184 réponses à ce sujet

[Guanxii]

It's impossible to give equal representation to other races in these games without 'alienating' new players by subduing their only point of reference which they use to make sense of the new context. The player and their context will always likely be human because the more fantastical the setting the more a 'straight-man' protagonist is required to ground it in a believable way so as to maintain suspension of disbelief.

 

The logical retort would be multiple playable races in TES but it's that's only really window-dressing and 'imperial' is always default by definition. The story context never changes regardless of your player avatar and it's still basically a human centric universe with the major events revolving around humans. Elves are basically short humans with pointy ears, some of them are blue, some live in forests, etc. and most of the setting could pass for medieval Europe quite easily - especially the last two games.

 

The setting of Mass Effect and it's different races are so much more fantastical that it would be much harder to pull off in a convincing way.

[katamuro]

Pretty much. Especially after Shep Trilogy they need to ditch "humanity's a special snowflake" angle. Just treat them as other races, even if they make up majority of the cast

 

But you can't really ditch it. We are the only reference point available to us. Also unless we are going to play amnesiac alien a lot of things that are supposed to be part of their knowledge is not going to be there so how do you play an alien convincingly if you don't know anything about it?

Sure for people who have played the previous games or invested time to research the topic online at some length is possible but how about people who dont do that? 

Plus as I have said ME is a more personal story, the one point of view gives it more intimacy when dealing with the world compared to games such as DA where you can pick and choose. 

[SwobyJ]

Sure as hell hope not. If you think ME trilogy was Human-centric then you've completely misunderstood the plot. Humanity is the Johnny-come-lately's in the Galaxy and it's about Humanity finding its place and learning to live and work co-operatively with other species, something the other races have had hundreds to thousands of years of experience. Take that away for the sake of 'diversity' and Mass Effect just becomes just another Star Trek clone.

 

Ok I wouldn't call the Mass Effect trilogy UTTERLY human-centric, but it was at LEAST a good 1/3-1/2 by any stretch of perception. For a galaxy wide story, that's still pretty darn human-centric. Not that I hate that.

 

The next game doesn't necessarily need to have that. Or rather, its humanness could be more like 1/4 of the game instead.

 

I am encouraged by seeing Dragon Age Inquisition share the Human spotlight with Elves so much (Dwarves and Qunari still on relative backburner, for nowww). I'm not saying this even necessarily needs a species selection - I'm just talking about plot and such.

 

The ME Trilogy was about the human Shepard and the human Alliance, etc, getting together with aliens and finding a place with them. Okay. Whoopie. Now what? Do we still have to care THIS much about humanity? Should we? Can we look at more, while still having a solid chunk be about humans just for those who will always care?

[Son of Shepherd]

Humans were more of an ambitious irritant in ME1 than anything.  No spot on the council, no spectres, there was only a token presence of humans in CSec.  The original ME writers were focused on a story where humans weren't the center of the galaxy.  It was clearly a Turian/Asari show.

 

In fact, once you're free to roam, one of the first conversations most players get into is with the Volus ambassador, complaining about the preferential treatment that the council is giving to the "earth clans" lately.  One of the fundamental choices at the end of the game is whether you choose to play nice with the other council members, or make a bold decision that will propel the humans into a more significant role in the galaxy.

 

Only when ME2 came around, and we got significant overhauls in the writing team did the humans ascend to their clichéd place at the top of the heap.  One of my least favorite things about the game series is that by the time ME2 and ME3 come to bear, the Citadel is full of humans.  In ME1, there were more non-humans than humans on the Citadel.

 

You're spot on about the citadel. The worst example is the Cerberus coup attempt. At C-Sec HQ you see dead officers lying on the floor throughout.  

Every single one of them is human. Not one Salarian, not one Turian. Something I never understood from ME3. 

 

I hope humans play a smaller role in next ME like many others. I'm fine playing as one, but them dominating the story and universe has been done. 

 

i'd love to see a game teaming with alien life, cultures and conflict. Especially as new races are being introduced in the next one.

[SolNebula]

Well in ME I don't see myself playing anything else other than a human. Unlike DA where I don't play humans AT ALL:

 

However I do agree that the story should NOT be centered around humans. I found the entire "take Earth back" of ME3 quite irritating as strategically Earth was not relevant to the survival of galactic civilization so why a turian should care?. In ME:Next I would actually as a human to explore alien planets and learn more about the culture, society and traditions of the alien races.

 

A sort of Space Cristopher Columbus...to give an idea.

[Majestic Jazz]

It's impossible to give equal representation to other races in these games without 'alienating' new players by subduing their only point of reference which they use to make sense of the new context. The player and their context will always likely be human because the more fantastical the setting the more a 'straight-man' protagonist is required to ground it in a believable way so as to maintain suspension of disbelief.

 

The logical retort would be multiple playable races in TES but it's that's only really window-dressing and 'imperial' is always default by definition. The story context never changes regardless of your player avatar and it's still basically a human centric universe with the major events revolving around humans. Elves are basically short humans with pointy ears, some of them are blue, some live in forests, etc. and most of the setting could pass for medieval Europe quite easily - especially the last two games.

 

The setting of Mass Effect and it's different races are so much more fantastical that it would be much harder to pull off in a convincing way.

 

Wrong!

 

For some people, Mass Effect started with ME1 on the Xbox 360. For me, Mass Effect started with the novel, Revelations. The novel is written with the human perspective in mind as you follow then Lieutenant Anderson across the galaxy as he tries to uncover a mystery all while aiming to be the first human spectre. While the story itself was written with the human perspective in mind, the world itself at the time was LARGELY Alien centric and humans were just.....there trying to find their way in. This theme continued with Mass Effect 1 but once ME2 came around and ultimately ME3, the universe shifted from an alien centric world where Humans are vying for their purpose to a human centric world where the aliens simply serve as background filler.

 

So you're wrong. Writers can still write the story to make new players feel at home by making the story a human perspective story (Like ME Revelations and ME1) but still have the universe/galaxy as a whole be alien centric. 

 

I believe ME1 had the near perfect balance but ME2 came and threw that balance out of the door in favor of a galaxy in which humans are the Mary Sue and all important/almighty/greater/superior/relevant/resilient species. 

[Guanxii]

Wrong!

 

For some people, Mass Effect started with ME1 on the Xbox 360. For me, Mass Effect started with the novel, Revelations. The novel is written with the human perspective in mind as you follow then Lieutenant Anderson across the galaxy as he tries to uncover a mystery all while aiming to be the first human spectre. While the story itself was written with the human perspective in mind, the world itself at the time was LARGELY Alien centric and humans were just.....there trying to find their way in. This theme continued with Mass Effect 1 but once ME2 came around and ultimately ME3, the universe shifted from an alien centric world where Humans are vying for their purpose to a human centric world where the aliens simply serve as background filler.

 

So you're wrong. Writers can still write the story to make new players feel at home by making the story a human perspective story (Like ME Revelations and ME1) but still have the universe/galaxy as a whole be alien centric. 

 

I believe ME1 had the near perfect balance but ME2 came and threw that balance out of the door in favor of a galaxy in which humans are the Mary Sue and all important/almighty/greater/superior/relevant/resilient species. 

I too had ME1 on Xbox 360 and have read all 3 of Drew's books but I recognized even back then that while the geo-politics certainly don't revolve around Humans, all races inhabit their own inherent bubble and are for all intents and purposes the center of their own universes and the narrative reflects this - it always has and always will. You are the first human spectre, a human N7, serving on a yes co-developed but human ship manned by a human crew - visiting and saving human colonies all day long. Yes there are strong alien characters who are as essential to the plot as the human ones but it's still very much a human perspective on humanity's struggle in an idealized future universe playing off human science fiction tropes. If it had been set on an all Turian ship with maybe Kaidan as the lone human squadmate and view point characters were all alien nobody would have bought it because audiences wouldn't have been able to relate to it to the same extent. Except for Krogans, eveybody can relate to Krogans.

[Tex]

I truly hope your wrong about the next game being human only Because if it is I won't be buying it and I was really looking forward to it after hearing some of the details "sigh" oh well.

P.s As for this [quote name="Guanxii" post="18888799" timestamp="1427621189"]
It's impossible to give equal representation to other races in these games without 'alienating' new players by subduing their only point of reference which they use to make sense of the new context. The player and their context will always likely be human because the more fantastical the setting the more a 'straight-man' protagonist is required to ground it in a believable way so as to maintain suspension of disbelief.] This has to be one of the most ignorant and stupid things I have ever seen it is 2015 Male and Straight have nothing to do with belief when it comes to making a character I'm finding it really difficult to resist putting down a few choice words but I wont because I'm trying to remain as civil as I can but people like you make it so difficult.

[Guanxii]

I truly hope your wrong about the next game being human only Because if it is I won't be buying it and I was really looking forward to it after hearing some of the details "sigh" oh well.

P.s As for this [quote name="Guanxii" post="18888799" timestamp="1427621189"]
It's impossible to give equal representation to other races in these games without 'alienating' new players by subduing their only point of reference which they use to make sense of the new context. The player and their context will always likely be human because the more fantastical the setting the more a 'straight-man' protagonist is required to ground it in a believable way so as to maintain suspension of disbelief.] This has to be one of the most ignorant and stupid things I have ever seen it is 2015 Male and Straight have nothing to do with belief when it comes to making a character I'm finding it really difficult to resist putting down a few choice words but I wont because I'm trying to remain as civil as I can but people like you make it so difficult.

Can't tell if serious but a straightman or everyman archetype needn't be heterosexual or male that's not what I'm trying so say at all. Straightman is a term more typically associated with comedy but it use as a literary device is essentially the same. An otherworldly setting or otherwise surreal premise needs an audience vehicle to act as a bridge between ours and the fictional world. I'm not a writer or English major but attempting science fiction without one can be a recipe for disaster.

[ShadyKat]

The ME trilogy played into the "humans are almighty important" of many space sci fi stories. I hated how humans seemed to be the Mary Sue of the ME universe.
Do you think ME4 will be a bit more diverse in terms of racial importance? Or will humans once again hyjack the plot and?

Hopefully not.
The original trilogy spent more than enough time talking about and shown how awesome humanity was suppose to be. I hope ME4 has very little to do with humanity. I don't care if the protagonist is human, I just don't want to see another game about "HUMANITY #&%@ YEAH!!!!"

[Will-o'-wisp]

If it had been set on an all Turian ship with maybe Kaidan as the lone human squadmate and view point characters were all alien nobody would have bought it because audiences wouldn't have been able to relate to it to the same extent.

I'd love to play a game like that for once, but I guess I'm in the minority.

[katamuro]

I'd love to play a game like that for once, but I guess I'm in the minority.

 

No  what you actually love is the IDEA of playing such a game. Since you havent played one you cant know if you actually going to like it but you like the idea. For example I like the idea of Minecraft but I dont like playing it. 

[Heimdall]

Then it becomes Dragon Age in space. Not what ME is about.

There's more to what ME is about than the idea of humanity coming into its own and much more to DA than racial choice (Which the second game didn't even have). Not to mention, the things that have played center stage in ME (Shepard, Reapers) are gone. Things are going to have to shift.

[Majestic Jazz]

There's more to what ME is about than the idea of humanity coming into its own and much more to DA than racial choice (Which the second game didn't even have). Not to mention, the things that have played center stage in ME (Shepard, Reapers) are gone. Things are going to have to shift.

 

Exactly, before ME2 and ME3 got carried away with making Humans the special snowflake in the galaxy, I always invisioned the greater story of Mass Effect about the threat a galaxy faces and how the many civilizations deal with the threat. Yes, it was viewed through a human lens but that didnt make it human centric, just viewed from a human perspective.

 

ME2 and ME3 really took the whole concept and twisted it to not only was the story viewed from a human perspective, but the entire story shifted to become human centric. 

[wolfhowwl]

But you can't really ditch it. We are the only reference point available to us. Also unless we are going to play amnesiac alien a lot of things that are supposed to be part of their knowledge is not going to be there so how do you play an alien convincingly if you don't know anything about it?

Sure for people who have played the previous games or invested time to research the topic online at some length is possible but how about people who dont do that? 

Plus as I have said ME is a more personal story, the one point of view gives it more intimacy when dealing with the world compared to games such as DA where you can pick and choose. 

 

I think you can have a human reference point while dropping the masturbation about how humans are a special species and choosing a plot that doesn't revolve around humanity.

[katamuro]

I think you can have a human reference point while dropping the masturbation about how humans are a special species and choosing a plot that doesn't revolve around humanity.

 

That is true, in the new game our character could be the only one with the rest alien and going to alien places with maybe one human planet. 

[Drone223]

 

ME2 and ME3 really took the whole concept and twisted it to not only was the story viewed from a human perspective, but the entire story shifted to become human centric. 

The "human genetic diversity" brought up in ME2 is one of the worst offenders, humans IRL aren't really genetically diverse.

[General TSAR]

If by Human-centric you mean we will be supporting humanity over the other races in the plot, sure why not?

[Majestic Jazz]

If by Human-centric you mean we will be supporting humanity over the other races in the plot, sure why not?

 

No, I mean human centric as in humans being the almight special/more important/vital to the survival of the universe type of centric. 

 

Its just when writers throw in tibits that make it seem like its ONLY about humans is what drives me crazy. Personally ME2 would have had a greater appeal if it was colonies of all races going missing instead of JUST humans. ME3 would have had a better appeal if the overall them was to take back the home planets of ALL the major species and not JUST Earth. Taking back Earth should have been a normal mission in the same way Palaven's Moon, Thessia, and Tunchunka was. The final mission should have taken place in the fringes of space on some unknown planet/moon. 

[katamuro]

No, I mean human centric as in humans being the almight special/more important/vital to the survival of the universe type of centric. 

 

Its just when writers throw in tibits that make it seem like its ONLY about humans is what drives me crazy. Personally ME2 would have had a greater appeal if it was colonies of all races going missing instead of JUST humans. ME3 would have had a better appeal if the overall them was to take back the home planets of ALL the major species and not JUST Earth. Taking back Earth should have been a normal mission in the same way Palaven's Moon, Thessia, and Tunchunka was. The final mission should have taken place in the fringes of space on some unknown planet/moon. 

 

The problem with colonies of all species going missing is that ALL species would then investigate. There would be no need for Shepard to work with Cerberus, there would be no need for cerberus to really interfere. So collectors would have killed Shepard and thats that. No need to really bring him/her back since the rest of the Council species are as interested in finding who is abducting their colonies. 

As for the whole Earth mission, that is true, but it fit in with the whole theme of the game. It starts on Earth, Shepard gets out on the Normandy to find help for Earth. Earth is proportionally the weaker one of the council species and is in under a stronger attack. Its only later when the Citadel gets moved there that instead of just helping Earth the mission becomes of vital galactic importance. 

Before that Earth mission was only really vital to the humans. 

To change that they should have slightly altered the tone, instead of overwhelming attack they could still have a large scale one but with Reapers also dying. Just because reapers are vulnerable it doesn't mean that they are beatable by conventional means. For example for every reaper dead the fleets might exchange a dozen cruisers, or something like that. 

By genetic diversity they didn't mean that we as humans are somehow REALLY different from each other. Its the small things like skin colour, height, muscle mass, proportions, hair colour and texture. For example people of african descent find that some of the medicine for certain heart and other muscle related problems do not work as well on them as on the people of caucasian descent. We simply havent mixed enough genetically to be quite similar to each other. 

Turians, salarians and asari however are. Vorcha might also have been genetically diverse but they are not exactly an advanced species, they might have even be spared since they dont have the ability to develop the technology. 

[SwobyJ]

Genetic diversity + Prothian genetic lore = Humanity has a more diverse collective experience that may help the calculations needed in order to find a better solution to the Reapers' problem, or at least to better 'enrich' the Reapers' view of existence.

 

Chew on that. Its rather neat to think about.

 

Diversity actually = memories. Among other things.

 

Memories = the range of how humans have lived and currently life (its all in the DNA, to currently hard to perceive levels, in this scifi) has been more of a range than for the aliens.

 

Basically, humanity = more interesting. Humanity = we (Reapers in this case) can learn more from them. Humanity = a manageable chaotic species that is ideal as a tool that can still provide insights. Compare this to Harbinger's comments on the other species.

 

All of this means "Hey Shepard, you're impressive. Oh geez, its starting to look like your whole species is pretty neat. We'll go for yours first. We'll use a destructive analysis on all of you to see how you tick, down to the ancestral and deepest physical levels."

 

Harbinger is a stalker.

[Outrider42]

You guys got it all wrong. Everybody knows the next Mass Effect is actually a Volus Banking Simulator. It is a strategy game where you have to balance the sheets, work the books, pick stocks and the occasional smuggling operation to invest in. You get to hire the people/mercs who work for you, each with their own attributes. Get paid and build your empire. Sometimes you have to deal with problems...personally. But then you have pay(bribe) to cover things up to keep your image clean. You take credit farming to a whole new level.

[katamuro]

You guys got it all wrong. Everybody knows the next Mass Effect is actually a Volus Banking Simulator. It is a strategy game where you have to balance the sheets, work the books, pick stocks and the occasional smuggling operation to invest in. You get to hire the people/mercs who work for you, each with their own attributes. Get paid and build your empire. Sometimes you have to deal with problems...personally. But then you have pay(bribe) to cover things up to keep your image clean. You take credit farming to a whole new level.

 

And if you play through the game once without dying you get to play as a BIOTIC GOD for the second time.

[Tex]

Can't tell if serious but a straightman or everyman archetype needn't be heterosexual or male that's not what I'm trying so say at all. Straightman is a term more typically associated with comedy but it use as a literary device is essentially the same. An otherworldly setting or otherwise surreal premise needs an audience vehicle to act as a bridge between ours and the fictional world. I'm not a writer or English major but attempting science fiction without one can be a recipe for disaster.

Ah good I'm glad you explained that one but I still personaly disagree that it has to be a human for it to work.

[Tonymac]

I liked the appeal of ME1.  We humans were on the cusp of entering the Galactic community.  We had to earn our place amongst the aliens.  There was so much to learn, so many neat places to go.....   so much to do that it boggled the mind.  Heck, I still remember my first time on the Citadel - so incredibly lost and amazed at the size of it all.

 

Walking on barren planets with the howl of wind coming through my helmet and seeing spectacular vistas was part of that immersiveness.  The game made you feel tiny at times - and vulnerable (human).  There was no telling when a Thresher Maw would burst up out of the ground or a surprise Geth attack would occur.  Add into that a Galactic mystery that destroyed civillizations, chasing a rogue SPECTRE.....  andyou had a really immersive experience that captured you.

 

I understand the human centric point of view for the series.  We are humans - and we think like humans.  Our very lives are human centric, so it follows.