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[ComedicSociopathy]

I think more closer to a Leonardo Da Vinci or Leonard of Quirm if they were gods or powerful spirits would be a better comparison I think.

 

I was thinking more like Whateley from Portal 2 but to each his own. 

[Akkos]

There is a post by Gaider on the old forums that says that the "maker cult" actually existed back in old Tevinter, that Tevinters were familiar with the concept of the Maker. Its just the Old Gods were their deities of choice, so to speak. I don't recall if he clarified that they considered the Maker on par with the Old Gods, or they thought of him as the creator of everything (including the Old Gods) and just chose to worship the Old God dragon things instead cus they seemed to actually respond to prayer and give power and such in return for worship.

 

I have no idea. Maybe it will be more detailed in World of Thedas Vol2.... I hope.

 

I know it started with the old tevinter "necromenian dreamers" recieving whispers from the old gods in the "Black City" while in the fade. These mages became priests and were made kings. I believe the old gods made them believe the black city was golden and had a more powerful entity "The maker". They became greedy and usurp the so called golden city and found it black.

 

 

Kind of remind me of Final Fantasy XIII......  The Fal'Cies, I'cie and stuff.

 

The Maker turned away from the old gods, while they seeked to be worshipped by men. Taught them magic so they would use that magic to bring back the Maker. But the maker cursed these men who were cast back by corrupted and became the first darkspawn.  I'd like to believe it this way.

 

Edit: The Old Gods were great-dragons in Thedas, I believe Yavanna mentioned these great-dragons in one of dragon age books.

[Rekkampum]

I have no idea. Maybe it will be more detailed in World of Thedas Vol2.... I hope.

 

I know it started with the old tevinter "necromenian dreamers" recieving whispers from the old gods in the "Black City" while in the fade. These mages became priests and were made kings. I believe the old gods made them believe the black city was golden and had a more powerful entity "The maker". They became greedy and usurp the so called golden city and found it black.

 

 

Kind of remind me of Final Fantasy XIII......  The Fal'Cies, I'cie and stuff.

 

The Maker turned away from the old gods, while they seeked to be worshipped by men. Taught them magic so they would use that magic to bring back the Maker. But the maker cursed these men who were cast back by corrupted and became the first darkspawn.  I'd like to believe it this way.

 

Well the Fal'Cie are more like manipulative pricks who exploited the people of Cocoon and Pulse by forcing some to become their servants or "L'Cie" and turning them into mindless Cieth if they didn't complete the task they were given. Of course they'd turn into crystals and gain immortality when they did... until the Fal'Cie needed them again, so it's basically divine enslavement.

[Akkos]

Well the Fal'Cie are more like manipulative pricks who exploited the people of Cocoon and Pulse by forcing some to become their servants or "L'Cie" and turning them into mindless Cieth if they didn't complete the task they were given. Of course they'd turn into crystals and gain immortality when they did... until the Fal'Cie needed them again, so it's basically divine enslavement.

 

It's sort of similar. Fal'Cies = Old Gods,  I'Cie = Mages and there was a Maker too.. Though I understand they are not similar in Lore based on story progression. But the concept strike me of who the Maker is and how the darkspawn were created.

 

 

Edit: Divine enslavement = Basically explains why some think magic is a curse.......

[leaguer of one]

Well the Fal'Cie are more like manipulative pricks who exploited the people of Cocoon and Pulse by forcing some to become their servants or "L'Cie" and turning them into mindless Cieth if they didn't complete the task they were given. Of course they'd turn into crystals and gain immortality when they did... until the Fal'Cie needed them again, so it's basically divine enslavement.

And why that do that...

[leaguer of one]

It's sort of similar. Fal'Cies = Old Gods,  I'Cie = Mages and there was a Maker too.. Though I understand they are not similar in Lore based on story progression. But the concept strike me of who the Maker is and how the darkspawn were created.

 

 

Edit: Divine enslavement = Basically explains why some think magic is a curse.......

Not really. The mages have a choice in the matter and the old gods trick them into service. The fal'cies' only force on the unwilling.

[Akkos]

Not really. The mages have a choice in the matter and the old gods trick them into service. The fal'cies' only force on the unwilling.

 

Of course of course,.... The concept is identical. In this case mages had far more ambition and high stance for magic no doubt.

[myahele]

I kinda like where this is going.

 

The Forgotten One, Geldaurran and Fen'Harel  don't think the elvhen pantheons are gods. 

 

We also know from Avvar that spirits inhabits a young mage's body and teach them until they reach adulthood where a ritual is performed so the spirit can leave safely.

 

Nothing can be proven yet, but we are slowly learning more and more about spirit relationships. Perhaps the elvhen pantheons are just powerful elves who merged with powerful spirits. 

[leaguer of one]

I kinda like where this is going.

 

The Forgotten One, Geldaurran and Fen'Harel  don't think the elvhen pantheons are gods. 

 

We also know from Avvar that spirits inhabits a young mage's body and teach them until they reach adulthood where a ritual is performed so the spirit can leave safely.

 

Nothing can be proven yet, but we are slowly learning more and more about spirit relationships. Perhaps the elvhen pantheons are just powerful elves who merged with powerful spirits. 

I've been saying that in this topic for  a while now.

[myahele]

Its also very interesting that - while unnatural- Spirits/Demons can reside in dragons. 

 

I personally think that Hakkon was a spirit of Valor, but his forced binding to a dragon by  "lowland methods" twisted him into a demon of war.

 

Kinda like Solas' friend was a spirit of purpose but the binding (against his/her will) twisted her.

 

I have to say, DAI has changed my views of Spirits/Demons. That they're as much in danger from Mages as mages are from demons

[Sifr]

Oh, so instead of being an omniscient father figure with anger issues, he's a irresponsible child who treats his creations like playthings. 

 

Well, doesn't that make everything so much better. 

 

Actually it does, because the former is an absentee father who's only interaction with his children are when he occasionally beats them, while the latter is a precocious child who whilst making new toys, has accidentally broken one or two of them?

 

At least with the precocious kid, his malevolence is not intentional, but a result of carelessness?

[leaguer of one]

And yet possession is never mentioned, there's no indication that the Baroness was an abomination.

......

Someone has to say an Abomination is an Abomination for them to be an abomination?

 

The definition is a mage with a spirit/demon in them. And Mages don't physically cross the fade with out help nor just turn to demons. Every mages that does is an abomination.

[aries1001]

There was never a Greek God who died, or a Norse God who died outside of their ascribed fate

 

The Norse Gods are immortal because of Idun's apples, please look here:  http://en.wikipedia.....org/wiki/Iðunn
 

"In both sources, she is described as the wife of the skaldic god Bragi, and in the Prose Edda, also as a keeper of apples and granter of eternal youthfulness."

And the only Norse god to die is, I think, Baldr or Baldur, please look her: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldr

On topic: 

I agree that the Andrastian  faith probably portrays the Maker in a different light that he himself would have portrayed himself - if he existed or exists that is. The same is probably true for the Avvar religion and myths. It seems to me that all myths have base in events which has happened in the wold...

[Heimdall]

I thought all elves were mages though. (or used to be)

They were, but we don't know that the Elven gods were merely elves or something more.

[Heimdall]

......
Someone has to say an Abomination is an Abomination for them to be an abomination?

The definition is a mage with a spirit/demon in them. And Mages don't physically cross the fade with out help nor just turn to demons. Every mages that does is an abomination.

Except that it is only your assumption that the Baroness had a demon within her ever.

The baroness and her villagers were never physically in the Fade. All it takes is enough power, demon, lyrium, or blood, to send a mind into the Fade. Niall proves that a mind can persist in the Fade even after the body's death.

Without her body, after centuries in the Fade, the Baroness eventually came to embody the same quality that defined her in life: Pride. At no point was there another demon involved in this process.

[leaguer of one]

Except that it is only your assumption that the Baroness had a demon within her ever.

The baroness and her villagers were never physically in the Fade. All it takes is enough power, demon, lyrium, or blood, to send a mind into the Fade. Niall proves that a mind can persist in the Fade even after the body's death.

Without her body, after centuries in the Fade, the Baroness eventually came to embody the same quality that defined her in life: Pride. At no point was there another demon involved in this process.

Nope..

http://dragonage.wik...le_abominations

 

She's listed under Abomination. 

[TK514]

On topic to the OP:

 

I think it is intentional that we're supposed to see the Avvar as, basically, wrong about the divinity of their 'gods', while at the same time seeing how their practices allow them to live in relative harmony with those they summon.  Much like Solas with the spirits he contacts, in fact.  In some ways a "Yes, these (primitive) peoples are wrong, but so what?  Look what the have been able to achieve" situation.  I was particularly interested to hear that they have a way to safely remove a spirit from a host.  It makes me wonder if there isn't, in fact, some 'cure' for Abominations.  It is a pity we learn about this possibility too late to help someone like Justice get out of a bad pairing.  Regardless, it is another piece of the puzzle that is the relationship between the Fade and the Real.

 

Off Topic:

 

As for the Maker, not even the Chantry claims he is omnipotent, or even omniscient.  He is quite clearly a creator deity, and apparently limited to that.  When He creates His first Children, He waits to see what they will create in turn, and is disappointed.  Why would He be disappointed if He already knew it was going to happen?  Further, rather than repair what He saw as a flaw, He instead creates something new.  At no point in any of the stories about the Maker are there any reference to a direct attempt to repair or to alter, that I recall, only to Create.

 

Of course, the later actions the Chantry ascribes to the Maker are inconsistent with the rest of the stories we have about Him, as one would expect of a religion that has evolved through the years to appeal to its adherents.  The greatest "punishment" the Maker is originally capable of is abandonment.  He abandons His first children, then His second, and then, after being drawn back by an act of creating beauty, He abandons his creations for a third and final time.  Nothing in the stories of the Maker suggest a vindictive deity, even the trials Tevinter suffered that allowed Andraste to succeed would be more facilitating than vindictive, until we get to the Darkspawn.  The act of directly punishing someone, particularly by changing them, is out of character to all the other depictions of the Maker.  He doesn't punish and He doesn't alter.  He abandons and creates anew.

 

I suspect, as I have for a while, that the Blights being attributed to the Maker punishing the Magisters is a case of early Anti-Tevinter propaganda becoming religious 'truth' over time.  I further suspect that we are fairly close to a reveal on the actual source of the Darkspawn.  I think we will find that source generally outside the various conflicting beliefs we've seen so far, but given the general trend in DA:I, I won't be surprised if "It's the elves fault" is the dev fallback position.

[Heimdall]

Nope..
http://dragonage.wik...le_abominations

She's listed under Abomination.

You do realize that a fan wiki is not authoritative, right?

[AresKeith]

 

I suspect, as I have for a while, that the Blights being attributed to the Maker punishing the Magisters is a case of early Anti-Tevinter propaganda becoming religious 'truth' over time.  I further suspect that we are fairly close to a reveal on the actual source of the Darkspawn.  I think we will find that source generally outside the various conflicting beliefs we've seen so far, but given the general trend in DA:I, I won't be surprised if "It's the elves fault" is the dev fallback position.

 

Well the elves were the ones who owned everything at first

[Lady Artifice]

And the only Norse god to die is, I think, Baldr or Baldur, please look her: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldr

 

Baldur's death was prophesied, which may be what was meant by "ascribed fate." 

[Dragonzzilla]

Can any of you stop?

[Lady Artifice]

Can any of you stop?

 

Sorry. Yes. 

[Kantr]

You do realize that a fan wiki is not authoritative, right?

It's the best there is though.  What we need to do is replay DA:A and see what she says about herself

[Heimdall]

It's the best there is though. What we need to do is replay DA:A and see what she says about herself

[Roamingmachine]

I'm going to do something mindblowingly radical here: Address the actual topic.

 

I don't think the Avvar faith is diminished in any way by the dlc. First of all, you can't really judge the faith on Abrahamic ideas about what a god is. Monotheistic religions have theologies purposefully built so that no other deity fits the description for obvious reasons. Instead you have have to view the Avvar gods as they themselves do: powerful otherworldy presenses affecting their lives directly. That is in essence the definition of a god in its simplest form.  What the outside world views them is completely irrelevant as it doesn't really add anything new to their understanding of the gods (Powerful aspect spirit vs. aspect god.Same thing).  As it stands, the Avvar spirituality seems both healthy and vibrant.