1428 réponses à ce sujet

[Leetabix]

I went through the game on normal difficulty so that is my only exsperance so far , for combat I found that I only used warp , by the time I had removed shields by getting a team mate to use overload , me to use my heavy warp nemisis spec power , I'd just shoot the enemy in the face with the assault riffle. which made me wonder , I should have just got my team to spec for warp and overload , and for me to just take whatever the best gun class is.



I think the only time I remember being able to use biotecs was with the swam of husk guys.

[KainXavier]

Flash_in_the_flesh wrote...
Because hitting enemy in an armor or synthetic with your elbow can't really hurt. Husks on the other hand just don't care.

My qualm with melee attacks is that they seem like they should be a core part of a Vanguard's arsenal as that class features the Charge ability.  However, Vanguard's don't seem to do any more damage than any other class in that aspect and I can't imagine the other classes using it all that often.  So why have it?

Assault Rifles are both effective against shields and armor, while SMG is only effective against shields. Rifles are also more accurate at longer range.

Here, I was talking more about my frustration after acquiring an Assault Rifle with my Vanguard character.  Assault Rifles seem to be really damn useful for the Vanguard class to have in Mass Effect 2 yet the very first one available to the player seems not much different than an SMG.  Also, while SMG's are normally limited to damaging shields, you can switch ammo types to aid with damaging armor.  I almost think it would have been a better idea to just start the Vanguard class off with a Heavy Pistol, an Assault Rifle, and a Shotgun.

[Roxlimn]

Flash_in_the_Flesh:



I'm not normally the suspicious kind, but frankly, I find it hard to believe that you or others here on this here thread really do use Warp Explosion much. For one thing, you can't use Warp Explosion just spamming Warp because it requires you to detonate another power. This requires you to use either Pull or Sing and to know how to use Pull.



Most players who are posting here voicing lack of satisfaction with these powers show a profound ignorance of their qualities, which should be apparent even on limited use. Singularity obviously stuns all targets (and is highlighted as "usable" on any targets). Pull, Throw, and Warp also show remarkable tracking around cover.



Secondly, I find it hard to believe that anyone would think that Adepts cannot use Pull or Throw effectively when they use Pull regularly to set up the Warp Explosion. Occasionally, using Pull will target an enemy who already has half or more of his Health gone, without any enemies nearby. It is not optimal to use Warp in that case because the cooldown is long. Using Throw for the insta-kill or long lockout or Pull again on another target, or switching to gun to strip defenses is usually a great idea, even if you could use Warp for defense stripping.



Why?



Because using Warp to strip defenses means that you can be caught waiting on the cooldown before you can initiate Pull-Warp. Using your gun to strip enemy defenses means that you can ask Jack or Jacob to Pull as soon as the defenses go down, and then Warp for the instant Explosion.



What I'm saying here is that if you're really setting up the Warp Explosion consistently, you will encounter a variety of circumstances in which you're NOT spamming Warp for defense stripping OR killing, and moreover, will naturally encounter situations where Throw and Singularity reveal themselves to be superior options to Warp.



I'm not a big fan of baseless assumptions myself, so if you'll direct me to the ini file modification thread, I'll go look and see if it improves gameplay or whatnot, but I hope you can see why I'm skeptical about whether or not you guys really are using Warp Explosion.



The thing is the most powerful AoE in the game. Apart from throwing people to the ground, locking them out of firing their weapons, it also does 200 base Heavy Warp damage to a 5 meter radius, or 160 to 7 meters - easily the largest, most damaging power in the entire game.



I've been alternating between Sentinel and Adept, and I have to say, I'm missing Warp Explosion a LOT when playing Sentinel. Being able to spam (Area) Overload instead of Warp at synthetic and shielded targets doesn't make up for it at all. Even after stripping Shields with Overload, I have to kill every enemy one at a time, usually with them firing back at me. And I don't have Adrenaline Rush to help with scoring headshots.



The game really does go much faster when you're blasting guys apart with 5 meter radius killing blasts. It's gotten so that I never leave the ship without Jacob or Jack for Pull duty, preferably Jack because Jacob's Pull cooldowns are horrendously long.

[baller7345]

Why does everyone assume that just because something can't be used on something until its at health its useless. I haven't played an adept through on Insanity (I'm getting ready too), but my Engineer had almost as many situational abilites that were "uselss." I had both Full Cryo Freeze and Neural Shock...both of which stun/freeze enemies and 1point of neural shock works much like throw or pull would on a defended enemy by just stunning it (it also instantly kills husks).

Those two abilites which are more or less useless on stuff with armor were some of the most used abilities I had. They would help me retreat if I was getting flanked or let me advance at a much faster rate. Just because you can't affect everything with a power at all times doesn't make it useless you just have to find a way to use it. Have we all lost are creativity, if throw/pull/shockwave doesn't work against and enemy that has armor/shields/barrier then find a use for it...and please don't tell me that they have 80% armor and 20% health because after all the times I one shot defensives just to have them take 2 or more hits to health I won't believe that.

I reallly don't see the reason to argue over having a class play the way you want it to, or the way you think it should. The point is that there are people that are playing it and playing it well, and aren't using just warp/singularity. Maybe the adept in this game isn't for you but it works just fine for other people. If you think they suck now then just don't use them.

Modifié par baller7345, 11 février 2010 - 06:03 .

[Gemini1179]

Throw Field is great when you are swarmed by Husks.

[Flash_in_the_flesh]

baller7345 wrote...

Why does everyone assume that just because something can't be used on something until its at health its useless.

And here we go again back to the same argument, running in circles. Few pages ago someone concluded with the same argument. I do use pull and throw and I'm definitely using singularity. If I use singularity and then use warp than it's impossible not to use warp explosion because that's how it works. You are probably doing the same but please tell me, how many times you use biotics other than singularity and warp and when you use them, is it helpful, necessary or just for fun as a finisher? See that only singularity and warp really matters?

[baller7345]

Flash_in_the_flesh wrote...

baller7345 wrote...

Why does everyone assume that just because something can't be used on something until its at health its useless.

And here we go again back to the same argument, running in circles. Few pages ago someone concluded with the same argument. I do use pull and throw and I'm definitely using singularity. If I use singularity and then use warp than it's impossible not to use warp explosion because that's how it works. You are probably doing the same but please tell me, how many times you use biotics other than singularity and warp and when you use them, is it helpful, necessary or just for fun as a finisher? See that only singularity and warp really matters?

I wouldn't say its only for fun or just for a finisher.  I'd see them as a combination of both and I figure I'd be able to make them helpful and still maintain their use as finishers.  Throw and Pull can be great at stopping charging enemies, remove cover, help you from getting flanked, or just buying some time to let your shields recharge.  Now I did say in my previous post that I haven't played an adept on insanity yet but I also did say that I used 2 abilities that my engineer had that could be considered a waste much more than incinerate/overload.  Now I could be wrong since but from reading all the posts and watching some videos I could see me using throw, pull, and shockwave in a similar fashion.

Again I might be wrong about this but this is what I think at the time.  If this thread is still going after I get into the adept play and I happen to change my mind I'll admit it...well lets hope the thread isn't still going though.

Modifié par baller7345, 11 février 2010 - 06:26 .

[Amioran]

[quote]Soruyao wrote...

What, because you need to use something other than a sniper rifle once in awhile?  Being a sniper who relies on his squad to take down defenses doesn't make you into another class.  It makes you a sniper who has to work a little harder to not get overrun.[/quote]

It changes the class because you have A) to rely on other squad members to do a thing you should be able to do in ANY circumstance, not only on some and it restricts the use only to enemies that have no need of being "sniped". You see, there's a motive why I chosen the sniper as an example for the CC role. One of the primary objectves of both, in fact, is the concern of using the battlefied in a strategic way, removing high treath targets before all else (one way or another, in the case of the sniper killing, in the case on the CC disabling them).

Making the sniper rifle work only on non protected enemies means that they are no more high treath targets.



[quote]Of course, the rifle would still work perfectly fine against mechs and every boss level enemy in the game, once the initial layer of defenses is taken off, which means they would still be the best class to bring to a boss fight.[/quote]

Shame that when that "initial layer of defenses" is off those enemies are no more an high treath since their status is completely changed. I make you an example: 30 level fighter, very high treath enemy, Wizard level drain him to bring him at level 10. Do you think that since the fighter was an high treath before he still remains the same also when he is no more powerful than a critter?


[quote]
Rely your role?   You mean change?    I'm just suggesting the class be a little less solo friendly than it currently is.[/quote]

That's another thing. Increasing difficulty is all fine and good if you don't change the role of the class in the process.

[quote]
Well, I lock down enemies with singularity and then my team shoots their defenses off or uses their abilities to take them off.  Then I finish them off, sometimes by CCing them and making them easier to kill, sometimes by pulling them to me and punching them to death, and sometimes by throwing them into the great beyond.  Singularity acts like a stun on protected targets, and last time I checked, stuns are CC.[/quote]

You see, you continue telling me how you howercome impositions, but I don't care. Just the fact that you HAVE to use Singularity to do a bit of CC is deprecable. Why if I don't want to use the skill? Apart the fact that what you call CC is only (again) a mean to do more damage, only that.

[quote]How often do I have to use an ability for it to be spam? I have time for 1-3 fast cooldown attacks during the duration of a singularity, depending on how poweful the target i'm locking down is.  I guess you could call that spam, but I regularly use pull and throw as well.  I'm not just going singularity+singularity+singularity all day.[/quote]

You use Pull and Throw against enemies that are no more high treath targets. Same in 70% of the cases also for Singularity. The primary scope and role of those skills are so compromised (do you rember the "high treaths target as fast as you can" primary parameter of a REAL cc skill, don't you?) and while you can use them perfectly for other things (and I never objected to this) still their use is changed.



[quote]Shooting at someone I've CC'd doesn't make me not a CC class, it makes me a class that CC's and then dpses what they CC'd.[/quote]

It depends if the PRIMARY use of the CC skill is to control or to do damage. The problem is that your primary use is to do damage in 80% of cases. Tell me how many times you have used for example Singularity without following it with Warp, or you have used Pull just to lock a target down without either firing at it. If you did you just wasted a skill since the targets were not high treaths one, so control on them was pointless.

[quote]
Actually, yes, that is me contradicting myself.  I thought that you did need to bring specific squad members.  Then I actually tried some missions with grunt and jacob and I was pleasantly suprised.   They removed people's defenses by shooting them in the face, and they did it quite well.  (Except for a certain room the pathfinding was screwed up in.)[/quote]

And you want to tell me that you felt the high CC class? Waiting for Jacob and Grunt to strip defenses BEFORE you could actually use 80% of your skills (on targets that don't need them anyway, I must add)? To everyone is own I guess.

Yet I still don't get why the use of Biotics should change between difficulties. All of you that say that Biotics are fine as they are still don't have find a true motive of WHY their behaviour must change. The increased challenge naturally is a poor justification. You don't need to change the way skills behave on the whole just to have an increased difficulty. A playing experience should be consistent between increased and lowered challenges.

[quote]
So how would you increase the difficulty for an adept, if they can cc everyone from the start and everything dies fairly quickly?   How do you make sure they actually die sometimes?   Do you just crank up damage so they have to spend 90% of their time behind cover regenerating their shields?  That doesnt sound fun.  At least now I'm always doing something.[/quote]

Firstly they die farly quickly ONLY because they are already at red health when you do the moves you like so much. If you use Singularity + Warp (or Pull + Throw) against protected enemies they don't die at all. Actually you just waste two skills. So, you see, just your preamble is wrong.

Then to increase difficulty the way biotics worked in ME1 was actually fine. There were only some combos that were clearly overpowered, but on the whole the way biotics worked was perfectly fine. The role was not changed between difficulties and the Adept was not more powerful than many other classes (and the same happens if you modify your ini file).

Do you know what it is funny? The fact that you (not you personally, but on the whole) say that making biotics work on not protected enemies will make the Adept a God, but yet it doesn't seem to me that at lower difficulties this happens. Do you think that Adepts at normal difficulty are overpowered in respect to other classes? I don't think so. So from where all these concerns arise?



[quote]The defenses solution may not have been the most elegant one, but I have yet to hear a single suggestion for how to balance it besides "Make it the way it was in ME1!"   I know I can't think of a better way to do it, but then again, I'm no game designer.[/quote]

And why one should come with a different suggestion? They worked fine in ME1. Making biotics works on ALL enemies only with lowered effects based on rank is obviously the best solution (as it happens in almost EVERY rpg). I don't understand why one should have the need to come up with another idea if this is clearly the best one.




[quote][Short lived CC is still CC.   Having to put more effort into maintaining CC on a certain high priority target doesn't suddenly make it so that you're not doing CC, it just means your CC is less powerful.  (Or at least that the enemy is very powerful.)[/quote]

In fact the emphasis was not put on the "short lived" but on the way the skill is used. That the duration is vastly decreased is a concern because duration is more important for CC skills than for others.



[quote]In insanity mode, I spend a lot of time applying a move that CC's a single target and everything close to them.   Am I using CC a little differently, or with a slightly different focus on what the CC is supposed to accomplish?  That I can agree with.[/quote]

See? It was not difficult.

[quote]
I play the class in another way, a way that happens to incorporate a CC move and use it fairly regularly, then when defenses are down I play in exactly the same way.[/quote]

No, you don't, because the primary concern of a CC role is lost. What remains is only gimmicks or finishing moves because high treath targets are no more.

[quote]
What other class does the adept turn into? Is there another class that throws a black hole at somebody that stops them from moving and eats away at their shields, then sucks them into the air when their shields are gone?[/quote]

The role becomes less concerned on controlling the battlefield and more at doing damage or finishing enemies. It is not a bad role per se, it's only that people where accustomed on playing the Adept as a real CC class in ME1 and I can understand why they feel a bit "cheated".



[quote]
You can't not have singularity, you start the game with it. It's the class skill.  It's supposed to be used a lot.   You don't even have the option to remove it from your keybinds on the 360.   It works 100% as a strong CC ability, which is even more important because this is in a game with almost no CC that works through defenses whatsoever.[/quote]

The fact that you start with Singularity what it means? If I prefer to use Pull or Throw for example what tells me that I "must use Singularity a lot" instead of them? Where it is written? Area Pull is much similar to Singularity. Shockwave is a very good skill in theory, while in practice on higher difficulties it serves no purpose whatsoever (if not to have a laugh the first two times).



[quote]A single singularity controls someone for long enough to remove the shields from everything but harbinger level enemies.  It might be the only CC we have through defenses, but it works REALLY well.  What more do you need?  Once the defenses are down, then you can use the other stuff and branch out.[/quote]

And so to have a glimpse at CC you HAVE to use Singularity on higher difficulties? Why? Apart the fact that it's not that simple because, again, Singularity at higher difficulties is for 80% of the times used as a combo with Warp and not surely to control high treath targets; as this role, in fact, it leaves much to be desired. Further evidence is the fact that you say "to remove the shields" instead of saying "to lock out of the fight strong enemies".



[quote]I took the example because it's a good example.[/quote]

You took that example because you knew much too well that it's the only one (of the only two) that is not concerned by the issue. The smart part is the fact that I always said that and you knew also this. It's similar to using the Sentinel as proof that Biotics are fine.

 

[quote]I have pull, throw, and singularity keybound.  I have a CC skill for defenses, a CC skill for no defenses and for setting up kills, and a skill for smashing people into walls and throwing them into places and off of things.[/quote] 

CC skill for defenses? CC skill for no defense? LOL, of what the hell are you talking about? Then you insist on telling me the skills role are not changed... omg.

[quote]
Short lived CC is still CC.   CC that is used as a setup for damage is still CC.    The main objective for CCIng an enemy in any game is ultimately to do damage and kill them. [/quote]

Why I always have to repeat myself? It's the way you use the skills that it's different. While the ultimate role of all skills is to kill the enemy the way the skills accomplish it is what defines them. In your game using an Adept you use CC skills just to do damage, and while fine for you this actually mean that their role is changed, no matter if you like it or not.

Modifié par Amioran, 11 février 2010 - 06:32 .

[Roxlimn]

Flash_in_the_Flesh:



Waiting on the ini file referral. It'd be great if you can direct me to the information for the necessary changes. Much obliged.



Also, it is possible to target an enemy that still has defenses locked down by Singularity and NOT trigger Warp Explosion. As far as I can tell, it only triggers once the enemy is floating. In any case, I don't find it all that useful to combo Warp with Sing, since Sing by itself is usually powerful enough an adjuctive power that I can leave whatever guy is locked down by it floating around and deal with others. It also rapidly floats the target out, so unless I can time the defense stripping precisely, it's harder to catch multiple enemies in Warp Explosion.



For me, anyway.

[Soruyao]

I still disagree with pretty much every point in that, but it would be a waste of time, since you think a class that spends most of it's time ccing things isn't a cc class, and that adepts were fine in ME1. "Singularity is used more on higher difficulties! The role has changed from a cc class that uses every skill right off the bat to a cc class that uses one skill off the bat and finishes with other skills! Never mind that the skill they use off the bat actually is CC!"



But whatever, it all comes down to this: I'm glad there are devs that think the way I do, because they churned out a game that I highly enjoy.



If they change it to mollify the mob of people who don't like it, then I don't fault them since there are people who don't like it.



Oh and about the melee discussion: I'm starting to sound like a broken record here, but I think melee attacks are very useful and satisfying. They're a great way to finish off something that's knocked down without using ammo or putting yourself in a gcd. It's also very satisfying to singularity someone and melee their defenses off while they're stunned.



In the vanguard thread, most of the more skilled insanity charge vanguards were saying that most of the time it's better to go charge>shotgun>melee with the slower shotguns, because you can get some extra damage in while you're waiting on the next shotgun shot, so melee is actually very useful for a vanguard.

[Flash_in_the_flesh]

Roxlimn wrote...

Flash_in_the_Flesh:

Waiting
on the ini file referral. It'd be great if you can direct me to the
information for the necessary changes. Much obliged.

Sorry, I missed that post. Didn't know you are waiting for ini from me.

Here's how I play: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=JU5H8AC8

Changes:
- powers work on shields,
- non-combat storm stamina increased just to save time when running around,
- enemies regenerate shields just like Shepard, armor does not regenerate because it doesn't make sense,
- Shepard auto-health-regeneration 100 times slower, now you have to use medigel,
- double speed of planet scanning to save time
- logo movies removed,
- best rated preset faces on character creation from www.masseffect2faces.com

And let me repeat myself about the result:

Flash_in_the_flesh wrote...

Without shields blocking biotics:
Yes, adept becomes more powerful.
No, adept is not overpowered.
Yes, adept finally do the job described in the lore, ME2 trailers and ME1.
Yes, soldier and infiltrator still rule insanity.

When you wait for cooldown and disable one enemy after another, gun classes just headshot enemies.
All skills are finally worth learning.

Modifié par Flash_in_the_flesh, 12 février 2010 - 10:15 .

[Amioran]

Soruyao wrote...

I still disagree with pretty much every point in that, but it would be a waste of time, since you think a class that spends most of it's time ccing things isn't a cc class, and that adepts were fine in ME1. "Singularity is used more on higher difficulties! The role has changed from a cc class that uses every skill right off the bat to a cc class that uses one skill off the bat and finishes with other skills! Never mind that the skill they use off the bat actually is CC!"

Thank you, as always, to neither have done the effort to understand something of what I said. I noticed a trend in how you reply to me: you simply discard the points that are difficult to address from your perspective and just continue hitting the nail on those two or three that you feel confortable with.

But whatever, it all comes down to this: I'm glad there are devs that think the way I do, because they churned out a game that I highly enjoy.

If you say so... For me the devs simply tried to address the issue of Biotics in a way that worked fine on lower difficulties, only that the thing got out of hand on hardcore and insanity since to increase difficulty they just increased protections enemies have from only special enemies to all. They just decided to go with the less evil since the majority of players play at maximum till Veteran.

There are a lot of contradictions on the point you people make. Firstly you say that the game is balanced for normal, yet you say that Insanity is fine as it is. Since you think normal "balanced" I don't get why you can declare that Insanity is fine as it is since the gameplay is completely changed. Secondly you insist that Biotics works fine on high difficulties and people that don't like how the Adept plays on them should play at veteran or below. Since you think that higher difficulties are fine why I should change difficulty if challenge is not a concern? And thirdly you continue telling the tale that the role is not changed, yet in all explanations on the  use of Biotics you elaborated it's clear as the sun that the control aspect of the skills is not the primary one, but becomes only a mean to do something else.

Modifié par Amioran, 12 février 2010 - 11:09 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I love it how everyone complains about biotics in ME2, though I do wonder how many people in this thread have actually finished the game on insanity. ( You know where it actually maters ) and aren't just whining cause squad members like Jack and Jacob simply and utterly suck.

From a PC perspective, biotics are NOT useless. True kinetic barriers are a problem but that is why you have a sub-machine gun for ( and a Machine Gun will tear through any shield with ease, unlike a soldier's assault rifle - unless you got a collector one ).

It is true that as an adept most of the time you are spamming warp and using your SMG to take down shields, but don't think for a second a that a soldier or infiltrator has it ANY different.

As a soldier your using your assault rifle to take down shields, with the help of concussive shots here and there, once shields are down you switch to your sniper and using adrenaline rush you take headshots.

Your special ammo abilities are decent for a time, until you get Warp or Armor Piercing ammo, and realize that disruptor, incendiary and cryo ammo are useless compared to those two listed above.

As a Infiltrator, your using "gasps" your SMG 70% of the game, along with tactical cloak when you can afford to not have your shields regen for a time. Once enemy shields are down then you switch to your sniper and take headshots, while spamming tactical cloak.

Conclusion: For all those morons who honestly think Soldiers and Infiltrators have it easier then adepts and vanguards do please play any of the two classes on insanity and then talk. Your forced to spam use one or two abilities and then taking shots at enemy. Soldiers and Infiltrators do the EXACT same thing as adepts, except that if you can't take headshots ( aka having some good skill with shooters ) you won't be making any progress as S/I. So ye Biotics have it ****ing easier, thank you.

Regarding your Biotic team members:

Thane is extremely useful with his power/weapon combo, one of the best team members if you ask me. Samara will weaken your enemies with her reave, or take down their shields with her SMG. Morinth will provide free cannon fodder by turning your enemies against each other and Miranda is probably the strongest damned party member you can ever have in most situations.

Jack is mostly useless, though if you want to get another special power then do get her with squad warp ammo, will help a great deal. Jacob is simply the worst squad member in the whole game, because his powers suck, and he uses a shotgun.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 12 février 2010 - 12:02 .

[imemoria]

Amioran wrote...

Soruyao wrote...

I still disagree with pretty much every point in that, but it would be a waste of time, since you think a class that spends most of it's time ccing things isn't a cc class, and that adepts were fine in ME1. "Singularity is used more on higher difficulties! The role has changed from a cc class that uses every skill right off the bat to a cc class that uses one skill off the bat and finishes with other skills! Never mind that the skill they use off the bat actually is CC!"

Thank you, as always, to neither have done the effort to understand something of what I said. I noticed a trend in how you reply to me: you simply discard the points that are difficult to address from your perspective and just continue hitting the nail on those two or three that you feel confortable with.

But whatever, it all comes down to this: I'm glad there are devs that think the way I do, because they churned out a game that I highly enjoy.

If you say so... For me the devs simply tried to address the issue of Biotics in a way that worked fine on lower difficulties, only that the thing got out of hand on hardcore and insanity since to increase difficulty they just increased protections enemies have from only special enemies to all. They just decided to go with the less evil since the majority of players play at maximum till Veteran.

There are a lot of contradictions on the point you people make. Firstly you say that the game is balanced for normal, yet you say that Insanity is fine as it is. Since you think normal "balanced" I don't get why you can declare that Insanity is fine as it is since the gameplay is completely changed. Secondly you insist that Biotics works fine on high difficulties and people that don't like how the Adept plays on them should play at veteran or below. Since you think that higher difficulties are fine why I should change difficulty if challenge is not a concern? And thirdly you continue telling the tale that the role is not changed, yet in all explanations on the  use of Biotics you elaborated it's clear as the sun that the control aspect of the skills is not the primary one, but becomes only a mean to do something else.

just to note that I support this guy 
btw do you know the level of awareness of bioware on those issues ?

[shumworld]

i like the fact that you have 3 different hot keys for your abilities, but it's kind of useless since all the powers share the same charge meter.

[Flash_in_the_flesh]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I love it how everyone complains about biotics in ME2, though I do wonder how many people in this thread have actually finished the game on insanity. ( You know where it actually maters ) and aren't just whining cause squad members like Jack and Jacob simply and utterly suck.

Please read posts from at least few last pages. You obviously don't know arguments from this thread.

[Flash_in_the_flesh]

imemoria wrote...

btw do you know the level of awareness of bioware on those issues ?

BioWare is aware of the number of disappointed players but won't and can't do anything about it. Game patches serve fixing bugs, not redesigning game mechanics.

[Soruyao]

Amioran wrote...
Thank you, as always, to neither have done the effort to understand something of what I said. I noticed a trend in how you reply to me: you simply discard the points that are difficult to address from your perspective and just continue hitting the nail on those two or three that you feel confortable with.

Why do you always assume that any person who disagrees with you must not understand where you're coming from? It's arrogant.   In fact, I understand where you're coming from enough to know that we're never going to come to a consensus on this issue, so why continue grinding gears on this?    The fact that you feel that the way difficulty worked in ME1 was fine already tells me that we have vastly different expectations about what difficulty should act like, therefore what would please one of us in a difficulty setting will not please the other.

My purpose in responding now is to simply explain where I'm coming from so that it makes more sense, and not to argue anymore.

It's not really an issue for me, since I like the way it is now.  Maybe it'll be the way you like it for ME3.   We'll see what the devs decide.

If you say so... For me the devs simply tried to address the issue of Biotics in a way that worked fine on lower difficulties, only that the thing got out of hand on hardcore and insanity since to increase difficulty they just increased protections enemies have from only special enemies to all. They just decided to go with the less evil since the majority of players play at maximum till Veteran.

There are a lot of contradictions on the point you people make. Firstly you say that the game is balanced for normal, yet you say that Insanity is fine as it is. Since you think normal "balanced" I don't get why you can declare that Insanity is fine as it is since the gameplay is completely changed. Secondly you insist that Biotics works fine on high difficulties and people that don't like how the Adept plays on them should play at veteran or below. Since you think that higher difficulties are fine why I should change difficulty if challenge is not a concern? And thirdly you continue telling the tale that the role is not changed, yet in all explanations on the  use of Biotics you elaborated it's clear as the sun that the control aspect of the skills is not the primary one, but becomes only a mean to do something else.

Actually, I never said the game was balanced around normal mode.   I honestly have never even played normal mode.  I started on hardcore and then played through to horizon on an infiltrator and then decided it was too easy and cranked it up to insanity.  I've been on insanity since.  It's the only mode I have extensive experience with, so that may color my opinions on the matter.

For the second point, my feeling on the matter is that if adepts worked on everything, the challenge would be reduced enough that you'd effectively be playing on normal mode anyway.  The only difference would be the speed at which you can kill people indoors.  (Outdoors you could just walk around chain instakilling everything.)   The difference between normal mode and a modded .ini file seems to just be how long it takes to finish off the things you've CC'd.   I would test it out myself, but alas, I am on a 360.  Such experimentation is closed to me.

Although, I see that someone else in the topic raised difficulty by making health regenerate super slow so that you have to medi-gel yourself.  That would indeed raise difficulty enough to compensate for the change, but I wonder if most players would appreciate a setup like that.  I'm partial to regenerating health myself.

For the third point: This is the thing that we're having the most trouble with.  I think it's due to the fact that we have slightly different definitions about what a CC class is.   I feel that any ability that stops an enemy from moving and attacking for long enough to do anything else is CC.    A cc class for me is a class that spends a lot of their time locking down enemies using a CC move, regardless of what reason they have for using that CC move.   (CC can be used either offensively and defensively, and some moves lend themselves to offensive strategy better than defensive strategy.   I think the problem you're seeing in how singularity works might be related to this.   Has singularity becoming more offensively oriented CC significantly changed the role of the class for you?)

For instance, in WoW, when a rogue stuns an enemy and then cuts them to pieces, that stun is CC.  When a mage gets attacked and turns his enemy into a sheep and runs away, that is also CC, even though the intent is very different.  (And indeed a sheep is difficult to use offensively because any damage will break it.)   In PVP, CC never lasts longer than 10 seconds, and rarely lasts longer than 2, but the classes that have it have a huge advantage over the ones that don't.   On an aside, if any class in WoW had an ability like singularity, it would be incredibly overpowered.    That doesn't prove anything at all, but I find the thought amusing.

-edit-

I think that the best solution to this whole situation game design wise is to give the players more freedom to decide how they want the game to challenge them.   Maybe make there be a ME1 style classic mode that acts like the modded .ini file flash mentioned earlier, a ME2 style that plays the way the game plays now, a mode where you get swarmed by an army of weaker enemies, and maybe a mode where every other enemy pack has things like ymir mechs and vanguards.    It would probably take a lot of design effort to impliment that though, so what we're probably going to end up with is something tailored to please the greatest number of people.

(My money is still on them implimenting a mana bar for adepts in ME3.  Most gamers know intimately how to deal with that type of resource system, it's a well known system that would be very easy to impliment, and it would give them another knob to turn to change difficulty modes.   I hope I'm wrong, but we should mark my words now so I can say I called it if it happens.   )

Modifié par Soruyao, 12 février 2010 - 12:36 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Flash_in_the_flesh wrote...
Please read posts from at least few last pages. You obviously don't know arguments from this thread.

First, how about your read my whole post. Its obvious you didn't. And you obviously don't know squat about playing a soldier or infilitrator on insanity.

Your saying that the soldier and infiltrator would still remain the best, even on insanity with barriers NOT blocking biotics ( which btw in lore they DO block, as shown in the two novels of the game ) that is a massive bull****.

First off, the power of the soldier and infilitrator comes from the Sniper Rifle, and the sniper doesn't allow you to one hit kill the vast majority of enemies on insanity ( headshot or no, even with tactical cloak )

If biotics were given the power to use their abilities through shields, then they would just decimate everything in their path, that is a fact. Contrary to popular belief you don't own **** up as Soldier/Infiltrator if you don't play smart and if you don't have the skill to shot properly.

[Canez fan 1988]

Biotics are not useless. I've always have found a way to utilize biotics in every combat scenario.

[Murmillos]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

If biotics were given the power to use their abilities through shields, then they would just decimate everything in their path, that is a fact. Contrary to popular belief you don't own **** up as Soldier/Infiltrator if you don't play smart and if you don't have the skill to shot properly.

Not really, it would still take two-three uses of biotics to get a clean kill, which has a few seconds or longer cool down between each use.  Which would still take as much time to take as a solider/infiltrator getting their headshots.

And no **** about you arn't going to own **** if you don't play smart with ANY class.  Got any other useless wisdom for us we don't already know?

[Vena_86]

They are not fun to use on higher difficulty and not as usefull as normal weapons. Playing an Adept is much less fun then it could be. And gaming is about fun right?

[Costin_Razvan]

Biotics would become the strongest not because they would kill faster, but because they would disable entire groups using Singularity, Improved Shockwave, Throw and Pull Field. It wouldn't matter how fast you can kill your enemies when most of them wouldn't even be able to get one or two shots off.  Adepts can also learn to use snipers in the collector cruiser, and lets face it, the sniper choice is the best one for an adept.

They are not fun to use on higher difficulty and not as usefull as
normal weapons. Playing an Adept is much less fun then it could be. And
gaming is about fun right?

 

I played through this game on insanity 3 times ( on my 4th time now ) I had fun every time and I used a different class every playthrough. There are situations where as an adept you feel like your bashing your head against a wall and wish you had another class, it goes for any class, be it soldier, vanguard, adept, infilitrator or engineer.

People are pissed about adepts is that they feel they got the short end of the stick. In the main storyline ( as in collector missions and loyalty quests ) there is a balance of situations of where any specific class is good or bad. There are situations where as a soldier which are MUCH easier if you had biotic powers ( reaper ship anyone? ) and there cases where you feel your bashing your head against the wall.

However that balance is offset by that in most secondary missions you fight enemies with shields, which does favor certain classes over others.

And no **** about you arn't going to own **** if you don't play smart
with ANY class.  Got any other useless wisdom for us we don't already
know?

There is much playing smart when you can disable entire groups which just one ability, then finishing them off with a few shorts right?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 12 février 2010 - 01:45 .

[Murmillos]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Biotics would become the strongest not because they would kill faster, but because they would disable entire groups using Singularity, Improved Shockwave, Throw and Pull Field. It wouldn't matter how fast you can kill your enemies when most of them wouldn't even be able to get one or two shots off.  Adepts can also learn to use snipers in the collector cruiser, and lets face it, the sniper choice is the best one for an adept.

They are not fun to use on higher difficulty and not as usefull as
normal weapons. Playing an Adept is much less fun then it could be. And
gaming is about fun right?

 

I played through this game on insanity 3 times ( on my 4th time now ) I had fun every time and I used a different class every playthrough. There are situations where as an adept you feel like your bashing your head against a wall and wish you had another class, it goes for any class, be it soldier, vanguard, adept, infilitrator or engineer.

Some how, you got in your head that most of us want to turn biotics (manly adepts) into one shot - insta-cooldown - no global cool down - killing machines.

Most of us do not mind MINOR limiations on use of skill. 
Throw tossing a shield enemy half way across the map - not what we are asking for.
Throw only knocking a shielded enemy down and keeping him down for 2-3 seconds - ok.
Throw not doing a single damn thing - not ok.

Lift lifting a shieled enemy into the stratosphere - not what we are asking for.
Lift lifting a shield enemy slighty up out of cover - ok.
Lift not doing a single damn thing - not ok.

Do you understand where we are comming from, and what we are asking for?

Modifié par Murmillos, 12 février 2010 - 01:50 .

[Flash_in_the_flesh]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Flash_in_the_flesh wrote...
Please read posts from at least few last pages. You obviously don't know arguments from this thread.

1. First,
how about your read my whole post. Its obvious you didn't. And you
obviously don't know squat about playing a soldier or infilitrator on
insanity.

2. Your saying that the soldier and infiltrator would
still remain the best, even on insanity with barriers NOT blocking
biotics ( which btw in lore they DO block, as shown in the two novels
of the game ) that is a massive bull****.

3. First off, the power
of the soldier and infilitrator comes from the Sniper Rifle, and the
sniper doesn't allow you to one hit kill the vast majority of enemies
on insanity ( headshot or no, even with tactical cloak )

4. If
biotics were given the power to use their abilities through shields,
then they would just decimate everything in their path, that is a fact.
Contrary to popular belief you don't own **** up as Soldier/Infiltrator
if you don't play smart and if you don't have the skill to shot
properly.

1. Did I insulted you in any way? Do you know how many times it was repeated that biotics are not useless and everybody agree with it? Adding groundless accussations won't make your arguments any more convincing.

2. OK,
massive bull****. That's a valid argument. As for the lore I hope you
see the difference between kinetic barriers, biotics shields and
physical armor.

3. Who said that sniper rifles one hit kills enemies? Can you quote it please?

4. Could you please treat us like we treat you? I'm not assuming from the start that you don't know a **** about playing on insanity and you can't play smart. If aiming and playing "smart" is your main issue than I can only advise you to practice bit more. Besides only a child would have a problem with hitting enemies with slow time powers. Also whole this statement is subjective opinion based on your assumptions.