1428 réponses à ce sujet

[tommythetomcat]

mawmaw17 wrote...

So the process of combat for a biotic is:
1. Disable shields (ie Overload, weapons fire, etc.)
2. Use Warp on armor to weaken it then use weapons fire etc.
3. Use Biotic power appropriate to deal with target (ex. Throw for single and singularity for multiple targets) and use weapons fire to finish off.

So what do we make of this?

Too complex for most people who just want to go PEW PEW PEW and win the battle.

[kab]

Stop trying to argue and instead ask politely what has been portrayed as inaccurate information. If you try to be confrontational then no one is going to want to discuss anything with you.

I don't want to argue I want her to back up her claims. That's not something that should need to be asked, anyone involving themselves in a debate like this ought to be volunteering it in the first place. To involve yourself, make a statement that people are making inaccurate claims, fail to identify a single one, very strongly imply people complaining are wrong, again without offering anything in support of that, then say you won't offer any evidence in support of your statement because you don't want to get involved is just plain absurd. I'm sorry, being a developer at my hands down favorite game company and being involved with a game that so far I like doesn't excuse you from the expectations I have from anyone engaging in discourse or debate, especially when coming out in clear opposition to the people complaining about a system you designed.

[mawmaw17]

But i do see the point where people are coming from because during the entire process you are firing your weapon to weaken it. The problem being why invest so much into powers that are ineffective for 2 of the 3 parts of combat when you can take a class that have powers that effective throughout the majority of the combat process like a soldier.

[finc.loki]

Rodeolio wrote...

Thanks Christina, I appreciate the direct reply, and I understand the no-win situation you're in as far as posting specifics and getting debated to death by angry fans :-)

I do have just one more request: you said, "My only intent in posting here was to state, as I've stated, that some of the information presented as fact in this discussion is simply not true."

Can you please be specific about *exactly what information is incorrect*? Rules clarifications don't seem out of line for you to provide here -- they're not the same as gameplay advice. If there are specific things being said here that are wrong, setting the record straight would be very much appreciated.

Otherwise, it will only increase the frustration among the people whom you're calling incorrect (without actually correcting them), and the people like myself who just want to understand the actual situation before committing to a class choice.

Could be something as simple as there are no inaccuracies, hence she can't back up the claim.
No one said you can't beat the game on insanity with an adept, sure you can.

The whole issue is that you can't use most of the biotic powers on higher levels until armor/shield is down, and when that happens the biotics are redundant and pointless since a shot or two do the job.
Or the squad mates kill your target that you want to use biotics on.

Hence from this we can draw the conclusion that playing as an adept on higher difficulty you effectively lose the class specific reason to play the class.

The reason people want to play as adept is for the fun factor of the "magical" abilities.
What they should have done is simply let us have the biotic powers but change the effectivness or raise the damage and health ability of the enemies.

It IS a serious design fault to remove the fun from the player, that is never the solution to making the game harder.

At the time when they made it this way it might have seemed perfectly fine.
The QA department and the game play department might have been thinking mostly, "can we beat the player beat it on hard this way, or is it buggy".

Like the expression  " sometimes you can't se the forest for all the trees" fit really well.
They have been playing and testing the game for so long that they kinda lose the ability to discern certain areas.

When I first got my car licence I thought it was SOO much fun to drive, now it sometimes is a chore or just a daily occurance.

I hope Christina understands what I mean.

The gameplay team might consist of 20 people, us customers that feel "hey something is wrong or it isn't working" probably number in the thousands or more.
Sure you're the designers and you did an awesome game, that doesn't mean that everything is perfect and always without fault.

Patches are not only for CTD bugs, they are also for game CHANGES.

This is all constructive criticism and not something to to with the people.
The game is fantastic but some areas need change.

This and the helmet toggle seems to be the biggest issue amongst the players.

I can design a beautiful house, but if it has not doors what point is it to the house?


Anyways, it all sound so negative, but the game is great and I want you guys to know that.
Still don't just sweep issues under the carpet, by saying it is a design decision, that just sounds like what the poster above said "the game works cause I say so".

[Junebug88]

Adept class really shines when you learn how to effectively use it. I mean just lifting an enemy in the air and then throwing them clear across the map is like the most epic thing i have ever seen. I seriously cant believe people here are actually saying Christina Norman screwed up on the combat system. That's a joke.

[Murmillos]

Junebug88 wrote...

Adept class really shines when you learn how to effectively use it. I mean just lifting an enemy in the air and then throwing them clear across the map is like the most epic thing i have ever seen. I seriously cant believe people here are actually saying Christina Norman screwed up on the combat system. That's a joke.

Did you read the thread.

Insanity, shields.  Most biotic powers don't work.  Why?

[kab]

Adept class really shines when you learn how to effectively use it. I mean just lifting an enemy in the air and then throwing them clear across the map is like the most epic thing i have ever seen. I seriously cant believe people here are actually saying Christina Norman screwed up on the combat system. That's a joke.

The problem is you you can't do that on anything above Normal. Everything has shields and armor which renders just about all biotics either completely useless or so weak that your pistol is more effective. Once they're down to nothing but health you can do that, but there's no point as the time it takes you to use those biotics is far longer than the time it takes you to finish it off with a pistol.

[lantzk]

So, just out of curiosity I fiddled around with the Coalesced.ini file and made it so that shields and armor did not affect biotic (or other) powers. After playing for just a little while on Insanity with that enabled, I can see why Bioware realized that the powers needed to be limited by shields and armor. Literally, all of the tactical challenge from many situations was immediately removed. Irritating Fenris Dogs? Singularity and then Push. Heavy Mech ripping squad apart? Spam Pull.



Insanity with the Adept is meant to be an extraordinarily tactical experience, Yes, you no longer have the fun ability to sling enemies willy nilly across the map and make most encounters into childsplay. However, none of the other classes really have it that easy either. All of this talk about Infiltrators being able to oneshot all enemies into the next century isn't entirely accurate. I mean, if you have a level 30 Infiltrator you'll certainly be able to do some damage, and even at lowers levels you'll be able to headshot for a fair punch. But playing as an Infiltrator or Soldier is a different type of experience, for some it might be easier than playing as an Adept.



The challenge that Insanity presents difficulties for all of the classes on certain levels, largely due to modifications in the gameplay that affect all of the classes. Power duration is reduced, power recharge time is increased, player health is drastically cut, shield recharge time takes longer, you take longer to recover from low health, etc... And that's just on the player side. Enemies have various improvements in AI and health/shields.



Soldiers, have always been the introductory class to Mass Effect, it was that way in ME1 and it's still that way in ME2. So, of course their learning curve will not be as steep. I posit that many of the characterizations made here regarding the ease of the other classes are extraordinarily exaggerated. So, I think that we all should just calm down a little.



Now, for those of you looking for some advice on how to play a "more fun" Adept, here are my suggestions based on my experience. First, if you find that shields are a problem, and you wish to be more self-reliant and not simply depend on your squad, then utilize your bonus talent appropriately. I would highly suggest that you not do Adept on Insanity for your first play through, so when you start the Adept on Insanity you can have all of the bonus talents unlocked. When the game begins, maybe choose Shredder Ammo for its ability to tear through shields and damage synthetics, or possibly Energy Drain for its ability to tear through shields and heal your own. I will admit that Warp is probably required for Insanity with the Adept, which I really don't see why that's a problem, but I digress. In any case, between Warp and whatever Shield-Remover you chose, you should be able to effectively mitigate enemies defenses and then move on to your slinging and such.



Now, in order to avoid combat redundancy, I suggest that you order your squad mates to attack other enemies and use their powers when you use your biotics to finish off the weakened and the defenseless. This means that you'll be able to use your powers against weak enemies again sooner once your teammates do their job. As an Adept you'll be able to clean rooms of weaker enemies far faster than your gun toting teammates once their shields are down, thereby allowing more efficient allocation of resources, shortening battle times, and allowing you to throw people around.



I know that this isn't perfect, and some classes certainly have it easier in other situations, but Adepts are cool and can sling people against walls. Now, I'm certainly not opposed to a little balancing, but it would have to be a subtle fine tuning in order for me to agree with it. Give the Adept too much and suddenly they can CC entire rooms while their teammates pick them off. Too little and...actually too little empowerment wouldn't actually be bad, it just wouldn't be good. In any case, I hope that you all have fun and continue to enjoy your experiences with the game.



As for Vanguards...I haven't played enough of one yet to make a qualified statement regarding the ability to improve their play, maybe with time.



And thank you for taking the time to reply Ms. Norman, I know that it must be difficult to see people become frustrated and angry about a project that you spent great deals of your time on.

[Ebon Dark]

Christina Norman wrote...

Rodeolio wrote...

Christina, I sympathize with your position here, but quite a few of the posts in this thread are by players who have done their own experimenting with adepts on higher difficulties, and who have been disappointed.

Absolutely, and I am not going to tell any player that their play experience was incorrect. What I said was some of the information being posted as fact (conclusions drawn from that experience) was incorrect.

Rodeolio wrote...
So if you do have specific tips about playing adepts on higher difficulties to get the most leverage out of all their powers (other than warp), it would be really useful to post them here.  The "biotics suck in ME2" meme is starting to gain momentum on many forums, and derailing it is in your interest, I think, even if it means giving some tips away.

I could write guides to all the classes, but I actually think that would be counter productive. I don't want to start dictating the cannon way to "pwn as an adept" for two reasons
   First - It's totally unfair. I helped build the class, I know all the information (including data), and I've been playing it for years. I'm not on equal footing with the player community.
   Second - I fully expect the player community will quickly surpass me in understanding all of the ME2 classes and I look forward to learning by reading posts here about tactics I never even thought of.

So it's tempting for me to provide information, but ultimately counter productive. My only intent in posting here was to state, as I've stated, that some of the information presented as fact in this discussion is simply not true.

finc.loki wrote...

She is the lead designer for the
combat and they messed up, her posting here just stating that there are
inaccuracies and not even pointing them out, is NOT a smack down.
That is just a human being not able to admit mistake and say, "hey we will look into it".

The above is another example of why I'm not going to get involved in any kind of debate here. I have my opinions on issues, they're no more valid than any other player's opinion, and debating in the forums is counter productive!

Ultimately I hope everyone plays the class they will enjoy the most, and on the difficulty they enjoy the most, I do expect that some players will enjoy playing the adept on insanity. If you're tryign it, and it's not working for you, by all means don't do it! For those who aspire to do so, rest assured it is possible to succeed as an adept on insanity, and to enjoy doing so.

Christina thanks for your feedback.  Look I think ME2 so far is shaping up to be an insanely great story.  I appreciate that you recognize that we players may have our own opinions on the pleasure we take in classes.

Speaking as someone who invested an insane amount of time on ME1 (yes I have every achievement for both the game and DL content + multiple level 60's completed) I simultaneously love and hate some of the changes done.

I hate the lack of a gear system.
I love the standard armor customization.
I hate the bland character development.
I love the great plot development.

I hate the TPS style instead of the hybrid of ME1.  I'm not a twitch gamer.  I like Strategic (develop character to handle problems) rather then Tactical (twitch gaming to solve combat challenges).

It's the direction that Bioware has taken and I don't fault them.

I hope you take the feedback on Biotics and realize you've utterly changed our game experience for those of us die hard ME1 fans.  This was an utter game change.

[Junebug88]

kab wrote...

Adept class really shines when you learn how to effectively use it. I mean just lifting an enemy in the air and then throwing them clear across the map is like the most epic thing i have ever seen. I seriously cant believe people here are actually saying Christina Norman screwed up on the combat system. That's a joke.

The problem is you you can't do that on anything above Normal. Everything has shields and armor which renders just about all biotics either completely useless or so weak that your pistol is more effective. Once they're down to nothing but health you can do that, but there's no point as the time it takes you to use those biotics is far longer than the time it takes you to finish it off with a pistol.

Im playing on veteren and it works pretty darn well. There are only a small percantage of enemies that are immune to it.

[finc.loki]

Soruyao wrote...

Rodeolio wrote...

Thanks Christina, I appreciate the direct reply, and I understand the no-win situation you're in as far as posting specifics and getting debated to death by angry fans :-)

I do have just one more request: you said, "My only intent in posting here was to state, as I've stated, that some of the information presented as fact in this discussion is simply not true."

Can you please be specific about *exactly what information is incorrect*? Rules clarifications don't seem out of line for you to provide here -- they're not the same as gameplay advice. If there are specific things being said here that are wrong, setting the record straight would be very much appreciated.

Otherwise, it will only increase the frustration among the people whom you're calling incorrect (without actually correcting them), and the people like myself who just want to understand the actual situation before committing to a class choice.

She basically issued us (the community) a challenge and an opportunity.  We are going to be able to enjoy for ourselves the process of learning how to utilize a class for a maximum of fun and effectiveness.

We have been informed by someone who has been playing the game for two years that such strategies are there, but that they work and are theoretically fun and powerful when used correctly.    I'm more willing to believe someone who's been playing something for two years (and even knows the math and things behind everything) over someone who's been playing two days.   It's possible this class has a higher difficulty curve (to having fun or whatever) than other classes, but once you get it down it could be amazing.   We won't know until we've put some solid time into this as a community.

It'll feel really good to be the people who actually did start to propagate those strategies and made the class more fun for ourselves and others.   It's possible she's done us a favor.  Even though that means she'll be flamed even more by people who are impatient to learn what these things are or that don't believe her.  It's really a little selfless to be willing to get flamed like that to do a favor for people who won't appreciate it.

Doesn't really work that way..

First impressions are everything, especially in games.

If you pick the adept class and you find yourself annoyed and frustrated it is not a good thing.
You shouldn't have to struggle to find the "sweet spot" after two years of playing the class.

It might be one thing if a select few thought something was wrong, but when so many complain and react this way, no matter how you look at it . The problem is real.

Sure it is just one class out of 6 and it doesn't make or break the whole game or the ability to play it.
But we don't buy games so we can "mearly beat it or trudge through it" we buy it for the fun factor.

Yes, the game is just released and people might find away in a couple of weeks, but the developers should be in stand by mode for a fix.

When you design/build a game/car/house/clothes, anything the success and if it is the "right thing" is determined by the masses, IE the consumers not the feelings of the "builder".

[kab]

So, just out of curiosity I fiddled around with the Coalesced.ini file and made it so that shields and armor did not affect biotic (or other) powers. After playing for just a little while on Insanity with that enabled, I can see why Bioware realized that the powers needed to be limited by shields and armor. Literally, all of the tactical challenge from many situations was immediately removed. Irritating Fenris Dogs? Singularity and then Push. Heavy Mech ripping squad apart? Spam Pull.

There's a middle ground you know. Like, for example, lowering their duration or damage. With their current design biotics are basically worthless. Obviously making them work at full power on everything no matter what on Insanity is not a solution. I don't think anyone asked for that. What I want to see is something in between, where more powers work but are less effective. Reduce duration, damage, number of opponents affected, that kind of thing. Don't turn them off, as it is they might as well have just removed all biotics from Veteran, Hardcore and Insanity.

[Laughing_Man]

Clarification: i havn't played yet ME2, i'm only commenting on the facts that were stated here.

There is something very wrong with the new restriction on biotics.
the fact that they dont work (as CC method - throw \\ lift \\ etc.) against armored enemies (of course -
regular ones, not bosses and the like.), aside from the fact that it removes alot of the fun and half of the point of playing this class (which were my favorite class in ME1),
it conflicts with no subtlety whatsoever against the "canon", if its the krogen biotic that lifted an alliance tank,
or other cases of biotic throwing (and killing some) armored & shielded targets with one blast.

And in the biotics case its hard to just state that the geth invented some new type of removable heat-sinks
and make the problem go away...

Now i compleatly understand that biotics in ME1 were abit overpowered,
but this sounds like the whole thing just moved from the rock into a hard place.

[kab]

Now, in order to avoid combat redundancy, I suggest that you order your squad mates to attack other enemies and use their powers when you use your biotics to finish off the weakened and the defenseless.

That's silly. As an Adept my pistol is still more effective than my biotics. Why in the world would you ever bother using biotics?

[Soruyao]

lantzk wrote...
so when you start the Adept on Insanity you can have all of the bonus talents unlocked.

Wait, is that really true?  When I start as a new class later I'll have all the bonus talents?  =o  Thats incredibly awesome if it's true!

[lantzk]

kab wrote...

So, just out of curiosity I fiddled around with the Coalesced.ini file and made it so that shields and armor did not affect biotic (or other) powers. After playing for just a little while on Insanity with that enabled, I can see why Bioware realized that the powers needed to be limited by shields and armor. Literally, all of the tactical challenge from many situations was immediately removed. Irritating Fenris Dogs? Singularity and then Push. Heavy Mech ripping squad apart? Spam Pull.

There's a middle ground you know. Like, for example, lowering their duration or damage. With their current design biotics are basically worthless. Obviously making them work at full power on everything no matter what on Insanity is not a solution. I don't think anyone asked for that. What I want to see is something in between, where more powers work but are less effective. Reduce duration, damage, number of opponents affected, that kind of thing. Don't turn them off, as it is they might as well have just removed all biotics from Veteran, Hardcore and Insanity.

True, but I'm no coding expert, and that would take far more skill than I currently have. Like I said previously, limited damage and effect is an idea. Of course, biotics already do limited damage against enemies with shields and armor, but I'm assuming the limited effect is more what you want.

[lantzk]

Soruyao wrote...

lantzk wrote...
so when you start the Adept on Insanity you can have all of the bonus talents unlocked.

Wait, is that really true?  When I start as a new class later I'll have all the bonus talents?  =o  Thats incredibly awesome if it's true!

Sorry, I should clarify: If you have unlocked the bonus talents in one playthrough, then you will be able to select one to start out with in your next one. This is similar to how it worked in Mass Effect one once you used a skill 150 times or whatever it was. I do not believe this is a spoiler, so yeah.

[bobito64]

Hoffburger wrote...
it's just stupid to have to use warp 20 times or have to empty half of my ammo to bring down their armor and shields before I can do anything with my biotics.

If you've used warp "20 times", I'd say you've already done quite a bit with your biotics.

[lantzk]

kab wrote...

Now, in order to avoid combat redundancy, I suggest that you order your squad mates to attack other enemies and use their powers when you use your biotics to finish off the weakened and the defenseless.

That's silly. As an Adept my pistol is still more effective than my biotics. Why in the world would you ever bother using biotics?

On Insanity I found that Biotics was still very effective for damaging enemies without defenses (with all powers), removing defenses (Warp, bonus power maybe), and of course the pistol helped too. As it is, the Adept has limited defense in ME2, and standing up to take pot shots at a crowd of enemies is a sure way to have your shields shredded. Biotics don't miss, and can effectively neutralize an enemy that it would be hazardous or impossible to take out with your pistol. Curving powers around walls is very effective, as is shooting Push again and again at a charging Krogan without shields (Those things are scary at close range if they still have armor and shields).

[Soruyao]

lantzk wrote...

Soruyao wrote...

lantzk wrote...
so when you start the Adept on Insanity you can have all of the bonus talents unlocked.

Wait, is that really true?  When I start as a new class later I'll have all the bonus talents?  =o  Thats incredibly awesome if it's true!

Sorry, I should clarify: If you have unlocked the bonus talents in one playthrough, then you will be able to select one to start out with in your next one. This is similar to how it worked in Mass Effect one once you used a skill 150 times or whatever it was. I do not believe this is a spoiler, so yeah.

If people don't get too annoyed at the off-topicness, can I have just a tiny bit more clarification about this?  I'm intrigued.

Lets say I beat the game as an infiltrator and then start a completely new game from importing my adept.    Would I have access to the bonus skills right off the bat, assuming I got them on my infiltrator?

Or is it just that if I did a NG+ on my infiltrator I would still have those talents unlocked?

Oh, one more question!  Can you curve warp?

Modifié par Soruyao, 28 janvier 2010 - 01:18 .

[kab]

True, but I'm no coding expert, and that would take far more skill than I currently have. Like I said previously, limited damage and effect is an idea. Of course, biotics already do limited damage against enemies with shields and armor, but I'm assuming the limited effect is more what you want.

I don't know their architecture or their engine but this isn't exactly a new concept to BioWare or the game industry. Having certain spells or categories of spell, ability, talent, whatever not work or be less effective in various ways depending on the creature and difficulty is not new.

Im playing on veteren and it works pretty darn well. There are only a small percantage of enemies that are immune to it.

I have not seen pull work against anything with armor or shields.

[Basileus777]

Soruyao wrote...

lantzk wrote...

Soruyao wrote...

lantzk wrote...
so when you start the Adept on Insanity you can have all of the bonus talents unlocked.

Wait, is that really true?  When I start as a new class later I'll have all the bonus talents?  =o  Thats incredibly awesome if it's true!

Sorry, I should clarify: If you have unlocked the bonus talents in one playthrough, then you will be able to select one to start out with in your next one. This is similar to how it worked in Mass Effect one once you used a skill 150 times or whatever it was. I do not believe this is a spoiler, so yeah.

If people don't get too annoyed at the off-topicness, can I have just a tiny bit more clarification about this?  I'm intrigued.

Lets say I beat the game as an infiltrator and then start a completely new game from importing my adept.    Would I have access to the bonus skills right off the bat, assuming I got them on my infiltrator?

Or is it just that if I did a NG+ on my infiltrator I would still have those talents unlocked?

Any character (NG or NG+) would have access to those talents at the start.

[lantzk]

Soruyao wrote...

lantzk wrote...

Soruyao wrote...

lantzk wrote...
so when you start the Adept on Insanity you can have all of the bonus talents unlocked.

Wait, is that really true?  When I start as a new class later I'll have all the bonus talents?  =o  Thats incredibly awesome if it's true!

Sorry, I should clarify: If you have unlocked the bonus talents in one playthrough, then you will be able to select one to start out with in your next one. This is similar to how it worked in Mass Effect one once you used a skill 150 times or whatever it was. I do not believe this is a spoiler, so yeah.

If people don't get too annoyed at the off-topicness, can I have just a tiny bit more clarification about this?  I'm intrigued.

Lets say I beat the game as an infiltrator and then start a completely new game from importing my adept.    Would I have access to the bonus skills right off the bat, assuming I got them on my infiltrator?

Or is it just that if I did a NG+ on my infiltrator I would still have those talents unlocked?

Right off the bat, when you choose your class and such you also choose your bonus power. Again I don't believe this is a spoiler, but if it is someone tell me.

And yes, warp can be curved. In fact, every single biotic talent (minus Shockwave and Barrier) can be curved.

Modifié par lantzk, 28 janvier 2010 - 01:21 .

[mawmaw17]

So in order to get the most out of a biotic in higher difficulties you need the extra abilities like cryo ammo, disruptor ammo, etc.

[lantzk]

mawmaw17 wrote...

So in order to get the most out of a biotic in higher difficulties you need the extra abilities like cryo ammo, disruptor ammo, etc.

In order to get the most out of most classes (my opinion here), it's very helpful to have a bonus power to make up for your weaknesses. It also works as an incentive towards completing the game on an easier difficulty (enjoy the story, learn the ropes, the combat system) and then reaping the rewards later.