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[Big I]

When we enter the Augur's home, we're met by a gathering of spirits. From the way he refers to them, the Augur most likely views the spirits as the souls of the deceased. They resemble wraiths, but I assume that's just from not wanting to create a whole new model for such an ephemeral meeting. But I can't buy into that, which is a shame. I want to believe the spirits were the souls of long-since-passed Avvar, but I can't. What we've seen in DA makes it near-impossible for me to believe that.

 

I haven't played Jaws of Hakkon, but past DAs have shown that it is possible for humans to become spirits,

 

1) The Baroness from DA:A and the main evil mage from Dawn of the Seeker (whose name I can't remember) transformed themselves into Pride demons.

 

2) The Guardian of the Urn of Sacred Ashes. It's unclear what exactly he is, but Morrigan calls him a spirit. If the story he tells you is true, then he's a mortal follower of Andraste who transformed into a spirit (likely Faith).

 

3) The spirit of Divine Justinia. It's possible that this was the mortal Justinia, transformed into a spirit.

 

 

And of course we know the reverse, a spirit becoming a person, is possible thanks to Cole.

[Colonelkillabee]

Confirmed that no evidence of the Maker's presence will ever be shown. Functionally, it's the same thing.

This has probably been addressed, but the ignorance, wow.

 

"The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence." Learn it, love it, live it.

[Colonelkillabee]

It's hard to beat condemning an entire continent of people to suffer torture, rape, mutilation, and ghoulification because five people trespassed into your home.

Five people, lol try an army sacking your capital city.

[Addai]

Greek gods were attributed as immortal, the Norse gods were also immortal outside their fated deaths at Ragnorok, I don't think the elven gods are even considered to be immortal

Why would immortal beings not consider their gods to be immortal?

 

And the Maker is better than the Creators, who we know aren't gods.

 

The Maker has the advantage in not being thoroughly debunked yet,

I think the Maker's debunked by his own followers' teachings. The only way he gets to be a decent bloke is if his followers got it all horribly wrong. Which, given what we've seen in DAI, has a good chance of happening.

 

And of course we know the reverse, a spirit becoming a person, is possible thanks to Cole.

So the deal with the Avvar is, they think the spirits that inhabit/ accompany them are actually ancestors? That would be pretty close to the Norse/ Germanic fylgja, if so.

[Gileadan]

I think the Maker is actually the only "real" god out there, because he's the only one whom the writers treat with the level of mystery that befits a god in any setting that doesn't do the "Oh, and then I met this god in dungeon XYZ" level of silly. Everything else is probably just a more powerful spirit or demon.

[Xilizhra]

This has probably been addressed, but the ignorance, wow.

 

"The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence." Learn it, love it, live it.

True, but by the same token, if there's no evidence for anything existing, there's no reason to assume it does exist.

[Han Shot First]

 

I think the Maker's debunked by his own followers' teachings. The only way he gets to be a decent bloke is if his followers got it all horribly wrong. Which, given what we've seen in DAI, has a good chance of happening.

 

 

 

I don't doubt that if the Maker exists, he'd be quite a bit different from what Andrastian doctrine teaches. So far the trend in Dragon Age is that everyone's religious beliefs have a kernel of truth at their core, but the tales have evolved the millenia and the real 'gods' have become lost in legend and folklore. So I suspect the same is probably true of the Andrastian faith. It's based on something, but that something has become partially forgotten and distorted with the passage of time.

 

Xilizhra, on 29 Mar 2015 - 07:23 AM, said:
True, but by the same token, if there's no evidence for anything existing, there's no reason to assume it does exist.

 

In the real world, yes. But since Thedas is fictional the trends of the writers are worth mentioning in any discussion of whether the Maker exists. So far the trend has been that every culture's gods are based on something real. We've seen that so far with the Tevinter dragon cult, the Dalish and their Creators, and the Dwarven woship of the Stone. Given that trend it is reasonable to suspect that the Maker might also be based on something real in universe.

[leaguer of one]

I haven't played Jaws of Hakkon, but past DAs have shown that it is possible for humans to become spirits,

 

1) The Baroness from DA:A and the main evil mage from Dawn of the Seeker (whose name I can't remember) transformed themselves into Pride demons.

 

2) The Guardian of the Urn of Sacred Ashes. It's unclear what exactly he is, but Morrigan calls him a spirit. If the story he tells you is true, then he's a mortal follower of Andraste who transformed into a spirit (likely Faith).

 

3) The spirit of Divine Justinia. It's possible that this was the mortal Justinia, transformed into a spirit.

 

 

And of course we know the reverse, a spirit becoming a person, is possible thanks to Cole.

1. The Baroness was just Possesed. She's an abomination, not a spirit.

 

2. and 3 Are so unclear that you can't use as examples. Spirits are shown to be able to take the memories of a living person and simulate them to a point of being them. That's the case of 2 and 3.

[Colonelkillabee]

True, but by the same token, if there's no evidence for anything existing, there's no reason to assume it does exist.

Faith isn't an assumption.

[Xilizhra]

Faith isn't an assumption.

Only if the only things you have faith in have been proven.

[Colonelkillabee]

Only if the only things you have faith in have been proven.

Then it wouldn't require faith, smart one.

[Xilizhra]

Then it wouldn't require faith, smart one.

So you're saying that faith is an assumption?

[Colonelkillabee]

So you're saying that faith is an assumption?

No, you are....

 

Jesus Christ.

 

An assumption is thinking something is fact based on little. Faith is belief that something is true, knowing it can never be proven.

[LOLandStuff]

No, you are....

 

Jesus Christ.

 

An assumption is thinking something is fact based on little. Faith is belief that something is true, knowing it can never be proven.

 

Stop making sense and go away.

[Heimdall]

1. The Baroness was just Possesed. She's an abomination, not a spirit.

Actually Justice says that she was once the baroness and became a demon of pride, no mention is ever made of them being separate entities.

[LobselVith8]

Five people, lol try an army sacking your capital city.

 

An army was never said to have invaded the Golden City, just several Magisters. I'd argue that condemning all of known civilization to the Blight is hardly an adequate response in any case.

[Sifr]

And the Maker is better than the Creators, who we know aren't gods.

 

Solas has a nice little rebuttal to that assessement;

 

"No real god need prove himself. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either mad or lying"

 

Of course, he's a little biased since he's partially referring to himself, but the point is still valid. There's far more evidence for the Creator's existing than the Maker at this point, at least in terms of of beings who could be considered actual Gods?

 

Thus far, the only evidence of the Maker that we've seen exists in the pages in a book? Which if that is the only proof we can rely on for his existence, then I submit that Varric's own literary creation, Donnen Brennokovic, be considered equally as "real" since he likewise falls under that category?

 

[Drasanil]

An army was never said to have invaded the Golden City, just several Magisters. I'd argue that condemning all of known civilization to the Blight is hardly an adequate response.

 

I'd argue that as the setting's only potential true deity the Maker would be the ultimate arbiter of morality in the setting. Making the response perfectly adequate. 

[Ashagar]

I don't doubt that if the Maker exists, he'd be quite a bit different from what Andrastian doctrine teaches. So far the trend in Dragon Age is that everyone's religious beliefs have a kernel of truth at their core, but the tales have evolved the millenia and the real 'gods' have become lost in legend and folklore. So I suspect the same is probably true of the Andrastian faith. It's based on something, but that something has become partially forgotten and distorted with the passage of time.

 

Given the Maker before andreste came along was a ancient Northern Neromenian/Tevinter Creator deity that those ancient humans belived created the world and the golden city and that's pretty much it of what we know of the ancient beliefs I have not doubt much has been lost and distorted.

 

I mean by the time Andreste came along his worship had been out of the mainstream for a thousand years, he likely had had a few followers who weren't in favor for not following the imperial cult but at that time the main stream belief was worship of the old gods who did answer prayers while acknowledging the maker for creating the world and the golden city.

[LobselVith8]

I'd argue that as the setting's only potential true deity the Maker would be the ultimate arbiter of morality in the setting. Making the response perfectly adequate. 

 

The response was perfectly asinine and monstrous, and part of the reason why some people have little reason to think the Maker is worth any consideration.

[Ashagar]

The response was perfectly asinine and monstrous, and part of the reason why some people have little reason to think the Maker is worth any consideration.

 

Barring that the maker is supposed to be a creator deity I don't recall anything nothing saying he is all-seeing being that sees into all possible futures and also all we know assuming the maker was the one to throw them out of the golden city for all we know not doing so could have made things much worse if not destroyed the world.

[Kantr]

Potato, potato.

 

Anyway,

Spoiler

I wouldn't worry all that much; we still don't have any confirmation on what the elven gods are, and the Avvar seem to have been quite fine with perceiving their gods as spirits.

In that temple

Spoiler

there's writings that imply the elven gods were just powerful mages

[Colonelkillabee]

An army was never said to have invaded the Golden City, just several Magisters. I'd argue that condemning all of known civilization to the Blight is hardly an adequate response in any case.

? I said Capital. Val Royeaux.

[Drasanil]

The response was perfectly asinine and monstrous, and part of the reason why some people have little reason to think the Maker is worth any consideration.

 

...and that went right over your head. Can't say I'm surprised. 

[LobselVith8]

? I said Capital. Val Royeaux.

 

So your response had absolutely nothing to do with my post? Thank you for clarifying.