]

Well, I lock down enemies with singularity and then my team shoots their defenses off or uses their abilities to take them off.  Then I finish them off, sometimes by CCing them and making them easier to kill, sometimes by pulling them to me and punching them to death, and sometimes by throwing them into the great beyond.  Singularity acts like a stun on protected targets, and last time I checked, stuns are CC.

How often do I have to use an ability for it to be spam? I have time for 1-3 fast cooldown attacks during the duration of a singularity, depending on how poweful the target i'm locking down is.  I guess you could call that spam, but I regularly use pull and throw as well.  I'm not just going singularity+singularity+singularity all day.

Shooting at someone I've CC'd doesn't make me not a CC class, it makes me a class that CC's and then dpses what they CC'd.

[quote]
You yourself told to me that the Adept have to rely more on squad members, are you contradicting yourself now? I don't see how you can strip defenses with Grunt or Jacob for example if you don't use Warp yourself. The point is that you are not free as in lower difficulties and the increased challenge doesn't justify the change of role, at all.[/quote]

Actually, yes, that is me contradicting myself.  I thought that you did need to bring specific squad members.  Then I actually tried some missions with grunt and jacob and I was pleasantly suprised.   They removed people's defenses by shooting them in the face, and they did it quite well.  (Except for a certain room the pathfinding was screwed up in.)

That's why I uploaded the videos I did actually, because I was genuinely suprised that my squad was working as well as it was.   This is a case of me saying something, then actually trying it out and realizing I was wrong and admitting it.   Who knows, this could happen on some other stuff from this topic, if people give me the right things to try.


[quote]
AGAIN: restrictions should be inherent on the scope and role of the class. There's no need to change it for the sake of increasing difficulty. Would you like to have a Wizard in Baldur's Gate become a Fighter in hard difficulty just to increase the challenge? What utter nonsense is this?

Decreasing a class power doesn't mean change its role. They are two different things. If to increase challenge you change the role of a class and put restrictions to its fundamentals then you are doing a wrong thing.[/quote]

So how would you increase the difficulty for an adept, if they can cc everyone from the start and everything dies fairly quickly?   How do you make sure they actually die sometimes?   Do you just crank up damage so they have to spend 90% of their time behind cover regenerating their shields?  That doesnt sound fun.  At least now I'm always doing something.

The defenses solution may not have been the most elegant one, but I have yet to hear a single suggestion for how to balance it besides "Make it the way it was in ME1!"   I know I can't think of a better way to do it, but then again, I'm no game designer.

We'd probably end up with longer cooldowns, or a mana bar of some kind, or we'd take more damage or something like that.   These are all things people would likely complain about just as much.  I don't know, maybe not.   We're doing ourselves a favor if we brainstorm ideas for that.  Maybe we will come up with something.

I just like the fact that insanity mode on at least one class is actually challenging.  I hope that if they do change things, they do it in a way that doesn't make the hardest difficulty in the game be too easy, because that would be less fun for me.

[quote]
You have already shown how you use the CC skills of an Adept. No matter if you insist on telling the contrary, evidence speaks for itself. Control is only a brief mean to do damage. The role is changed. I don't care if you still think that you are a real CC class, because from the explanation of the use of the skills you (and Roxilm (?)) have shown it's clear that the primary focus of the CC role is switched. [/quote]

Short lived CC is still CC.   Having to put more effort into maintaining CC on a certain high priority target doesn't suddenly make it so that you're not doing CC, it just means your CC is less powerful.  (Or at least that the enemy is very powerful.)

In insanity mode, I spend a lot of time applying a move that CC's a single target and everything close to them.   Am I using CC a little differently, or with a slightly different focus on what the CC is supposed to accomplish?  That I can agree with.

[quote]
You adapt to playing the class in another way, no matter if you understand it or not. Re-read how you use skills and maybe you will understand it too if you can be objective on the matter.
[/quote]

I play the class in another way, a way that happens to incorporate a CC move and use it fairly regularly, then when defenses are down I play in exactly the same way.

[quote]
Yes, how not. Let's change all classes to other ones just to increase difficulty. It seems very good to me, it's the most obvious thing to do just to increase  challenge. [/quote]

What other class does the adept turn into? Is there another class that throws a black hole at somebody that stops them from moving and eats away at their shields, then sucks them into the air when their shields are gone?

Which one is it?  Is it the soldier?

[quote]
And yet Singularity (as I've repeated an hundred times already) is one of the only two Biotics that are not so affected by the restrictions. To be true Singularity still has a reduced effect because the control time is very low in respect to normal, still it retains a bit of its CC role, a luxury the other 80% of Biotic skills don't have.

Good work on taking as an example the ONLY Biotic skill (apart Warp) that it's not concerned so much at higher difficulties, as I always repeated. Don't act smart, please, I ask you kindly. I don't think that to do a bit of CC I should HAVE to take Singularity. This is an imposition.[/quote]

You can't not have singularity, you start the game with it. It's the class skill.  It's supposed to be used a lot.   You don't even have the option to remove it from your keybinds on the 360.   It works 100% as a strong CC ability, which is even more important because this is in a game with almost no CC that works through defenses whatsoever.

A single singularity controls someone for long enough to remove the shields from everything but harbinger level enemies.  It might be the only CC we have through defenses, but it works REALLY well.  What more do you need?  Once the defenses are down, then you can use the other stuff and branch out.

I took the example because it's a good example.   I have pull, throw, and singularity keybound.  I have a CC skill for defenses, a CC skill for no defenses and for setting up kills, and a skill for smashing people into walls and throwing them into places and off of things.    With any squad makeup once the singularity flies, defenses start going down often faster than I can finish people off.  (It was amazing with grunt and jacob!  I would just waltz into fights behind them and cc/kill all the people they scattered and stripped.)

[quote]
But also Singuarity is not a real CC skill. As you have shown it's use in higher difficulties is not as a real CC skill (since its duration and usefulness as a _true_ CC role is VERY limited) but only as a mean to follow up with a Warp to detonate a bunch of targets. As you see, the role of the skill is changed. You don't use it no more as the PRIMARY objective of removing targets from the fights, but to do damage to them. While the effect is the same the motive of use its changed.[/quote] [/quote]

Short lived CC is still CC.   CC that is used as a setup for damage is still CC.    The main objective for CCIng an enemy in any game is ultimately to do damage and kill them.    Also, a lot of times I simply CC something and then turn to other enemies and fight them instead of the thing I CC'd.  (This is the use of CC that you are refering to, I believe.)   This worked to great effect against collectors, because if I killed harbinger first, he'd just take control of other collectors, but if I left him in a singularity, he'd leave me alone while I killed his buddies.
----------------

But all this aside, I'm starting to think I might be the only person who played an adept on insanity  (well, roxlimm here agrees and played it on hardcore, so there's that) and actually enjoyed it, so I guess that alone invalidates my opinion.   It's weird, because in the vanguard complaint threads, there's actually a bunch of people defending them, and for adepts it's pretty much just me and rox.

I guess we're the only people in the community who played it on insanity/hardcore and saw the same stuff in it that christina did?

That probably means they will change it, whether in a patch or in ME3, whether I like it or not.   I will take some perverse enjoyment in feeling like the class was tailored and balanced specifically for my enjoyment and play through the game a couple more times so that I can enjoy it before that happens.

So, you guys win on that front, I suppose.  I'll chill out on the topic unless I see some other people actually defending the class as it is, in which case I'll support them and chime in again.

Modifié par Soruyao, 11 février 2010 - 02:32 .

[Flash_in_the_flesh]

KainXavier wrote...

• Why do melee attacks do so little damage?
• Why have burst-fire Assault Rifles when there are burst-fire SMG's?

- Because hitting enemy in an armor or synthetic with your elbow can't really hurt. Husks on the other hand just don't care.
- Assault Rifles are both effective against shields and armor, while SMG is only effective against shields. Rifles are also more accurate at longer range.

Roxlimn wrote...

 tetracycloide:

do you use Warp Explosion?

allowing them (biotics) to affect defended enemies would make the game way too easy.

Of course we use Warp explosion. We use what little does work. There's no better choice anyway.

Can't you finally try it youself instead of basing on assumptions? Mod the game and try it. There are people who tried guncentric classes and both modded and unmodded adept. They speak basing on their gameplay experience, not what they think would happen.

Without shields blocking biotics:
Yes, adept becomes more powerful.
No, adept is not overpowered.
Yes, adept finally do the job described in the lore, ME2 trailers and ME1.
Yes, soldier and infiltrator still rule insanity.

Modifié par Flash_in_the_flesh, 11 février 2010 - 02:33 .