Meh, the game literally just started so the player really didn't have a connection to those characters.
I did. It was my mother and father than were slaughtered, along with my nephew and his mother. I was in tears as I walked away from my family with Duncan. It was pretty darned RED WEDDING to me!
The only Bioware games that I know of which killed off protagonists that we really liked and there were no options of somehow avoiding was in Me1, where Kaidan or Ashley were killed on Virmire, and Jade Empire's Sagacious Zu. Well, maybe you didn't like Sagacious, but I thought he was a badass.
I did too, and I HATED having him die. (I wanted to romance him, he was much more interesting than the other guy/guys.)
Mother Giselle should have been assassinated or killed at some point in the story like right before arbor wilds or right after the final battle. It would have been the perfect personal blow because she was like our moral compass or faith guide but after we reach skyhold apart from Dorian personal quest she was just there. She outlived her role and would have been a good death for the game.
And who are you, the proud lord said...
I dunno about a RW-style shinding, but I definitely think the dark and dramatic moments should make a comeback. DA: O was a lot darker and had a lot more serious moments, in a way. A lot of stuff went down and it kinda gave it a realistic uneasy feeling. DA: 2 had its moments, but Inquisition's lackin' in this department. Even the Blood Mages in Inquisition fell short on the disturbing-scale when compared to their predecessors.
...They talk a lot about empowering the player, but sometimes depowering the protagonist is what's needed.
This is related to another problem I have in Inquisition and ME to an extent: way too much ego stroking. Whenever a character starts fawning over my PC, telling me how awesome and super special I am, I really can't take the game seriously. How can I when it feels like the game is treating me like an insecure child?
Broganisity Greatly Approves
I understand that DA is a type of 'Power Fantasy' and all that, but there are times where the Player should feel helpless in a situation, especially early on or at an unexpected time.
In ME:3...
The ME series does this better overall. Not the greatest, but it -is- there.
Whereas in Inquisition, you're always triumphing while Corypheus is steadily losing with no comeback...Kinda like watching a basketball game where the score is 96-3 and its clear the game is over and done but we apparently have to keep going Coach why!
...Ahem, the closest thing we got was the Mage/Templar choice and the Destruction of Haven and maybe the deaths of a few unimportant characters that we get mandatory replacements for that, also, are apparently better at the field anyways...and even if you can save those soon-to-be-replaced NPCs with even less-so interesting characters, you get no more interactions with them save for passing chit chat you can activate...
and is that giant citadel for us to use as our own?! That sure beats a rundown little village when it comes to having a military headquarters! Golly, thanks Solas! 
EDIT: Going back to Mass Effect, the second game's intro is particularly damaging if you played the first game, where...
Ignoring the gratuitous bloodshed bit, this:
(...) There are only two more games in the series as planned (...)
^ is not a thing.
I think once upon a time Mike made a comment about 5 dragon ages or whatever, but we're not on an X game contract. We can stop doing Dragon Age after DAI, or if we feel like we can keep doing interesting things and the franchise is successful, continue making more.
From here.
Mother Giselle should have been assassinated or killed at some point in the story like right before arbor wilds or right after the final battle. It would have been the perfect personal blow because she was like our moral compass or faith guide
I never really liked Giselle. She advocates lying to the faithful about Justinia saving you, tries to get Dorian out of the Inquisition and manipulates the Herald into becoming the Inquisitior.
As for a "red wedding" moment, it'd be hard to pull off. Where stuff like that was used in ME2 (both Collector attacks on the Normandy), it came across as slightly contrived. How did the Collectors find the Normandy even though it had it's stealth drives turned on? Why did Shepard and the squad get on a shuttle to a mission to nowhere? Something like that works early in the piece to motivate you, like Loghain's betrayal at Ostagar.
I guess a dlc where you play as a circle mage when it gets annulled
I'm not married to the idea of it being exactly like a "Red Wedding" it was just the first thing that came to mind when I thought of a lot of big character death. I am, however, concerned about the possibility of the franchise continuing beyond five, if they do I think they'll have to wrap things up within this period of history. I think the further they push the current timeline, it'll get harder and harder to make previous choices come back in a meaningful way. Players will have to start filling more and more gaps in with head-canon, and continue to get frustrated when it doesn't line up. This will be especially true with a new PC each game, and a clear intention on cultivating a stable of returning characters, which is why I think DA:I was relatively bloodless.
What I think (and hope) is happening, is that their building to an apocalyptic "old vs. new" conflict. Morrigan's comments about "skeletal hands reaching from the past" gave me that thought. Since a lot of this won't take place until the next-gen (which will hopefully be a lot better than this one, Xbox One and PS4 are underwhelming so far, IMHO) I'm hoping they'll have the capability to bring back all remaining PC's, LI's, and surviving companions for a continent-spanning war that puts a meaningful cap on all the major plot threads that have been introduced in these first three (Morrigan/Flemeth, Solas, Chantry reform, Blights, etc.).
Bringing back old companions with new PCs would really start to get annoying i.e. Varric as a companion in DA:VII would really lose its impact. For me he didn't feel as close to my Inquisitor as he did to Hawke, and all my Inquisitor did was argue with the returning DA:O characters, as they are both of the "any means necessary" mindset that my Warden was (My Inquisitor was a bit of a softy). Don't get me wrong, I like that they didn't immediately (or ever) get along, but at a certain point I think an Alistair/Morrigan/Varric/Leliana could just tell a new PC: "Shut up, I've done this shite like six times now, I know what I'm doing, why the hell are you in charge?" and unless they keep giving PC's Chosen One status (which would get REALLY old) you really couldn't argue back. (my bad lost my train of thought and jumped on my "slow it down with new PC's" train)
u cant kill Isabela and I think u missed Shale (she can be killed if u sided with the crazy dwarf).
u cant kill Isabela and I think u missed Shale (she can be killed if u sided with the crazy dwarf).
I forgot she gets away regardless, and I didn't think of that as I don't think they'll ever bring back Shale. Thanks for the correction.
No. Dragon Age needs to be original not try to be something it's not. GOT is pretty cool, but Dragon Age is best when it stays true to it's own vibe.
As forced killing off my favourite characters to be edgy and cool is a quick way for me to lose interest in a game/show I'd rather they avoid it as I'll stop playing/watching it right after. In some cases I don't mind it (Xenosaga for example, though that was at the very end of the last game), so if it's done well and at the very end with no hope of a sequel then sure, let there be blood.
At this point I'm solely playing recent BioWare games for the companions alone so killing them off isn't going to win them any more points from me.
Other than the lame end boss that was the only flaw in Mass Effect 2's suicide mission. I always felt that some casualties should have been unavoidable, and instead the best outcome would be one in which you only lost two or three squadmates.
But other than giving players an easy out, that was probably one of the more entertaining missions in the series. And I love that it utilizes the entire squad. We could use more of those sorts of missions in both the Mass Effect and Dragon Age series.
Which would just mean everyone gets rid of Jacob and Grunt or whoever else they didn't particularly like.
Or they have no real control at all, which would rightfully infuriate players and inevitably result in them spamming the mission until they get the results they want. Important characters living or dying should depend on more than just what an RNG spits out.
As forced killing off my favourite characters to be edgy and cool is a quick way for me to lose interest in a game/show I'd rather they avoid it as I'll stop playing/watching it right after. In some cases I don't mind it (Xenosaga for example, though that was at the very end of the last game), so if it's done well and at the very end with no hope of a sequel then sure, let there be blood.
At this point I'm solely playing recent BioWare games for the companions alone so killing them off isn't going to win them any more points from me.
I definitely agree, I'm bringing this up for some sort of endgame scenario. I mean did it make sense that NONE of the team that went to seal every Fade rift and dealt with every Corypheus appearance ever got wounded/killed?
Which would just mean everyone gets rid of Jacob and Grunt or whoever else they didn't particularly like.
Or they have no real control at all, which would rightfully infuriate players and inevitably result in them spamming the mission until they get the results they want. Important characters living or dying should depend on more than just what an RNG spits out.
I think the way to do it would be that the player wouldn't be choosing between anyone on the ME2 squad, but just between their biotics, or tech specialists, ect. Or you have it play out similar to the Divine election in DA:I where the impact of choices aren't immediately obvious and can't be gamed by the player without following a guide.
In any case there is no perfect solution and I'm sure some players would just go back and metagame on subsequent playthroughs to save certain characters, but just because some players cheat shouldn't be reason not to put companion characters in the line of fire.
Storytelling should always trump fan service, and with Mass Effect 2's suicide mission Bioware got those priorities reversed. There is all this build up throughout the game with characters repeatedly talking about how the final mission may be a one-way trip, even referring to it as a suicide mission in game. And yet when the mission actually comes around it is not only possible to get everyone through unscathed, but it is ridiculously easy to do so. It undercuts both the narrative and any emotional impact the mission may have otherwise had.
Some players need to get over their hang up about always needing a flawless victory option just because it's a video game. Protagonists don't always have a flawless victory in books or film, so why should that always be the case with the video games? If those players got their wish it would just serve to ensure that video games never become equal to films or books as a storytelling medium.
I think the way to do it would be that the player wouldn't be choosing between anyone on the ME2 squad, but just between their biotics, or tech specialists, ect. Or you have it play out similar to the Divine election in DA:I where the impact of choices aren't immediately obvious and can't be gamed by the player without following a guide.
In any case there is no perfect solution and I'm sure some players would just go back and metagame on subsequent playthroughs to save certain characters, but just because some players cheat shouldn't be reason not to put companion characters in the line of fire.
Storytelling should always trump fan service, and with Mass Effect 2's suicide mission Bioware got those priorities reversed. There is all this build up throughout the game with characters repeatedly talking about how the final mission may be a one-way trip, even referring to it as a suicide mission in game. And yet when the mission actually comes around it is not only possible to get everyone through unscathed, but it is ridiculously easy to do so. It undercuts both the narrative and any emotional impact the mission may have otherwise had.
Some players need to get over their hang up about always needing a flawless victory option just because it's a video game. Protagonists don't always have a flawless victory in books or film, so why should that always be the case with the video games? If those players got their wish it would just serve to ensure that video games never become equal to films or books as a storytelling medium.
First off, It's a video game. Not a calculus exam. And like all mainstream video games, it's audience is largely composed of kids and people of mediocre intelligence. If you have an ideas or examples of a way to make the puzzle fun and challenging and solveable without it being a frustration or a bore for a significant chunk of the audience, I'm all ears. But this is not and should not be the place for you to go looking for 'real difficulty' that will strain your problem solving abilities.
Secondly, this is the second game in the series, and one game at that. The Mass Effect series has killed off as many characters as plenty of other series. And in video games in general, death is pretty much as common as in any other medium. The inane implication that more death and failure equates to a more 'real' and intelligent story is holding back video games from maturity far, far more than any imagined insistence to not have anyone die. Of course it's holding back other mediums just as strongly.
Thirdly, I found the War Table mission saying "Support Cassandra as Divine" pretty bloody obvious. I found the dialogue option with Leliana saying "I'll support you as Divine" pretty bloody obvious.
First off, It's a video game. Not a calculus exam. And like all mainstream video games, it's audience is largely composed of kids and people of mediocre intelligence. If you have an ideas or examples of a way to make the puzzle fun and challenging without it being a frustration or a bore for a significant chunk of the audience, I'm all ears. But this is not and should not be the place for you to go looking for 'real difficulty' that will strain your problem solving abilities.
It isn't about the difficulty of the gameplay. It is about storytelling.
Secondly, this is the second game in the series, and one game at that. The Mass Effect series has killed off as many characters as plenty of other series. And in video games in general, death is pretty much as common as in any other medium. The inane implication that more death and failure equates to a more 'real' and intelligent story is holding back video games from maturity far, far more than any imagined insistence to not have anyone die. Of course it's holding back other mediums just as strongly.
The issue is that the final mission of Mass Effect 2 is hyped up throughout the game to be something it isn't. The actual outcome, at least if the player paid the least bit of attention, is a little anti-climactic. It isn't a suicide mission at all. That results in it being less emotionally impactful than it could have otherwise been.
To compare it to a film that also revolves around a suicide mission, imagine if the Dirty Dozen ended with the Dirty Dozen walking away completely unscathed at the end. That would be a completely different film than the version we have currently, and quite frankly a less interesting one.
So perhaps the solution would have been to significantly alter the suicide mission and the dialogue building up to it throughout the game.
I guess a dlc where you play as a circle mage when it gets annulled
Eh, no thanks to any game or DLC that forces you to play a specific class.
So perhaps the solution would have been to significantly alter the suicide mission and the dialogue building up to it throughout the game.
I'd be fine with that. In fact my preference would be for something like the suicide mission, except with some unavoidable casualties, ported to the finale of Mass Effect 3. One of the other issues with ME2 is that it created too many characters to account for, with variable fates, that there is no way they could ever get anything more than a cameo in the sequel. Determinant status is quite often the kiss of death for characters in video games, because the more branching paths you have the more difficult it is for the devs to account for all the variables. That is much less of a concern in a series finale.
I'd be fine with that. In fact my preference would be for something like the suicide mission, except with some unavoidable casualties, ported to the finale of Mass Effect 3. One of the other issues with ME2 is that it created too many characters to account for, with variable fates, that there is no way they could ever get anything more than a cameo in the sequel. Determinant status is quite often the kiss of death for characters in video games, because the more branching paths you have the more difficult it is for the devs to account for all the variables. That is much less of a concern in a series finale.
Any kind of 'generic squadmate death' moment is going to be very weak. Any moment of 'X character dies' where X is drawn from a pool.
It prevents the scene from having any content or theme beyond everyone going-sad eyed and saying "Oh no! X is dead" or somesuch variant. Which is just what happened on the Suicide Mission. Compare, say, Mordin's death to that. It's not even a comparison in the power of the scene.
So that's not something to be sought after, particularly at the climax of the story.
It should be confined to a single character, or drawn from two or perhaps at the very most three. And they should preferably be characters with some sort of connection, not just be the two characters who happen to be biotics or whatever.
While it was still quite different than the red wedding in terms of conclusion, I still think Champions Of The Just managed to have a red wedding-esque feel to the mission, with the bad guys getting the jump on the templars and the inquisitor.
I think the way to do it would be that the player wouldn't be choosing between anyone on the ME2 squad, but just between their biotics, or tech specialists, ect. Or you have it play out similar to the Divine election in DA:I where the impact of choices aren't immediately obvious and can't be gamed by the player without following a guide.
In any case there is no perfect solution and I'm sure some players would just go back and metagame on subsequent playthroughs to save certain characters, but just because some players cheat shouldn't be reason not to put companion characters in the line of fire.
Storytelling should always trump fan service, and with Mass Effect 2's suicide mission Bioware got those priorities reversed. There is all this build up throughout the game with characters repeatedly talking about how the final mission may be a one-way trip, even referring to it as a suicide mission in game. And yet when the mission actually comes around it is not only possible to get everyone through unscathed, but it is ridiculously easy to do so. It undercuts both the narrative and any emotional impact the mission may have otherwise had.
Some players need to get over their hang up about always needing a flawless victory option just because it's a video game. Protagonists don't always have a flawless victory in books or film, so why should that always be the case with the video games? If those players got their wish it would just serve to ensure that video games never become equal to films or books as a storytelling medium.
I would say that an option to have everyone survive the suicide mission is vital. The fact that it's been hyped up so much means that actually beating everyone's predictions and making it out alive becomes a lot more emotionally meaningful; certainly I cheered a bit when I got a perfect score.
Now, you might want to make it harder to do somehow, and that's fine, but it should most definitely still be present.
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