26 réponses à ce sujet

[MagicalMaster]

Dante made a comment here on a topic I've been mulling over lately and I figured I'd try to open it up to broader discussion.

 

We all have certain gameplay aspects we just don't like (mine are rest restrictions greater than 5 real life minutes and over-customization of spells and feats to the point where you're no longer playing NWN with some tweaks, but an entirely different game that shares the same game engine) and I want to know ahead of time what changes have been made. 

 

Emphasis mine.

 

I'm particularly interested since, as some of you know, I've been building and testing some stuff for a PW I'm thinking about making and I'm trying to figure out just how much to change.  Too little and many of the game's default issues remain and you potentially alienate people who are tired of those issues, too much and you potentially alienate people like Dante who want something more like "traditional" NWN.  But that doesn't necessarily mean a "sweet spot" in the middle winds up being best -- you might have to simply tailor your world to one end of the spectrum or wind up not appealing enough to anyone!

 

If you've played Siege of the Heavens or A Peremptory Summons then you're aware I'm fond of scripted boss fights that require the player to react to things happening during the encounter rather than just making an enemy that deals a lot of damage and has a lot of hit points.  This means that the boss battles last at least several minutes and sometimes have different phases where the boss does different things.  Default NWN tends to encourage the following for a mage against a single boss...

 

Maximized IGMS x10 (or however many spell slots per level you have)

Empowered IGMS x10

Silenced IGMS x10

IGMS x10

 

Or, if there's a lot of AoE in the encounter (or trash packs) you tend to get...

 

Maximized Firebrand x10

Empowered Firebrand x10

Silenced Firebrand x10

Firebrand x10

 

Saying that I don't think this is a very interesting or engaging result would be putting it politely.  Yeah, if it's one of my bosses then at least you're having to react to what the boss is doing during the fight (as opposed to literally just standing there and nuking the boss) but even then you're still spamming the same spell potentially 40+ times in a row.  And of course the melee/ranged attackers are just auto-attacking the whole time (I'm not even sure if that's better or worse -- at least they don't have to keep targeting the spells).

 

As an extreme solution I've been testing parts of what would be a complete redesign of NWN's combat system.  Same classes and general archetypes but every class would be primarily using activated abilities.  Casters have a new spell system (non-Vancian) and physical attackers have instant abilities (with cooldowns) -- and the spells/abilities of a character interact with each other to create more dynamic play.  There would also be new stats scripted into the system like Critical Strike (chance to deal extra damage with spells/abilities), Concealment (chance to avoid spells/abilities/attacks), and at least another three I already have in mind.  It would literally be a situation "where you're no longer playing NWN with some tweaks, but an entirely different game that shares the same game engine."

 

And I've also been considering a more moderate approach -- one that is still a major overhaul of NWN spells and classes but mostly tweaking values rather than overhauling the entire combat system.  The end goal is still to encourage more spell variety/balance and there would still be a minimum of one new scripted stat (that would increase your spell or auto-attack damage) but the game would generally play the same way and feature the same feats/spells.  Which means you'll still likely spam your best spell 10 times, followed by your second best spell 10 times, followed by your third best spell 10 times, etc for casters and basically do nothing but autoattack as ranged/melee attackers (except for when you need to move or switch targets during a fight).

 

I'm not sure which approach would wind up better.  The more extreme method will definitely alienate many people but many others might be interested specifically due to it being so different.  The more moderate method would be more familiar to people and maybe the combat would be "good enough"...but it still might alienate the same people who would be alienated by the more extreme method anyway (as it would still be more change than most PWs).

 

So, how much is too much for you (general you, not Dante specifically)?

 

Is there a minimum amount of modification you'd require to play somewhere?  At what point (if any) would you refuse to play on a PW due to it changing so much from default NWN?  For the two above questions, are you looking at specific things you want (not) changed, is it more sheer quantity of changes, or a mix of both?  Etc.

 

Rather curious about any perspectives people want to share on the issue.

[Zwerkules]

Simple. If it keeps you from writing a proper story and creating an immersive town, land, world, universe (however big your plans are) every little gameplay modification is too much.

[Gruftlord]

Scripted bossfights sound super awesome, i might try one of your mods just for that.

 

But in general i would also say i play NWN for the stories, the rp and because i know the system inside out. I know the mechanics,i know which character builds work and which i like and this in return allows me to focus more on the other things. I know there are some limitations to the game, and i look for modules that diminish them. lower levels/magic, few immunity items, tweaks to spell durations/damage die, tweaks to stuff like HipS or devastating blow, i'm all fine with. (Think Aielund Saga or Forgotten Realms Cormyr PW).

 

Learning the ropes of an all new system glued to the nwn engine with some hoops and tricks? You'd have to convince me to try it. You'd be competing with newer games that come with new systems built into their core, have an active community and wikis where i can learn all i desire about their systems. I like learning new systems and finding character builds i might enjoy playing, in fact it's a huge part of my enjoyment of games. But that part of me (as opposed to the part that just plays the game and enjoys the story and rp) demands stuff like extensive forum discussions about the ins and outs of every talent and collective sources of all the little details available online.

 

Not sure how representative i am with this though...

[leo_x]

It's never too much, so long as it's documented and relatively transparent*.  No one goes to the store, picks up a cool looking RPG, scans the covers, and puts it back on the shelf with a sigh because they'd have to learn some new rules.  Why should PWs be any different?  My perspective is a bit biased tho:

1. I don't think DND rules are particularly great, appropriate, or efficient for action RPGs (at least non-tactical ones); plus they're jam packed with useless cruft.
2. I've already created a replacement scripting engine and combat engine (and have already moved to % based / fractional critical hit system and want to move the attack roll to a more WoW/ARPG style.), so I'm quite invested in my belief that alternate rule systems are a good thing for NWN.

3. I truly believe that a wider range of rules and systems would have attracted more players, more builders, and also maybe just people that wanted to cut their teeth on gamedev (and who couldn't care less about DND).   It's kind of moot now, but...

* I.e. One doesn't need to know much more than 'just click on monsters' to get started.  It can be argued that DND fails at that.

 

----

 

As for me and my server:  I feel like it was a mistake for my medium-high magic server to go the 'boost this, boost that' route.  If I had do it all over I would have taken a radical approach:

• d20s? Gone... use percentage based systems.
• A spell/feat/skill isn't valuable?  Delete it.  Maybe repurpose it later after a solid core of useful/fun things have been found...
• Item Properties?  Redo them all from scratch with an eye towards efficient randomization and more varied itemization.
• Spells?  I'd love to drop vancian magic.

[ehye_khandee]

Friends,

Lessons from ice cream.

Some people like pistachio.

I'm not a pistachio sort myself, more of a mint-chocolate-chip person myself, but some people like pistachio.

Some ice cream vendors offer chocolate and vanilla, and they leave out a strong appeal for both the 'pistachio crowd' and 'mint-chocolate-chippers. Still, it is ICE CREAM that most people love, and flavoring of the ice cream is essentially incidental. Yes we all have favorites, and anti-favorites. Think of a module/game world like an ice cream store. In this case, it is NWN that most people love, and the details are essentially incidental. Remember that you cannot please everyone all the time. No matter what you build, some will love your work, some will be neutral, some revile it. This is life.

Build what makes you happy. Reach out to like minded gamers. Above all have fun.

 

Where the mage strategy limits come into play - I must say NWN offers a very limited sub-set of spells from D&D, at minimum, the expansion of the spell selection can reduce/eliminate this, as can the use of sophisticated AI scripting in NPCs.

[Frith5]

In lieu of the power of a live DM who prepares scenarios ahead of time, usually with foreknowledge of his players and their tactics/likes/etc.... I think it becomes necessary for the NWN Builder to try to compensate with clever design choices. So your 'scripted battles' sound like a great method. Beyond (or perhaps it is before) actual script limitations, there are design points that can shape a battle so that simply clicking and using a barrage of the same spells over and over is neither desirable nor effective. Making the environment non-conducive to spellcasting, or at least keeping a spellcaster under threat, having line of sight issues, targeting concerns, personal safety issues (swarms of creatures in the caster's face while the powerful foe is safely across the chasm), time limitations (the place is gonna come down on their heads pretty quickly), those sorts of things can change a straight slug-fest to a more dynamic feeling battle. Having the enemy move is probably one of the best things; they don't stand their like marble and take it, but strike and fade.
I know some people don't like the D&D rules, but to me one of the things that makes those rules harder in a CRPG isn't the rules, but the lack of the balancing rules that a tabletop game has, to keep it from being only a series of attacks/moves/spells. Things like required spell components, specific prayer times, food/drink can all place limits on spells and other abilities which rather than taking away the fun help make each activity more meaningful. It sounds backward to some to have to make sure they have oil for their lantern before heading out of town to slay the ogres. Who cares about that minutiae?! But if it's pitch dark and your lantern "begins to flicker" and you realize it's gonna go out in a few more minutes of game time, -- you care. And what you do next matters a lot more than if you only have to pull out another torch that will suddenly light when you lift it up.

Anyway, to me learning new systems within a familiar game is not onerous, and if introduced a bit at a time it's almost invisible. And those kinds of changes make the game alive for me.

 

-JFK

[henesua]

If its fun for you to make the changes, make them.

[Tchos]

Werelynx advises, in Perfecting Your Module:

 

Avoid original Bioware content, substituting it with Custom Content whenever you can. (Tilesets, Monsters, NPCs, Script Systems(Death etc.)

 

With script systems being included there, this could be interpreted as changing everything you can.

[ShadowM]

Do what you think will makes the game fun, like others have said some will like it and some will not. Nothing appeals to everyone, well besides scripted boss battles . Just use your experience and do some test with friends and groups for feedback.

[MrZork]

[...]
Default NWN tends to encourage the following for a mage against a single boss...
 
Maximized IGMS x10 (or however many spell slots per level you have)
Empowered IGMS x10
Silenced IGMS x10
IGMS x10
[...]

I agree that the game can reward that kind of play. But, ultimately, players who play mages in that way have a boring playstyle. Either that sort of play keeps them entertained and they have no reason to complain or they have none but themselves to blame when nothing is challenging. EXCEPT when a module builder assumes that everyone will play that way and surviving the module becomes nigh impossible without those tactics. "Well, this is a level 20 encounter, so the mages will have 5 maximized Flame Arrows, so my boss has to have at least 600 HP...." Then, it's the module-builder's issue for designing to accommodate an uninteresting playstyle.

 

I like the idea of scripted boss encounters. And, not just the boss himself, but it's also fun when his lieutenants and guards are doing something interesting / coordinated / etc. That can involve altering some of the AI, but it doesn't necessarily require much re-wiring of the game itself.

BTW, though I appreciate the point of your example, I think it's more realistic that bosses don't show up alone and that many of them (e.g. intelligent bosses, casters, etc.) will have things set up so that their henchmen stay near and aren't so stupid as to get pulled off one at a time until the boss is alone. They should go where he goes and possibly spawn replacements for any who wander too far from him.)

 

I am a middle-grounder when it comes to modifications. There are some things I prefer to see changed. E.g.

• Change things that are clearly bugged. I have mentioned a few such things in the past (e.g. Evard's size modifiers, the center of the AoE for Dismissal, etc.)
• Change things where that thing is of minimal value as-is, to the point where no one who knows better (and I don't just mean power gamers) uses them. For example, the Blinding Speed feat and the Tenser's Transformation spell are largely unused because of various limitations. Those are two examples that are improved with easy scripting changes, but there are plenty of feats (and some spells) that would be tougher to improve, if alterations were possible at all (e.g. make Combat Casting do something more useful).
• Change things where that thing provides ridiculous benefit for very little investment and makes it difficult to create challenging encounters for a wide variety of characters. An obvious (though not easy to address) example would be to limit the monk wisdom AC bonus to +1 or +2 AC per level of monk.

And there are some things I don't prefer to see changed. The underlying combat and spell mechanics of NWN have some serious flaws. But, it becomes difficult to change them without really losing the NWN feel of gameplay.

[Shadooow]

Simple answer. Higher Grounds PW. Thats too much. I enjoy action and hack&slash type of modules but the modifications that HG has, especially graphical changes on all abilities are too much for me to accept.

[PracticalKat]

I really enjoy your scripted boss fights in SotH.  I'm probably not one of the target audience for your changes, as I only play single player, but part of what keeps me playing NWN 1 and 2 is that I know the game mechanics.  I don't have to relearn feats and spells and how stats work.

 

That means I could load SotH, build some Level 40 characters (for the first time) and throw them into battle straight away.  All that said, I'll echo others and say "do what you think will make it enjoyable".  Strength to your arm! 

[Jfoxtail]

Not to put too fine a point on it ladies and gentlemen.. but you are not playing Neverwinter Nights.

 

You are playing Dungeons & Dragons 3.0 in a computerized format.

 

(perhaps this is what Dante is inferring ; but I would not put words in his/her mouth)

 

Mechanics of a game engine are simply the methodology to digitize a Pen and Paper rule set. Some are fantastically implemented (prestige classes, multi-classing etc add nasuem) others are ridiculously inept (circle kick?  prestige class etc add nauseum).

 

The greater the degree of customization ~ in all likelihood the further away from D&D 3.0 you move.

 

I have not been an active PW or co-op player in some time but you as builders should understand; the largest audience are those that love D & D and all its "quirks in NWN".

 

When you spend umpteen hours customizing the game you risk alienating a larger part of your audience. Especially the further it moves away from D & D. 

 

Nerfs and game balance changes have been around since NWN day 2. Some popular (resting restrictions) some not so popular (resting restrictions AGAIN!). LOL

 

The general advice here is very sound. Build what you want for love of the game; there is no way in which to please everyone.

 

But if you have changed so much that it no longer resembles D & D ; and all its quirks and goofiness - then don't expect that everyone will see what you have arrived at as "better". Their not your fans... they are fans of D&D. You are sharing your love of the game with other players and most other players will appreciate your contribution if it is essentially D & D.

 

Hope that little pearl of wisdom is helpful. :cheers:

[Jfoxtail]

 

It's never too much, so long as it's documented and relatively transparent*.  No one goes to the store, picks up a cool looking RPG, scans the covers, and puts it back on the shelf with a sigh because they'd have to learn some new rules.  Why should PWs be any different?  My perspective is a bit biased tho:

1. I don't think DND rules are particularly great, appropriate, or efficient for action RPGs (at least non-tactical ones); plus they're jam packed with useless cruft.
2. I've already created a replacement scripting engine and combat engine (and have already moved to % based / fractional critical hit system and want to move the attack roll to a more WoW/ARPG style.), so I'm quite invested in my belief that alternate rule systems are a good thing for NWN.

3. I truly believe that a wider range of rules and systems would have attracted more players, more builders, and also maybe just people that wanted to cut their teeth on gamedev (and who couldn't care less about DND).   It's kind of moot now, but...

* I.e. One doesn't need to know much more than 'just click on monsters' to get started.  It can be argued that DND fails at that.

 

----

 

As for me and my server:  I feel like it was a mistake for my medium-high magic server to go the 'boost this, boost that' route.  If I had do it all over I would have taken a radical approach:

• d20s? Gone... use percentage based systems.
• A spell/feat/skill isn't valuable?  Delete it.  Maybe repurpose it later after a solid core of useful/fun things have been found...
• Item Properties?  Redo them all from scratch with an eye towards efficient randomization and more varied itemization.
• Spells?  I'd love to drop vancian magic.

 

All of which is very interesting...

 

..but then its not D&D as you correctly note.

 

It sounds a lot like Runequest (??) or perhaps Rolemaster (??)

[Jfoxtail]

The final note is too the thread the OP has linked.

 

The top selling games cited on such sites as GOG and to a lesser degree Steam are actually D & D games. Be it Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2, Baldur's Gate and its various iterations, Icewind Dales likewise.

 

I am sure some of the audience to buy and play these games are based upon the developers and their reputation for quality. However I think Skyrim and Diablo also have very good reputations and popularity with their community.

 

I am fairly certain that the D & D reputation is perhaps the strongest point in the buyers "cognitive response". D & D is such a mainstream well known cultural reference. (I mean the guys on Big Bang Theory play D & D not Tunnels and Trolls or Chivalry and Sorcery    ) 

 

Even if newish players are awe stuck by the quirky rules and arcane features of the game... all that needs to be done it to simplify it a bit.

 

Heck TSR and Wizards of the Coast have been trying the same thing for 20 years - surely that's no hang up is it ?

[MagicalMaster]

Interesting responses so far everyone, thanks.  Not going to respond specifically to people who more or less said "Hey, sounds like a good idea to me" or "If you have fun doing it, go for it" as this is going to be long enough and with enough quotes already, but I did notice and it's appreciated.  For other stuff...

 

Simple. If it keeps you from writing a proper story and creating an immersive town, land, world, universe (however big your plans are) every little gameplay modification is too much.

 

I would completely agree.  That said, it would have no impact in my case in terms of the final result -- it would only potentially delay the release.  World/story/etc would be the same either way.

 

But in general i would also say i play NWN for the stories, the rp and because i know the system inside out. I know the mechanics,i know which character builds work and which i like and this in return allows me to focus more on the other things. I know there are some limitations to the game, and i look for modules that diminish them. lower levels/magic, few immunity items, tweaks to spell durations/damage die, tweaks to stuff like HipS or devastating blow, i'm all fine with. (Think Aielund Saga or Forgotten Realms Cormyr PW).

 

Learning the ropes of an all new system glued to the nwn engine with some hoops and tricks? You'd have to convince me to try it. You'd be competing with newer games that come with new systems built into their core, have an active community and wikis where i can learn all i desire about their systems. I like learning new systems and finding character builds i might enjoy playing, in fact it's a huge part of my enjoyment of games. But that part of me (as opposed to the part that just plays the game and enjoys the story and rp) demands stuff like extensive forum discussions about the ins and outs of every talent and collective sources of all the little details available online.

 

Makes sense.  Out of curiosity, have you ever played on Higher Ground? (PW action server with massive changes, including a post 40 leveling system).  If so, is the amount of discussion on their forums extensive enough for you?

 

Regarding the first half, one of my concerns is that I want to increase the level cap over time.  With my custom system it would probably go something like 10 -> 16 -> 22 -> 28 -> 34 -> 40.  With the default system, I'd probably have to have the first "cap" at 20 and then go 25 -> 30 -> 35 -> 40 (and yes, that would be one less "rung" as well).  This is because the toolset and spells per day of casters change very radically up until level 20 and I don't think it's possible to effectively balance the spells/spell slots for an extended period at level 10, then an extended period at level 16, and then an extended period at level 22+ with the same modifications.

 

In default NWN the issue is "avoided" since you just accept that certain classes are better at certain levels than others and you keep moving through the levels anyway (or cap it at a certain point and balance for that)...but I'm aiming to have all classes roughly on the same power level at each cap (in other words, I know it won't be perfect but it'll still be a lot better than default).

 

However, this raises a new problem: while a character built for level 20 may look different than a character eventually built for 40 that's currently 20, they are roughly the same in many cases (some multi-classing stuff inside).  But a character built for 25 and a character built for 40 that's currently 25 would be different in many cases.  For example, for a 40 Fighter I'm looking to usually pick up Great Strength VII, Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Prowess, Armor Skin, Epic Weapon Specialization, and then another six feats that depend upon the world (worst case Epic Toughness VI for 120 more hit points).  At level 25 in such a build I'd have Great Strength II, Epic Weapon Focus, and then Armor Skin/Epic Prowess/Epic Weapon Specialization (whichever is best on the world).

 

However, if the character is built for 25 then I'd pick up Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Prowess, Armor Skin, and then either Great Strength I (if I had an odd strength) or Epic Weapon Specialization (if even strength).  You don't have "time" to pick up the non-Great Strength feats with bonus feats.  People also might want different starting stats (think of how builds differ for level 30 worlds compared to level 40 worlds).

 

Overall, I don't want a situation where people feel "punished" for planning "long term" because they're less powerful prior to max level at each cap (and keep in mind the world would be at the current level cap for probably at least 8-12 months each time).  For stuff like the Fighter feat issue, simply allowing people to delevel and relevel can eliminate most of those issues though it's sitll not ideal.  But for cases where you'd want to literally change your starting stats...that's not something a relevel can fix.  And I don't think having to make a new character every time the level cap increases in effect is a very good situation either.

 

So as you're a fellow interested in this kind of stuff apparently, any thoughts on how to fix/avoid those issues?

 

Why should PWs be any different?  My perspective is a bit biased tho:

1. I don't think DND rules are particularly great, appropriate, or efficient for action RPGs (at least non-tactical ones); plus they're jam packed with useless cruft.
2. I've already created a replacement scripting engine and combat engine (and have already moved to % based / fractional critical hit system and want to move the attack roll to a more WoW/ARPG style.), so I'm quite invested in my belief that alternate rule systems are a good thing for NWN.

3. I truly believe that a wider range of rules and systems would have attracted more players, more builders, and also maybe just people that wanted to cut their teeth on gamedev (and who couldn't care less about DND).   It's kind of moot now, but...

* I.e. One doesn't need to know much more than 'just click on monsters' to get started.  It can be argued that DND fails at that.

 

----

 

As for me and my server:  I feel like it was a mistake for my medium-high magic server to go the 'boost this, boost that' route.  If I had do it all over I would have taken a radical approach:

• d20s? Gone... use percentage based systems.
• A spell/feat/skill isn't valuable?  Delete it.  Maybe repurpose it later after a solid core of useful/fun things have been found...
• Item Properties?  Redo them all from scratch with an eye towards efficient randomization and more varied itemization.
• Spells?  I'd love to drop vancian magic.

 

In theory a PW might be different because people playing NWN might be playing NWN for the default rules (or close to it) and they'll play another game if they want something radically different.  Of course, I haven't found another game with a good toolset that can do something equivalent to PWs in NWN...

 

I completely agree that DnD rules are not great/appropriate/efficient for an action RPG on multiple levels and have a lot of unnecessary bloat that just confuses new players and adds complexity without depth.  That new scripting/combat engine sounds interesting and I'll look into it when I can.  My plan for the attack roll was to basically have the auto-attacks happen but be very little damage compared to the active abilities, but changing it completely would also work!  I also agree that a more flexible base engine that wasn't so tied to just DnD would have helped.  In general, getting into DnD/NWN is quite hard and the initial hurdle turns a lot of people off.

 

Your server is "The Awakening" that has the post 40 levels and the crazy Mithril Weapons if I recall correctly?  I suppose I am in a situation where I "have to do it all over" so to speak so very interesting to hear you say that.  And yes, I very much believe that choosing 10 cool things out of 30 good options is much better than 10 cool things and 20 "bleh" things out of 150 options of varying usefulness.

 

Where the mage strategy limits come into play - I must say NWN offers a very limited sub-set of spells from D&D, at minimum, the expansion of the spell selection can reduce/eliminate this, as can the use of sophisticated AI scripting in NPCs.

 

To some degree, perhaps, but the "core" usually stays the same.  Aka, unless you need to dispel/breach/CC something...spam your best spell until you run out and then repeat.

 

And I'm trying to figure out if I'm thinking about making an ice cream flavor that almost no one playing NWN would like

 

Anyway, to me learning new systems within a familiar game is not onerous, and if introduced a bit at a time it's almost invisible. And those kinds of changes make the game alive for me.

 

Which is another reason I was planning on increasing the level cap over time, so that it wasn't too much to take in all at once.

[MagicalMaster]

Have to continue in a second post...

 

EXCEPT when a module builder assumes that everyone will play that way and surviving the module becomes nigh impossible without those tactics. "Well, this is a level 20 encounter, so the mages will have 5 maximized Flame Arrows, so my boss has to have at least 600 HP...." Then, it's the module-builder's issue for designing to accommodate an uninteresting playstyle.

 

BTW, though I appreciate the point of your example, I think it's more realistic that bosses don't show up alone and that many of them (e.g. intelligent bosses, casters, etc.) will have things set up so that their henchmen stay near and aren't so stupid as to get pulled off one at a time until the boss is alone. They should go where he goes and possibly spawn replacements for any who wander too far from him.)

 

And there are some things I don't prefer to see changed. The underlying combat and spell mechanics of NWN have some serious flaws. But, it becomes difficult to change them without really losing the NWN feel of gameplay.

 

Unfortunately, while the playstyle might be uninteresting it's also extremely effective.  And I'm not being sarcastic here, honest question, how is assuming a mage will use the most effective spells in general different from assuming a fighter will use the best equipment and build his character well in general?  Auto-attack isn't that interesting either, to be fair.

 

Even if the boss has a pack of henchmen...it becomes Firebrand spam until those are dead, then IGMS spam the boss.

 

And yes, it would be losing the default feel of NWN gameplay.  Whether that's worth it is what I'm trying to figure out.

 

Simple answer. Higher Grounds PW. Thats too much. I enjoy action and hack&slash type of modules but the modifications that HG has, especially graphical changes on all abilities are too much for me to accept.

Remind me, what are some examples of those (the graphical changes)?  I played until about level 53 I think before getting fed up with various things I didn't like about the server.

 

Are you more bothered by stuff like the levels past 40 or the alteration to the original stuff?

 

Is there a PW that you'd point to and say "Okay, this is the limit of the change I'd be willing to accept, but past this it's too much?"

 

I really enjoy your scripted boss fights in SotH.  I'm probably not one of the target audience for your changes, as I only play single player, but part of what keeps me playing NWN 1 and 2 is that I know the game mechanics.  I don't have to relearn feats and spells and how stats work.

 

That means I could load SotH, build some Level 40 characters (for the first time) and throw them into battle straight away.  All that said, I'll echo others and say "do what you think will make it enjoyable".  Strength to your arm! 

 

Yeah, Siege of the Heavens was specifically designed so that you didn't need to really learn anything new, the changes were just kind of there and happened.  This did result in the whole IGMS spam into Flame Arrow spam for mages and Firebrand for any AoE, though.

 

And thank you, glad you enjoyed it.  Progress is actually being made on the second half, just more slowly than I'd like!

 

Not to put too fine a point on it ladies and gentlemen.. but you are not playing Neverwinter Nights.

 

You are playing Dungeons & Dragons 3.0 in a computerized format.

 

I recently managed to get a friend into NWN who's play DnD in real life (unlike me).  He basically constantly tells me "This really is NWN, not DnD."  Meaning that so much is different in NWN compared to DnD.  For example: you know how you could wear Full Plate +5 with gloves that have 4 strength and get 13 AC and 4 strength total?  And how you could also wear Full Plate with 4 strength and Bracers of Armor +5 to get 13 AC and 4 strength total?  Doesn't work like that in DnD apparently.

 

When I was telling him about the problem with sword and board vs 2H (basically the shield user gets too much defense with better shields and doesn't lose much damage) he tried to tell me how since he didn't have to buy a shield that he could use that money on being able to get a better weapon or more stats on other gear.  Which isn't how NWN usually works -- you're capped not by gold but by what's available.

 

Etc.  And that's not even getting into the "basic" stuff like how ability bonuses stack in NWN but not in DnD.

 

All of which is very interesting...

 

..but then its not D&D as you correctly note.

 

It sounds a lot like Runequest (??) or perhaps Rolemaster (??)

 

Like...basically any RPG not based on DnD that has been released in the last decade and a half, be it something mostly 4X like Lords of Magic to single player like Dragon Age (2) to MMOs like WoW/TOR/etc to loot pinatas like Diablo/Path of Exile/etc.

 

The top selling games cited on such sites as GOG and to a lesser degree Steam are actually D & D games. Be it Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2, Baldur's Gate and its various iterations, Icewind Dales likewise.

 

I am sure some of the audience to buy and play these games are based upon the developers and their reputation for quality. However I think Skyrim and Diablo also have very good reputations and popularity with their community.

 

I am fairly certain that the D & D reputation is perhaps the strongest point in the buyers "cognitive response". D & D is such a mainstream well known cultural reference. (I mean the guys on Big Bang Theory play D & D not Tunnels and Trolls or Chivalry and Sorcery    ) 

 

Even if newish players are awe stuck by the quirky rules and arcane features of the game... all that needs to be done it to simplify it a bit.

 

I think part of the problem is that there aren't many good RPGs not based on DnD "back in the day."  And I would point out that I what I'm looking at doing is still very different gameplay from Diablo/Skyrim (though the mechanics would probably be somewhat close to Diablo 3).

 

How would you simply the quirky rules and arcane features?  Genuinely curious.

[MrZork]

Unfortunately, while the playstyle might be uninteresting it's also extremely effective.  And I'm not being sarcastic here, honest question, how is assuming a mage will use the most effective spells in general different from assuming a fighter will use the best equipment and build his character well in general?  Auto-attack isn't that interesting either, to be fair.

No argument here. I wasn't saying that repeating a powerful move or combo over and over until the PC wins isn't effective. I am saying that someone who plays that way is either going to have to play modules that are only playable with that (boring, IMO) playstyle, or get used to the idea that they will seldom face challenging fights. From the module-builders perspective, a choice must be made whether to accommodate those players and have a module that may be frustrating to those who want to do something more interesting for them or to ignore the power gamers and design for players who are willing to ease up on teh oober and use that freedom to try something potentially more fun but with less of a guaranteed win every time.

 

BTW, am not saying there is anything wrong with grabbing the biggest guns and blasting away. That can be fun. And, I am not saying that there is anything wrong with modules where the goal is challenging combat for those players. I am just saying that I haven't yet come across a module that consistently accommodates both playstyles well. Since it was the discussion involving casters that caught my attention, I will say that I play casters largely because I like the options they have open to them. Almost all of my mages have several IGMS castings ready on the books, for example. But, most of the time, a good many of those are unused each time he gets ready to rest.

[Shadooow]

Remind me, what are some examples of those (the graphical changes)?  I played until about level 53 I think before getting fed up with various things I didn't like about the server.

 

Are you more bothered by stuff like the levels past 40 or the alteration to the original stuff?

 

Is there a PW that you'd point to and say "Okay, this is the limit of the change I'd be willing to accept, but past this it's too much?"

1) The graphical effects like firework after you kill boss. -> even I like hack&slash this is too out of character even for me and I feel it does not fit this game at all

2) Altered graphical effects of basically all spells. -> These new effects are ugly and im not used to them and i dont even want to get used to them.

3) Too many subraces. -> not so big issue on this PW because most are restricted, however, when you can play something that adds +8 total stats, whats the point of playing human then?

4) Too many spell, skill, feat, class changes that doesnt make a sense. -> I know parry is useless and its tempting to give it a purpose but the mechanics HG uses like reduction of critical hit damage or what was that doesnt fit DnD at all. Almost all their changes are way off DnD ruleset and thats what I dont like at all.

5) point 4 together with their Quasiclasses which is some kind of prestige class but automatic so it doesnt need hak packs. This together makes creating a character build absolutely impossible. So many changes that you actually end up with confusion what to play and what to take. Every choice seems to be good, too many choices.

 

Levels beyond 40 are cool concept and one of the best features this server has. Thats not a problem for me at all, dungeon design is also fine, number of areas, dungeons all great, but the ruleset modifications they have doesnt attract me at all.

 

Which PW is okay? Bastions of War, Antiworld, even the old Dungeon Eternal X was still fine (talking about few years back version, could be different now), their changes made sense, it was well documented, it was balanced it wasnt too much.

[leo_x]

In theory a PW might be different because people playing NWN might be playing NWN for the default rules (or close to it) and they'll play another game if they want something radically different.  Of course, I haven't found another game with a good toolset that can do something equivalent to PWs in NWN...

 

Now that Unreal4, Unity5, and Source2 (someday) engines are essentially free for hobbyists, maybe a NWN like community might be able to form around them.  I don't see a successor being tied to a particular game, but maybe.

 

Your server is "The Awakening" that has the post 40 levels and the crazy Mithril Weapons if I recall correctly?  I suppose I am in a situation where I "have to do it all over" so to speak so very interesting to hear you say that.  And yes, I very much believe that choosing 10 cool things out of 30 good options is much better than 10 cool things and 20 "bleh" things out of 150 options of varying usefulness.

 

That's right... It's funny mithrils really speak to how hard it can be to extract bad ideas from a server without player revolts, or server wipes.  That's also the reason I'm now personally against the 'Higher Ground'* approach to things.  I like your idea of a rising level cap, since each time you increase there will be an impetus to rebuild characters anyway, giving you much more freedom.

 

* No knock to them, it seems a bit weird to see people in this thread be a bit dismissive of the most popular action server.

 

[Jfoxtail]

1) I recently managed to get a friend into NWN who's play DnD in real life (unlike me).  He basically constantly tells me "This really is NWN, not DnD."  Meaning that so much is different in NWN compared to DnD.  For example: you know how you could wear Full Plate +5 with gloves that have 4 strength and get 13 AC and 4 strength total?  And how you could also wear Full Plate with 4 strength and Bracers of Armor +5 to get 13 AC and 4 strength total?  Doesn't work like that in DnD apparently.

 

When I was telling him about the problem with sword and board vs 2H (basically the shield user gets too much defense with better shields and doesn't lose much damage) he tried to tell me how since he didn't have to buy a shield that he could use that money on being able to get a better weapon or more stats on other gear.  Which isn't how NWN usually works -- you're capped not by gold but by what's available.

 

Etc.  And that's not even getting into the "basic" stuff like how ability bonuses stack in NWN but not in DnD.

 

----

 

2)  How would you simply the quirky rules and arcane features?  Genuinely curious.

 

1) Interesting perspective (your friend's that is) ~ I opine the opposite. I guess that's D&D

 

Without "deep diving into" things such as the specific "dex bonus, armor ac bonus, dodge ac, etc"  for any and every  given character in every situation I would opine "that is how D&D works" albeit the "computerized game engine" will never be a perfect fit for all situations. Limited or unlimited stacking is simply a "design flaw" or "compromise for a digital engine". 

 

D & D in PnP is also subject to DM interpretation of the rules for a given situation. DMs from time to time make arbitrary or good decisions, fair or unfair...it has always been that way.

 

D&D was meant to be a fast paced game without endless sub-tables. I have a hard time envisioning an engine that "applies bracer defense to quarterstaff melee attacks but not snakes on the ground attack".

 

In fact the entire concept of Hit Points was fundamentally flawed according to some realists; but hit points (4 for a Mage at 1st level) was never about your health. It was always about a "proxy" for near misses, nicks, bruises, actual hits and bleeding. 

 

In a sense for all the "perfect and imperfect" implementation of rules mentioned  (Circle Kick ?? Read that part again) - at its very heart it is D & D..

 

It is familiar , it roll a d20, it is an epic fail on 1, it is about spell slots, it is about all those creatures in the Monster Manual, it is about all those weird and wonderful spells some of which are practically useless. It is also about Faerun and the Lore of someone named MELF developing a spell for an acid arrow. It is about the flawed concept of Hit points which is originally a war miniatures concept that impacted unit strength (vis a vis Chainmail). It is about "derived statistics" called Will Reflex and Fortitude.. not actual saves against your capability for dex, wis, int, or con.

 

If your friend says this is NOT D&D I am not sure what and how he/she plays. Clearly differently than me.

 

2) You ask how I would simplify it ??

 

Simply I wouldn't and that was the entire point of my post. 

 

Do what you want for you. Enjoy and love it.

 

But understand the "primary audience" want to play D&D. 

 

D&D in Faerun (or Grayhawk, Mystra) with spell slots and hit points and Melf Acid Arrows and derived statistics and all the creatures in the Monster Manual and fails on a 1 etc etc etc 

 

If you spend thousand of hours customizing and developing something better all the power in the world to all of you.

 

Just be aware that a customized game in the NWN engine may not be D & D. The further away you stray from D & D the less likely you are to have people join in and love what you created.

 

I mean people bought a Dungeon and Dragons game. So if they end up with HARN, or MERP, or Rolemaster, or Chivalry and Sorcery or Tunnels and Trolls or Runequest... well understand they may not be willing to invest the time to go through the learning curve and appreciate what you have ....

 

I think its obvious.

 

(At one time I had hard cover editions of all those rule sets. Many were in various ways superior to D & D at that time. Many also had their own fundamental flaws)

[Terrorble]

The first purchase I ever made with money I earned from my paper route was a 2nd edition Player's Handbook.  I enloyed D & D and was attracted to NWN because of it.  But I do not feel that NWN needs to stay true to D & D rules for me to like it.

 

As much as I luv NWN, it has a lot of spells, feats, skills, systems, and things that builders have done that drive me crazy and cramped my play options.  If I could not change things thru building and scripting, my frustration with these things would have exceeded my desire to play long ago.

 

 

 

Some examples, if you're interested:

 

over use of immunities:  KD immune, crit immune, freedom, death immune, impossibly high saves and AC, perma-true seeing, mind immune,  ...  The scenario I dislike most is when I have a well built character that is rendered entirely useless against most top-tier content because of this.  I feel a smart boss setting with NPCs that compliment each other allow the player to play and the builder to keep it challenging.

 

devestating critical:  because it's often so good, all melees must gravitate toward it.  This then requires that half the NPCs in the game be crit immune or have artificially high fort saves.  Which then ruins rogues and the point of DevCrit and anything that requires a fort save so you might as well disable it if you can't change it.

 

two-handed and double weapons:  I like 2-handers and double weapons, but I found too often they are third-rate options to a sword and shield.  You can do a lot thru building to ensure the gap between sword/shield & 2handers/double weapons is minimized. (e.g. tame shield enchantments, larger weapons get larger bonuses)

 

spells!:  There are so many that are nearly useless; that you'd never choose over another in its level or it's far better to use a lower spell stilled, empowered and maxed than consider it.  I'm all for mods to give life to the weak options.

 

death magic:  like DevCrit, either you have to turn off auto-fail on 1, or just make everything immune.  I made a system where it deals damage: the spell's base damage modified based on hit dice difference, immunity, and the actual difference between what the save DC and what was rolled.  Frankly, I like it, but it's quite a departure from NWN.

 

There's more of course.

[Grani]

I agree. You can't have a balanced environment if you want to avoid making changes to the original rules of NWN. These are simply totally imbalanced in so many ways.

 

So, it's a choice between leaving everything familiar to players or having a game in which every class, skill, feat, or spell is useful at least to some extent.

 

I, personally, prefer the latter. That's why I modify every rule that, I think, makes something overpowered or underpowered. And then I test it for a long time to see if my change actually brought some balance to the game.

 

I currently have 28 feats modified, 24 spells modified, 11 classes modified in some way and many other changes made that can't be included in a specific cattegory. Some changes were made for balance, some were more aesthetic ones, some were meant to add further functionality to classes/skills/spells.

 

My changes range from small, such as renaming Champion of Torm to a more general Divine Champion, through medium ones, such as having a missile storm deal cumulated damage as a single hit (which prevents low magic resist from absorbing the spell completely) to big ones, such as making other Dragon Disciple variants possible with different elemental breaths and immunities (ok, not actually a balance change, but still, DDs deserved other colors; as for DD balance changes, an example might be empowering their breaths, which I did, and making them usable thrice per day).

 

Every change is well-documented, though, both in a custom tlk file to update descriptions of modified bits and in a separate file that contains a list of all changes.

 

All in all, an original rules' supporter would probably not even look at my module.

[Gruftlord]

In response to your questions: yes, i think the HG community is a big enough one for my tastes (they do have a wiki, right?). I even thought the amount of information you could get for the aielund and the enhanced magic system it uses were enough to get me in interested.

But on the other hand HG itself never interested me. The core NWN is simply too unbalanced for an action rp play style in my oppinion. I can live with the rules system in an adventure/rp and story focussed context (modules and pws), and appreciate balancing adjustments. But the idea to adjust it to a point where it becomes balanced from an ARPG pov never seemed convincing to me (for me arpg require a higher level of mechanical polish to be enjoyable. Because ultimatelly, this is all they have to offer). If i want action rpg, there were enough AAA releases during the last decade, that seem better suited for my time in my oppinion.

 

Tl,dr: i play on RPG PWs mostly, my get to place nowadays is forgotten realms comyr (low magic, no immunities, shortened buff durations, rest restrictions). In my oppinion: less is more, if you want to give nwn better playability (or want to cater to what i am looking for).

[kalbaern]

Tl,dr: i play on RPG PWs mostly, my get to place nowadays is forgotten realms comyr (low magic, no immunities, shortened buff durations, rest restrictions). In my oppinion: less is more, if you want to give nwn better playability (or want to cater to what i am looking for).

Here's an example I can speak to as someone who spent 3 years contributing and another 2 years as there lead builder/scripter. While this PW has few (not "no immunities", although just a few minor ones can be found) and modified spell durations and other things, folks need to keep in mind how fast time or even slow time passes IG also has a significant impact on the game that can require duration changes.

 

Example: In the OC, a potion of Bark Skin only lasts 6 minutes in RL time, since game time passes at a rate of 1 hour per 2 minutes in real life. So the Bark Skin potion, and most other buffs with a 3 hour hour duration are often only good for a Boss fight or taken just before one. In other modules and PWs, time often passes much slower. On your example of "FRC", the rate is 1 hour IG equals 10 minutes in RL. The same default 3 hour bottle buffs therefore last a full 30 minutes IG there. Because you can travel farther, spawn and kill a lot more foes, generally "buffs" are actually improved simply due to their RL extended durations. This in and of itself can lead to all sorts of balancing issues. Each "fix" creates its own issues just as often.

 

Some might wonder why you'd even change how fast time passes IG to begin with. On an RP server, the answer is pretty simple. When folks gather around and RP, it takes time, real time. You type your comments or emotes and other counter or react to them in near endless loops. Waiting for folks to respond, waiting to respond to them, consumes a good deal of RL time. Having three days pass while RPing for a couple of hours seems silly to many. Extending the passage of IG time also allows DMs to run day/night specific events without clock forcing/bumping or other things which can affect buffs IG.

 

On FRC, things like most ability, protection buffs were left alone duration wise, but weapon buffs were shortened to better match their OC effect, despite the slower time passage.