202 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

In that temple

Spoiler

there's writings that imply the elven gods were just powerful mages

I thought the only real implication was that they weren't "divine" in nature. (Which I think is a pretty insignificant quibble, as precisely what they are besides powerful remains ambiguous)

[LobselVith8]

...and that went right over your head. Can't say I'm surprised. 

 

I simply don't adhere to the standards of a horrific entity who would infect the world with the Blight because a handful of people trespassed into his home, if the Chantry fables are to be believed (and that's what I've addressed). Reading about Grey Warden Pierse talk about his fingernails and "clumps of flesh" falling off because of the taint, or how Hespith talks about being violated and being fed flesh as part of the process of being turned into a Broodmother is going to give some people a very negative opinion about the so-called originator of the darkspawn and the Blight.

 

Xil, for example, doesn't seem to have a high opinion of the Maker, and given the results of the darkspawn and the Blight, I can understand why. I can also see why she thinks the religion of the Avvar isn't necessarily denigrated in comparison simply because the Avvar seem to term 'spirits' as 'gods'.

[Colonelkillabee]

So your response had absolutely nothing to do with my post? Thank you for clarifying.

You're welcome.

[Dragonzzilla]

Is anyone tempted to talk about the original post?

[leaguer of one]

Actually Justice says that she was once the baroness and became a demon of pride, no mention is ever made of them being separate entities.

An Abomination is a fusing of a mage and a demon/spirit. They no longer are separate entities. And She is an abomination.

[leaguer of one]

Is anyone tempted to talk about the original post?

Ok. What if the Avver religion clues into what the elven gods really are?

[Heimdall]

An Abomination is a fusing of a mage and a demon/spirit. They no longer are separate entities. And She is an abomination.

And yet possession is never mentioned, there's no indication that the Baroness was an abomination.

[Lumix19]

I'd argue that as the setting's only potential true deity the Maker would be the ultimate arbiter of morality in the setting. Making the response perfectly adequate. 

That's if you subscribe to divine command theory. Not everyone does. If the Maker is to command anything it should be because it is right, independent of his will. Not right because it is his will.

 

Barring that the maker is supposed to be a creator deity I don't recall anything nothing saying he is all-seeing being that sees into all possible futures and also all we know assuming the maker was the one to throw them out of the golden city for all we know not doing so could have made things much worse if not destroyed the world.

If the Maker truly is all-powerful one would expect he could accomplish the same thing without inflicting the Blight upon the world.

[Dragonzzilla]

Ok. What if the Avver religion clues into what the elven gods really are?

What I've been trying to get across is that there is no mystique! We've been to the Fade, we've seen what it's like. Nothing makes me feel like the Avvar are genuine, is what I'm saying. No alternative systems that run parallel and equal to our understanding of the Fade. I couldn't care less about the elves in this thread which is about the Avvar.

[AresKeith]

This has probably been addressed, but the ignorance, wow.

 

"The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence." Learn it, love it, live it.

 

Spoken by a great man

 

[Kantr]

I thought the only real implication was that they weren't "divine" in nature. (Which I think is a pretty insignificant quibble, as precisely what they are besides powerful remains ambiguous)

I got the impression that the writer knew them personally just before they convinced everyone

[Colonelkillabee]

Spoken by a great man

 

Say what again, SAY.. WHAT...AGAIN! I DARE YOU, I DOUBLE DARE YOU, MOTHER******!

 

Love this show.

[Drasanil]

 

That's if you subscribe to divine command theory. Not everyone does. If the Maker is to command anything it should be because it is right, independent of his will. Not right because it is his will.

 

Then you get into the issue of what is right and who defines it. If an omnipotent and omniscient deity is involved it's kind of hard to argue that the common mortal is in a position or has even has the proper perspective to gain say it.

 

I simply don't adhere to the standards of a horrific entity who would infect the world with the Blight because a handful of people trespassed into his home, if the Chantry fables are to be believed (and that's what I've addressed). Reading about Grey Warden Pierse talk about his fingernails and "clumps of flesh" falling off because of the taint, or how Hespith talks about being violated and being fed flesh as part of the process of being turned into a Broodmother is going to give some people a very negative opinion about the so-called originator of the darkspawn and the Blight.

 

Xil, for example, doesn't seem to have a high opinion of the Maker, and given the results of the darkspawn and the Blight, I can understand why. I can also see why she thinks the religion of the Avvar isn't necessarily denigrated in comparison simply because the Avvar seem to term 'spirits' as 'gods'.

 

The blight isn't just those five mortal magister's punishment though. It was the sins of Tevinter revisited upon it. There may have only been a handful of people who made the journey but you have to consider what it took to make it even happen. In that sense Tevinter at large (which was the whole of civilisation back then) could easily be considered complicit. 

 

That aside whose to say it wouldn't have been worse if the Maker hadn't intervened? Given Xil and yourselves' dalish hugging tendencies I doubt an eternal Imperium ruled over by five all powerful Corypheus' is your idea of a good end

[Sifr]

 

Then you get into the issue of what is right and who defines it. If an omnipotent and omniscient deity is involved it's kind of hard to argue that the common mortal is in a position or has even has the proper perspective to gain say it.

 

Of course, having an omnipotent and omniscient deity as the absolute dictator of moral arbitation is also somewhat self-defeating of an argument, because why should such a being ever have any need to justify themselves or their actions to mere mortals? If such a deity wanted to make it rain flaming puppies on a whim, regardless of whether or not that is a moral act, there is nought anyone could say to stop them?

 

All-powerful and all-knowing doesn't mean all-loving, after all?

 

Indeed, even the Chantry says that the Maker created the Spirits, Humanity and then turned his back on them, before briefly paying attention to Andraste, before turning his back on them again. Their own scripture paints the Maker as deeply fickle and uncaring at best? Then the belief that he's punishing the entire world for the actions of Seven Magisters by unleashing the Blight, seems like majorly disproportionate retribution?

 

If the Maker actually exists, he's definitely not the kind of god that believes in kittens, rainbows and free hugs?

 

(Incidentally, we're told there were actually seven Magisters who broke into the Golden City, one for each Old God. Not sure why there is only five on the murals we see, if it's a mistake or plot-point?)

[Heimdall]

I got the impression that the writer knew them personally just before they convinced everyone

Which doesn't indicate they were Mages, especially since the writer was probably the same type of being.

[Kantr]

Which doesn't indicate they were Mages, especially since the writer was probably the same type of being.

I thought all elves were mages though. (or used to be)

[LobselVith8]

I thought all elves were mages though. (or used to be)

Elven lore reads the ancient elves were all mages, but it seems they were classist and that the Dreamers wielded power over everyone else.

[Ashagar]

Of course, having an omnipotent and omniscient deity as the absolute dictator of moral arbitation is also somewhat self-defeating of an argument, because why should such a being ever have any need to justify themselves or their actions to mere mortals? If such a deity wanted to make it rain flaming puppies on a whim, regardless of whether or not that is a moral act, there is nought anyone could say to stop them?

 

All-powerful and all-knowing doesn't mean all-loving, after all?

 

Indeed, even the Chantry says that the Maker created the Spirits, Humanity and then turned his back on them, before briefly paying attention to Andraste, before turning his back on them again. Their own scripture paints the Maker as deeply fickle and uncaring at best? Then the belief that he's punishing the entire world for the actions of Seven Magisters by unleashing the Blight, seems like majorly disproportionate retribution?

 

If the Maker actually exists, he's definitely not the kind of god that believes in kittens, rainbows and free hugs?

 

(Incidentally, we're told there were actually seven Magisters who broke into the Golden City, one for each Old God. Not sure why there is only five on the murals we see, if it's a mistake or plot-point?)

 

It depends on how you look at the lore which is spotty given we don't know much about the ancient maker beliefs that predate Andraste and the chantries it could be argued even if you take the chantry at face value(though which one to take) The maker seemed to be interested in creating races capable of thinking for themselves and more importantly being creative and doesn't seem to implied to be all seeing. 

 

If he was all seeing he would have forseen what the magisters were going to do, would have seen that the spirits would prove to be uncreative, that the Tevinter would contact the forbidden ones and the old gods etc. but I don't see any evidence for that. It seems to me the maker is capable of creating things but not of foreseeing their actions.

[Sifr]

It depends on how you look at the lore which is spotty given we don't know much about the ancient maker beliefs that predate Andraste and the chantries it could be argued even if you take the chantry at face value(though which one to take) The maker seemed to be interested in creating races capable of thinking for themselves and more importantly being creative and doesn't seem to implied to be all seeing. 

 

If he was all seeing he would have forseen what the magisters were going to do, would have seen that the spirits would prove to be uncreative, that the Tevinter would contact the forbidden ones and the old gods etc. but I don't see any evidence for that. It seems to me the maker is capable of creating things but not of foreseeing their actions.

 

I do like the idea of the Maker being an absent-minded tinkerer who doesn't really pay attention to something after he's finished working on it, as he's already moved onto his next project? Or realise how much something might ultimately blow in his face?

 

Unleashing the Blight could have be his equivalent to Sandal burning the house down (twice) by accident after enchanting something?

 

The First Blight could have been caused by the Maker discovering the Taint while experimenting with a new creation, only to accidentally corrupt the Golden City (and maybe even himself) in the process, which was why the Seven Magisters found the place already in ruin and decay when they broke in?

 

Rather than the actual creator figure, the Maker is simply another powerful deity and/or spirit who's named for what he does, he "makes" things?

[ComedicSociopathy]

I do like the idea of the Maker being an absent-minded tinkerer who doesn't really pay attention to something after he's finished working on it, as he's already moved onto his next project? Or realise how much something might ultimately blow in his face?

 

Unleashing the Blight could have be his equivalent to Sandal burning the house down (twice) by accident after enchanting something?

 

The First Blight could have been caused by the Maker discovering the Taint while experimenting with a new creation, only to accidentally corrupt the Golden City (and maybe even himself) in the process, which was why the Seven Magisters found the place already in ruin and decay when they broke in?

 

Rather than the actual creator figure, the Maker is simply another powerful deity and/or spirit who's named for what he does, he "makes" things?

 

Oh, so instead of being an omniscient father figure with anger issues, he's a irresponsible child who treats his creations like playthings. 

 

Well, doesn't that make everything so much better. 

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Spoken by a great man

 

I think the funniest thing about that video is that they credit Donald Rumsfeld for that quote. It was said by Carl Sagan years before and used to describe the logical fallacy of "argument from ignorance" in philosophy before that.

[Akkos]

I do like the idea of the Maker being an absent-minded tinkerer who doesn't really pay attention to something after he's finished working on it, as he's already moved onto his next project? Or realise how much something might ultimately blow in his face?

 

Unleashing the Blight could have be his equivalent to Sandal burning the house down (twice) by accident after enchanting something?

 

The First Blight could have been caused by the Maker discovering the Taint while experimenting with a new creation, only to accidentally corrupt the Golden City (and maybe even himself) in the process, which was why the Seven Magisters found the place already in ruin and decay when they broke in?

 

Rather than the actual creator figure, the Maker is simply another powerful deity and/or spirit who's named for what he does, he "makes" things?

 

The first blight was led by Dumat. The old god that called on these magisters and got corrupted by their touch..... maybe...  So The maker was not mentioned then, till Andraste was born. After or during the first blight.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

The first blight was led by Dumat. The old god that called on these magisters and got corrupted by their touch..... maybe...  So The maker was not mentioned then, till Andraste was born. After or during the first blight.

There is a post by Gaider on the old forums that says that the "maker cult" actually existed back in old Tevinter, that Tevinters were familiar with the concept of the Maker. Its just the Old Gods were their deities of choice, so to speak. I don't recall if he clarified that they considered the Maker on par with the Old Gods, or they thought of him as the creator of everything (including the Old Gods) and just chose to worship the Old God dragon things instead cus they seemed to actually respond to prayer and give power and such in return for worship.

[Rekkampum]

Why would immortal beings not consider their gods to be immortal?

 

I think the Maker's debunked by his own followers' teachings. The only way he gets to be a decent bloke is if his followers got it all horribly wrong. Which, given what we've seen in DAI, has a good chance of happening.

 

So the deal with the Avvar is, they think the spirits that inhabit/ accompany them are actually ancestors? That would be pretty close to the Norse/ Germanic fylgja, if so.

 

The Avvar are definitely patterned after older European societies so it wouldn't surprise me.

[Ashagar]

Oh, so instead of being an omniscient father figure with anger issues, he's a irresponsible child who treats his creations like playthings. 

 

Well, doesn't that make everything so much better. 

 

I think more closer to a Leonardo Da Vinci or Leonard of Quirm if they were gods or powerful spirits would be a better comparison I think.