53 réponses à ce sujet

[draken-heart]

That's the same build I used for Solas. How did it not make sense?

 

Not enough damage, not enough mana regen.

[DomeWing333]

Oh. Well, yeah, if he's built to be a CC mage, then of course he's not going to be doing much damage by himself. But Pull of the Abyss + Ice Mine is amazing for setting up mass combo detonations or just keeping a group of enemies held up for a while. Fighting enemies that are constantly chilled and weakened is pretty nice too.

[Bigdawg13]

Oh. Well, yeah, if he's built to be a CC mage, then of course he's not going to be doing much damage by himself. But Pull of the Abyss + Ice Mine is amazing for setting up mass combo detonations or just keeping a group of enemies held up for a while. Fighting enemies that are constantly chilled and weakened is pretty nice too.

 

Let me explain.  Each mage has a gimmick.  Knight Enchanter has infinite barrier.  Rift mage has infinite mana.  Necromancer has infinite life (or close to it if you build it right).  For a rift mage to have infinite mana, they have to apply weaken and then do adquate amounts of damage.  It is for this reason that a Rift Mage can keep blizzard up forever, without his mana dropping.  When you build your rift mage for heavy CC and low damage, you lose out on the specialization's defining feature.

 

I'm not saying you can't build your rift mage for heavy CC.  I'm just saying it is like making a dps SnS warrior, or a parry/dodge/tank-like rogue.  Sure you can do it.  Is it optimal?  Probably not.  Is it fun?  That depends on the player.

[Elfyoth]

I'm finding the frost tree to be mostly useless on the damage front. Most of the abilities are utility in nature, to simply slow or weaken enemies for others to take them out.

 

Why has Bioware made the tree so one sided? Fire and Storm talents are easy to pickup over this?

And dont forget that appreantly almost every creature or enemy in Thedas, is having frost ressistence. 

[draken-heart]

Oh. Well, yeah, if he's built to be a CC mage, then of course he's not going to be doing much damage by himself. But Pull of the Abyss + Ice Mine is amazing for setting up mass combo detonations or just keeping a group of enemies held up for a while. Fighting enemies that are constantly chilled and weakened is pretty nice too.

 

there is also this:

 

And dont forget that appreantly almost every creature or enemy in Thedas, is having frost ressistence. 

[Arvaarad]

And dont forget that appreantly almost every creature or enemy in Thedas, is having frost ressistence.

Almost every creature or enemy from Ferelden has cold resistance, because it's a colder climate. Enemies from further north, like Venatori, are weak to cold. It was the same in DA2 - Qunari were weak to cold because they hailed from tropical Par Vollen, while doglords were cold resistant.

Many of the low-level DA:I maps are in Ferelden (or similar southern regions), but the balance does shift more toward the north.

If the next game takes place in Tevinter, I eagerly anticipate a similar thread about fire spells being useless.

[DomeWing333]

I'm not saying you can't build your rift mage for heavy CC.  I'm just saying it is like making a dps SnS warrior, or a parry/dodge/tank-like rogue.  Sure you can do it.  Is it optimal?  Probably not.  Is it fun?  That depends on the player.

The thing is, there is no mage spec in Inquisition that is perfectly attuned for heavy CC. Knight Enchanter and Rift Mage both work off of damage while Necromancer works off of kills. They're ALL optimized with fully offensive builds. But mages are still the best source of heavy CC in the game. So you have a dilemma there. Either you dispense with heavy CC altogether or you make one of your mages not fully offensive and therefore suboptimal. 
 

If the next game takes place in Tevinter, I eagerly anticipate a similar thread about fire spells being useless.

God, I remember doing In Hushed Whispers and unknowingly making Dorian a fire mage. A terrible time was had by all. On the other hand, because I made Solas an ice mage and because Freeze is the only CC Red Templar Behemoths are susceptible to, that boss battle ended up being super easy for me.

[Kalas Magnus]

Psh, my glyph mage laughs at Cone of Cold. So many cheesy things you could do with Glyph of Repulsion + the many narrow corridors/doorways in DA:O. Especially if you had multiple glyph mages.

Line of repulsion glyphs (or the paralyze+repulsion mass paralyze combo), and you could stack AoE on dozens of trapped enemies. And for higher-willpower enemies, you could Force Field one of your party members in the doorway to make an unavoidable "glyph of repulsion".

People who think KEs are broken have never played a mage in Origins. Enemies literally didn't get within eyesight of the party before falling over dead.

you got any videos of origins gameplay?

[Arvaarad]

you got any videos of origins gameplay?

No, sadly. That was yonks ago.

But it's pretty straightforward - if there's a corridor, have your mages stack AoE, then seal the corridor with glyphs of repulsion. Most enemies will get stuck behind the glyphs, the few with high willpower can be mopped up as need be. Against larger enemies like golems, a force field acts like a glyph of repulsion that can't be crossed even with high willpower.

In large open spaces, drop a repulsion+paralysis spell combo to set off a huge mass paralyze, then stack AoE. Origins also didn't restrict spellcasting to places where you could pathfind. So if you really want to get cheesy, hunt around for locked rooms in the area, mass paralyze, and drop AoE. They quite literally won't know what hit them.

At higher levels, archers could help out by stealthing ahead and setting off mass stuns. But by that point mages are so obscenely powerful that rogues' only benefit is scouting. Warriors only became semi-useful once they got DLC abilities.

[Bigdawg13]

The thing is, there is no mage spec in Inquisition that is perfectly attuned for heavy CC. Knight Enchanter and Rift Mage both work off of damage while Necromancer works off of kills. They're ALL optimized with fully offensive builds. But mages are still the best source of heavy CC in the game. So you have a dilemma there. Either you dispense with heavy CC altogether or you make one of your mages not fully offensive and therefore suboptimal. 
 

God, I remember doing In Hushed Whispers and unknowingly making Dorian a fire mage. A terrible time was had by all. On the other hand, because I made Solas an ice mage and because Freeze is the only CC Red Templar Behemoths are susceptible to, that boss battle ended up being super easy for me.

 

I disagree.  A rift mage's veil strike and pull of the abyss are arguably the best CC in the game, all things considered.  And if Bioware ever gets off their butts and fixes stonefist as an impact detonator, winter's grasp will earn it's place on the very limited 8 abilities.  And then necromancer has fear, which is rarely resisted.  If anything the Knight Enchanter is the non-CC spec.  

 

The fact is, there is no pure tank, pure CC, or pure healer anymore.  Everyone does damage.  So even if you neuter a Rift Mage with more CC spells, he's still not pure CC.  He's going to do some damage.  I'm not sure what you mean by "heavy CC" but you really don't need more than pull of the abyss and veil strike.  It's plenty and then some.  However, as a Rift Mage Blizzard is quite a bit of fun as long as you don't neglect doing adequate damage as well.

[DomeWing333]

The fact is, there is no pure tank, pure CC, or pure healer anymore.  Everyone does damage. 

That was sort of my point. All mage specs work best when they're doing damage, so you can't really have a designated CC mage unless you don't utilize the class to its fullest extent. But I do think that a designated CC mage is viable and very effective even if it sacrifices the "gimmick" of its spec by not focusing on damage.

 

If I'm running a really offensively-based party, I'm going to need someone who can always keep the bulk of the enemy group at bay. You can either use a designated tank or you can use a designated CC mage. And if you use a designated CC mage, that mage needs to be able to handle any enemy type. PotA and Veil Strike are great but they can't handle things like behemoths and arcane horrors. Freeze can.

[Arvaarad]

That was sort of my point. All mage specs work best when they're doing damage, so you can't really have a designated CC mage unless you don't utilize the class to its fullest extent. But I do think that a designated CC mage is viable and very effective even if it sacrifices the "gimmick" of its spec by not focusing on damage.

A CC rift mage is doing less damage, but they're also laying down a lot more weakness, so the mana regen evens out. Even when veilstrike doesn't get the knockdown, it tags a lot of enemies with weakness and cools down very fast.

A pure damage rift mage gets stonefist with its AoE weakness. But if the rest of the party is doing its job, there will chunks of the fight where the weakened enemies are dead and the rift mage is forced to hit unweakened enemies. A CC rift mage is consistently hitting weakened enemies.

[DomeWing333]

In my experience, the regen has been quite a bit weaker than a pure offense Rift Mage. Probably has to do with my tendency to always prioritize non-damaging spells like PotA, Ice Mine, and Veilstrike. Generally, the only source of damage I dish out with Solas comes from auto-attacks, Winter's Grasp, and the very occasional Immolate.

[AshenSugar]

Yep, when I was feeling like being cheap in DA:O I would cast gyph of repulsion at a choke point and then (with Morrigan's or Wynne's help) use Strom of Century on the trapped enemies. I like to imagine my party just sat outside the room playing cards while everyone dies.

 

Heheh. Oh happy memories, happy times

 

Extra bonus points for getting a stealthed rogue to scout ahead with the rest of the party on hold position so as to reveal the entire room full of enemies, and target the entire storm through the closed door. 

[Arvaarad]

In my experience, the regen has been quite a bit weaker than a pure offense Rift Mage. Probably has to do with my tendency to always prioritize non-damaging spells like PotA, Ice Mine, and Veilstrike. Generally, the only source of damage I dish out with Solas comes from auto-attacks, Winter's Grasp, and the very occasional Immolate.

Lightning cage is great for CC rift mages. Since everything is weakened, even a small amount of lightning damage per strike recoups tons of mana (assuming that the melee party members are doing AoE or multi-strike damage). Plus, shocked+weakened=sleep means lots and lots of combo damage.

[DomeWing333]

Lightning cage is great for CC rift mages. Since everything is weakened, even a small amount of lightning damage per strike recoups tons of mana (assuming that the melee party members are doing AoE or multi-strike damage). Plus, shocked+weakened=sleep means lots and lots of combo damage.

I was using Lightning Cage + Fire spells on my DPS mage so it felt a bit redundant to have it on both mages, especially when Solas already had a "contain everything inside this AoE" ability. I ended up relying more on the passive gain from Winter Stillness + Rejuvenating Barrier than the direct gain of Restorative Veil. But yeah, seems like Lightning Cage would have good synergy with Rift Mage (as it does with everything else).

[Arvaarad]

it felt a bit redundant to have it on both mages, especially when Solas already had a "contain everything inside this AoE" ability

I think the behavior may have changed in patches, but I remember Pull of the Abyss flinging all enemies out of its area when it ended. Was always a great combo with Static Cage because you could guarantee a paralyze.

Plus, neither Static or Lightning Cage affects allies, but Pull of the Abyss pulls and weakens allies. So when FF is turned on, they fill very different CC niches.

[draken-heart]

I noticed a thing. Seems like the fire/inferno line is the best for any mage spec:

• Knight Enchanter gets infinite barrier more easily from fire mine+ even with Chaotic Focus.
• Rift Mage gets much more mana due to fire's high damage thanks to rift mage's restorative veil.
• Necromancer kills most enemies easier with fire magic and gets much more boosts.

seems ice is the last tree you want to use, due to lack of damage abilities.

[Commander Michael]

Get real.

I played a mage. Do you know how much that class trivialized the game?

You needed the spells for storm of the century+mana clash. GG you win the game.

 

Maybe if you played on easy. 

 

As I said before, many people might play through the whole game with no mages. And how would a new player know how Storm of the Century is created? Or that mana clash was obscenely overpowered? Especially since the spells leading up to mana clash weren't that great. So my point stands; you needed experience to be overpowered in Origins, whereas in Inquistion it happens without thought.

[Arvaarad]

I noticed a thing. Seems like the fire/inferno line is the best for any mage spec:

• Knight Enchanter gets infinite barrier more easily from fire mine+ even with Chaotic Focus.
• Rift Mage gets much more mana due to fire's high damage thanks to rift mage's restorative veil.
• Necromancer kills most enemies easier with fire magic and gets much more boosts.

seems ice is the last tree you want to use, due to lack of damage abilities.

And if you want the big fire spells to actually hit, you need crowd control (which mages do better than any other class). Unless you're playing without friendly fire, you can't just drop a Fire Mine or Immolate on top of your tank.

The whole point of CC is that it's delayed gratification. It's the setup step to make later abilities work better. So of course it doesn't provide a bonus right away.

But it keeps enemies clustered for AoE, without requiring an ally to stand in the middle. It makes enemies vulnerable to combos like shatter, which do much more damage than ordinary abilities.

A necro that's setting up shatters for the rogues is going to get a lot more on-kill bonuses than one who's trying to pump their fire multipliers high enough to compensate for staves' weak damage.

[Bad King]

No, sadly. That was yonks ago.

But it's pretty straightforward - if there's a corridor, have your mages stack AoE, then seal the corridor with glyphs of repulsion. Most enemies will get stuck behind the glyphs, the few with high willpower can be mopped up as need be. Against larger enemies like golems, a force field acts like a glyph of repulsion that can't be crossed even with high willpower.

In large open spaces, drop a repulsion+paralysis spell combo to set off a huge mass paralyze, then stack AoE. Origins also didn't restrict spellcasting to places where you could pathfind. So if you really want to get cheesy, hunt around for locked rooms in the area, mass paralyze, and drop AoE. They quite literally won't know what hit them.

At higher levels, archers could help out by stealthing ahead and setting off mass stuns. But by that point mages are so obscenely powerful that rogues' only benefit is scouting. Warriors only became semi-useful once they got DLC abilities.

 

This. If you've read the ASoIaF series, think of the chain+wildfire combination used at Blackwater during 'A Clash of Kings'! Glyph of Repulsion + Firestorm, Fireball and other AoE attacks is God mode on DA:O. In DA2, mages have to resort to force magic to keep enemies pinned in their AoE which was also very powerful but not quite as OP as DA:O's repulsion glyph when used in a choke point.

[Gothfather]

The value of a skill tree is not singularly defined by the direct damage is does. So while this tree might have the least direct damage of other trees its utility is not limited to direct damage. A sign of a well made class is the fact that not all the skills are the same. I'd much rather see what we have then a call to homogenization so that every tree does the same amount of damage. 

[draken-heart]

Honestly, I wonder which path to go for my Knight Enchanter Qunari out of inferno, winter and spirit (Storm is Solas's department).

[Incantrix]

Honestly, I wonder which path to go for my Knight Enchanter Qunari out of inferno, winter and spirit (Storm is Solas's department).

I'm pretty sure spirit is pretty much a mandatory tree to invest if not, at least, the minimum in.

[capn233]

Spirit isn't really required for KE, depends what damage spells you take from other trees.  Passives are decent, and Mind Blast is ok for combos depending again on what other spells you and your companions have.

 

The only things I would recommend as a minimum for KE would be Fade Shield, Fade Cloak / Decloaking Blast, Fade Step and a decent AOE damage power (Chain Lightning, Fire Mine, etc).  For a really bare minimum you can get away without Fade Step, but it makes your life a lot easier.  In any case, I prefer these things before getting anything in Spirit, including Barrier.