65 réponses à ce sujet

[BansheeOwnage]

Everyone's arguing! Quick, the solution is to forget you were fighting and respond to my post! I mean, I think that's the proper procedure...

[Bioware-Critic]

Everyone's arguing! Quick, the solution is to forget you were fighting and respond to my post! I mean, I think that's the proper procedure...

 

You're a "Cool Cat" ...

[DomeWing333]

I don't think a tooltip is necessary. They just need to do a better job at making sure the dialogue wheel summary accurately captures the tone of what's being said. When I select "You failed her. Go home." I expect a brisk, heartless dismissal, not a frank, but thoughtful piece of advice.

[Bioware-Critic]

I don't think a tooltip is necessary. They just need to do a better job at making sure the dialogue wheel summary accurately captures the tone of what's being said. When I select "You failed her. Go home." I expect a brisk, heartless dismissal, not a frank, but thoughtful piece of advice.

 

If they were thorough in that regard it would certainly be a big step in the right direction!

But it was always so damn "hit and miss" in the last several games since the dialogue wheel appeared ...

[BansheeOwnage]

I don't think a tooltip is necessary. They just need to do a better job at making sure the dialogue wheel summary accurately captures the tone of what's being said. When I select "You failed her. Go home." I expect a brisk, heartless dismissal, not a frank, but thoughtful piece of advice.

I agree that they need to improve getting the proper tone across the preview (again, why get rid of icons?), but I still think there would be no harm in adding the preview as an option that would default to being disabled.

[Bioware-Critic]

I agree that they need to improve getting the proper tone across the preview (again, why get rid of icons?), but I still think there would be no harm in adding the preview as an option that would default to being disabled.

 

Did you, by any chance, see the annotations they created and had shown of in the Inquisition-panel before release? I really liked those!

 

Apart from that ... A preview would be great or rather ideal, really!

But I got the impression they don't want to do that, because ... "reasons" ...

[AlanC9]

You are nothing but rude and aggressive! And you are disrespectful ...
Keep your dilusional nonsense to yourself, AlanC9!

Why delusional?

Because all you write, AlanC9, is your opinion! Yet you tell me you are not interested in anyone's opinion, yourself.
I have got nothin' ...

Yeah, English is a little ambiguous there, and I should have anticipated that this would confuse you. We use "opinion" to refer to both value judgements, such as a critic's opinion of a work, and judgements about the state of the world, such as a medical opinion. You see the difference, right? A doctor can be wrong in a way that a critic can't.

It's only value judgements that I'm uninterested in. Judgements about the state of the world are what I engage with. We were talking about Bio's testing methodology, remember. This is something that exists no matter what we think about it.

[Wintermist]

I really don't believe it was because people didn't like it. If there was an option to turn that off it's no different than any other feature person A likes but person B hates. Just take the thing about turning the subtitles themselves on or off - some people like it, some don't yet both can set it to their preference.

[Bioware-Critic]

Yeah, English is a little ambiguous there, and I should have anticipated that this would confuse you. We use "opinion" to refer to both value judgements, such as a critic's opinion of a work, and judgements about the state of the world, such as a medical opinion. You see the difference, right? A doctor can be wrong in a way that a critic can't.

It's only value judgements that I'm uninterested in. Judgements about the state of the world are what I engage with. We were talking about Bio's testing methodology, remember. This is something that exists no matter what we think about it.

 

In my humble opinion, AlanC9, I disagree with you having the capability to define "the exact" ... "state of the world" ... or rather the exact testing methology! In my humble opinion, I rather think that you constantly occasionally think of your own opinion  a little "higher" than you really should For all your enthusiasm towards the discussions you may want to lead and all the honest intentions you may have ... in the end ... you are just a consumer and not a BioWare employee! Which makes your thoughts and expressions "a regular opinion". You do not have the facts at hand you think you have or sometimes do imply to have ... to back up what you fiercly try to defend or to explain.

 

You don't need to insult me by condescending me or others just to make the point that you have a "theory" about something - which I think is all there is to it, really. We have different point of views ... and in my mind ... that is okay, really.

 

Since I believe that this answer of mine is not to your liking and that the both of us will need 50 postings (at least) to clear these talking points ...

 

I want to make one thing CRYSTAL CLEAR!

 

I do not want us both to clutter the threads here on the BSN with our nonsensical debates about who has misunderstood whom !!!

DO YOU GET ME? Well, I know for a fact that you do. So, please, AlanC9, let us - for everything that is holy - stop arguing about this stuff and just let us both refrain from quoting each other !!! All we could ever hope for is wasting EVERYONE ELSES thread-space !!!

 

So ... dear AlanC9 ... this is good-bye!

 

Take care and have fun writing on the BSN ...

 

 

Cherio!

 

 

(P.s.: If you must get something of your chest or whatever - you can PM me No problem at all!)

[BansheeOwnage]

Did you, by any chance, see the annotations they created and had shown of in the Inquisition-panel before release? I really liked those!

If I did, I didn't really notice them. Too bad they opted to scrap the idea. It's like saying: "We had the option to hide helmets, but we decided to cut it, even thought the system was in place, because reasons."

 

I really don't believe it was because people didn't like it. If there was an option to turn that off it's no different than any other feature person A likes but person B hates. Just take the thing about turning the subtitles themselves on or off - some people like it, some don't yet both can set it to their preference.

Agreed. If they did scrap it because people didn't respond positively, they really need to think about it themselves rather than just listen blindly to testers. Exactly like subtitles! Just another option for the player. What I really don't get it that they currently have a toggle for tone icons (which are ridiculously rare), but not this.

[Wintermist]

Agreed. If they did scrap it because people didn't respond positively, they really need to think about it themselves rather than just listen blindly to testers. Exactly like subtitles! Just another option for the player. What I really don't get it that they currently have a toggle for tone icons (which are ridiculously rare), but not this.

 

And sadly - I don't think we'll ever find out the truth nor get our wish, atleast not for this game (not that one will stop hoping). In the future, if they stick to the wheel maybe we'll get it.

 

The circle (wheel) itself isn't bad. It's space effective and you CAN fit more than 3 options on each side.

[AlanC9]

I really don't believe it was because people didn't like it. If there was an option to turn that off it's no different than any other feature person A likes but person B hates. Just take the thing about turning the subtitles themselves on or off - some people like it, some don't yet both can set it to their preference.

I've been digging around for what Bio actually had to say about this. I found this, but it's from pretty late in the discussion.

Not every design issue is solvable by a toggle-- it always sounds like the best idea (everyone's happy!) but just forces us to deal with the consequences of both options rather than just one, as valid options must be equally supported.

In this case, the existence of player VO means the lines are written differently. So knowing the actual text of the line may give you more insight, but would probably fall down just about as often as paraphrases (albeit in different ways). There will always be places where options don't do what you think they will-- even in Origins, with its lack of VO, had this... and if you think it didn't and wasn't occasionally complained about, you're fooling yourselves.

The origin of the request (for many people, at least) seems to stem from the nuance of not being able to imagine a line spoken as they wish and less from a factual difference in the line versus the paraphrase. While the latter can be fixed with seeing the full line, the former cannot, and thus for many people is effort spent to not really address their base issue.

It also, quite frankly, isn't something we feel works very well. We're leery about putting in an option that many people will opt for without realizing the full implication ("More information on the dialogue? Hell, yes! I love dialogue!"). They wouldn't come and complain that they don't like the hover text, they'd complain that the dialogue seems slow or repetitive. Sylvius likes to counter this by saying we shouldn't protect players from themselves, but that is indeed exactly our job as designers. Not everyone is as aware of every nuance of the system as the people who come here to these forums-- actually, very far from everyone indeed.

If someone disagrees with that, it's fine. We investigated it, tried it out ourselves (various versions, in fact) and in the end put it aside. I know some people will categorize this as "you aren't listening", but we did listen and looked into it thoroughly and decided it wasn't what we wanted or what we thought could be made to work as an option. That's really the best we can do.

[Wintermist]

I've been digging around for what Bio actually had to say about this. I found this, but it's from pretty late in the discussion.
 

 

That doesn't really compute so well with me...

 

They decided to not do it so people wouldn't complain that the intentions of the dialogue option wasn't as accurate as the first line the character would say would be indicating. That is, however, exactly what we're complaining about now?! Not being able to see, in my case, how heartless the dialogue actually was from a dialogue option that didn't at all look to be this bad.

 

That reasoning aside, I have a feeling seeing that first line gives us a much better indication of what is to come rather than 3 or 4 words trying to convey it.

[BansheeOwnage]

That doesn't really compute so well with me...

 

They decided to not do it so people wouldn't complain that the intentions of the dialogue option wasn't as accurate as the first line the character would say would be indicating. That is, however, exactly what we're complaining about now?! Not being able to see, in my case, how heartless the dialogue actually was from a dialogue option that didn't at all look to be this bad.

 

That reasoning aside, I have a feeling seeing that first line gives us a much better indication of what is to come rather than 3 or 4 words trying to convey it.

Especially for tone. It's a lot easier to guess the tone by reading the first line. It's really annoying when I pick the middle option expecting to hear a sarcastic line, then the Inquisitor just says it flat, etc.

[Bioware-Critic]

Still! 

 

If you make this optional - give us the opportunity to toggle it on and off ...

... I really don't care about his (Gaiders) evasive argument about compromising the text for having it fit two settings!! 

 

Putting this "in" is still very beneficial -  period!

[AlanC9]

In my humble opinion[/u], AlanC9, I disagree with you having the capability to define "the exact" ... "state of the world" ... or rather the exact testing methology!

Never said I had any special insights; I just read stuff and remember it. But remember how we got here? I questioned you about what you were saying concerning the testing. I never actually got as far as critiquing your position because you didn't state it with enough precision to be discussed. I still don't know if you think the problem is that Bio's mistaken as to what players actually want, if you think the tastes of "RPG fans" should be prioritized over other players' tastes, or if it's something else altogether. We didn't get to the substance because you instead went off about me not respecting your opinions. Are you sure this isn't a carryover from that thread you got locked a couple of days back?

As for the rest -- if your intention is to stop wasting thread space on this stuff, is blowing up that part of your reply into a huge colored font really the most effective communication strategy?

[Bioware-Critic]

Never said I had any special insights; I just read stuff and remember it. But remember how we got here? I questioned you about what you were saying concerning the testing. I never actually got as far as critiquing your position because you didn't state it with enough precision to be discussed. I still don't know if you think the problem is that Bio's mistaken as to what players actually want, if you think the tastes of "RPG fans" should be prioritized over other players' tastes, or if it's something else altogether. We didn't get to the substance because you instead went off about me not respecting your opinions. Are you sure this isn't a carryover from that thread you got locked a couple of days back?

As for the rest -- if your intention is to stop wasting thread space on this stuff, is blowing up that part of your reply into a huge colored font really the most effective communication strategy?

Writing from phone... 

 

We don't have a effective communication! I hope you remember that as well ... 

 

Make up your own mind! 

I am done with explaining myself to you! 

[zyntifox]

A feature such as this would make my experience a lot more enjoyable. Currently i am doing a lot of saving and reloading due to misinterpreting the paraphrase. I don't know, maybe it's because i'm not a native english speaker but the current system creates a lot of frustration and hurts the overall experience of the game for me. Had the same problems with mass effect.

[In Exile]

I agree that they need to improve getting the proper tone across the preview (again, why get rid of icons?), but I still think there would be no harm in adding the preview as an option that would default to being disabled.

The thing is that the DAI dialogue is often neutral enough and natural enough (e.g. even more diplomatic options can be humourous) that a tone doesn't really work.

If anything the choice is really Support/Agree, Deflect/Neutral, Disapprove/Disagree in the regular conversation.

[In Exile]

That doesn't really compute so well with me...

They decided to not do it so people wouldn't complain that the intentions of the dialogue option wasn't as accurate as the first line the character would say would be indicating. That is, however, exactly what we're complaining about now?! Not being able to see, in my case, how heartless the dialogue actually was from a dialogue option that didn't at all look to be this bad.

That reasoning aside, I have a feeling seeing that first line gives us a much better indication of what is to come rather than 3 or 4 words trying to convey it.

You don't know why they rejected it or what the versions were that they considered. They might all be worse.

[BansheeOwnage]

The thing is that the DAI dialogue is often neutral enough and natural enough (e.g. even more diplomatic options can be humourous) that a tone doesn't really work.

If anything the choice is really Support/Agree, Deflect/Neutral, Disapprove/Disagree in the regular conversation.

Disagree. There are plenty of options where this is simply not true. DA2 had more than just 3 tone icons. There were at least 6 that I remember, and if  you had a similar system in DA:I, you wouldn't necessarily have to have the same 3 in all conversations either. Example:

 

Yesterday I talked to Blackwall. He asked me if I knew what happened next in his story. I took the bottom option of "Of course not." Now, without a tone indicator, I don't really know if it's going to sound humorous, snarky, or just rude. Turns out it was rude, which wasn't what I wanted. I was hoping for a "Blackwall, how could I possibly know what happened next? "

 

Now, if we had more tone icons like in DA2, we would instantly know if we would sound:

 

For the top option: kind, diplomatic, or empathetic

Middle option: neutral, deflective, or sarcastic

Bottom option: rude, pragmatic, or brisk

 

Because I've heard all of those, and it sucks to have to play a guessing game for each option.

[Bioware-Critic]

You don't know why they rejected it or what the versions were that they considered. They might all be worse.

 

Yes, but the fact that they (BioWare) maybe would have to put some more work into anything really does not change that a very good and very beneficial tool is a very nice addition. BioWare themselves thought so and created it. For wjat reason they scrapped it in the end ... no one knows.

 

But that does not change that I really would like them to add it in at some point. And to make ... for example ... an option where everyone can turn it on and off should be straight forward enough to deal with the issues Mr. Gaider described! Besides, there are many cool things you could develope in this area. And I am convinced BioWare is always trying to do something in the "conversation area" to help us get more connected to and more use out of the conversation wheel and such things!

 

The discussion about the precission of the conversation wheel is going on since it appeared and BioWare themselves are interested in making it better. That is reason enough for me to give all sorts of feedback on it. I really don't care if my feedback is perfect or if it is just (some sort of) inspiration for them

[Kantr]

If you have watched the panels before release ... they showed to us the annotations they developed for DA:I because so many fans requested the same as you did! But for whatever reason (my money goes on: EA thinks that casuals don't want to read and gamers in general are stupid as ...) they removed the annotations from the release version of the game.

 

>> So BioWare already reacted to that specific request and did a very nice job of it, too!

>> But THEY REMOVED ALL OF IT FOR NO REASON AT ALL just before release.

 

I really don't care about what sort of explanation they will ever give for that ... because I know I will never believe the official PR version that comes out of their mouths!

Play testers didnt like it and the DA:I of 2013 was a private session

[Sylvius the Mad]

I've been digging around for what Bio actually had to say about this. I found this, but it's from pretty late in the discussion.

Given the largely neutral tone throughout DAI, I think David's comment about not being able to imagine a tone no longer applies, because it wasn't (at least for me) so much about imaging a tone as it was about imagining an intent, which is something I'm convinced all players do (even the ones who think they're actually discerning an intended tone - I think they're imagining it).

And with the neutral tone dialogue in DAI, I find that imagining the intent works really well. Because the lines are delivered flat, almost any intent I imagine still works.

So then all I'm missing is the full text.

Also, with the full text, I could just mute the voices and then all would be well.

[Bioware-Critic]

Play testers didnt like it and the DA:I of 2013 was a private session

 

Writing from tablet ... 

 

Playtesters are playtesters ... why should I care about a handful of people no one knows the first thing about. I cannot possibly comment on the composition of the group of playtesters!  And if no one knows how they judge the game ... How can I form a opinion about their input for myself? No. I must leave them out of the equation ...

And besides -  aren't WE ALL playtesterd, here,  Kantr ?!? I know I am ... 

 

I am just a fan.  But I will give my feedback here as I think is right / adequate.

The session being private? What does that have to do with anything? Please elaborate ...  

 

As of now - I would prefer BioWare will keep working on it and ... in the future ... find a good solution.  

I would love that!