108 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

Given how poorly morality was handled in the game, it hardly even matters.

 

*snickers*

[phaonica]

I agree. I think the Inquisition has far too much power to keep around.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

Oh no.

 

People thinking and coming to a conclusion.

 

What an unimaginable atrocity.

 

We can't have that.

 

Cassandra also states that just because she believes it's right that doesn't mean it's right.

[brownie56]

I thought about it when I put it in a real world scenario. If I were a Tevinter or Qunari, the Inquisition is like ISIS (DO NOT JUMP ON ME I'LL EXPLAIN). They didn't go around beheading people (maybe Leliana did, who knows), but look at it in barest political terms. Devout members of a particular faith see that their religious principles aren't being carried out and bogged down by politics, so they break away, create a militarized faction and potentially allow the ASSASSINATION OF A HEAD OF STATE. Then force nations to follow their lead of face "consequences". Honestly, Corypheus showing up was probably good for the Inquisition, picture how ugly things would have been if the Conclave had just failed on its own and Leliana and Cassandra had been running the show...

[Texhnolyze101]

I agree. I think the Inquisition has far too much power to keep around.

 

The same could be said about the chantry.

[Dorrieb]

Oh no.

 

People thinking and coming to a conclusion.

 

What an unimaginable atrocity.

 

We can't have that.

 

Thinking, coming to a conclusion, and then imposing that conclusion on everyone else. No, I don't think we can have that.

[ComedicSociopathy]

It's really telling that a religious autocrat is Thedas' only hope and most competent authority.  

[brownie56]

It's really telling that a religious autocrat is Thedas' only hope and most competent authority.  

No matter how many times you said "I'm not the Herald, Maker's not real" the Inquisition could never shake their fundamental religious purpose. Idle hands are the devil's play things, and one of those hands can tear open inter-dimensional portals...

[ComedicSociopathy]

Thinking, coming to a conclusion, and then imposing that conclusion on everyone else. No, I don't think we can have that.

 

Isn't that essentially how leadership in Thedas works?

 

Calling them a king, queen, archon, empress, emperor, divine or inquisitor, they all have a autocratic power that is only barely kept in check. Hell, the Inquisition existing as Thedas' fantasy equivalent to the United Nations that 'deals' dangerously destructive rulers just might justify its continued existence. 

[BabyPuncher]

Thinking, coming to a conclusion, and then imposing that conclusion on everyone else. No, I don't think we can have that.

 

That's how authority works.

 

That's how every state that exists, has ever existed, or will ever exist works.

 

It's something you need and depend on. Someone tries to rob you, do you think "Gee, who am I to decide that stealing is wrong? Who am I to impose my beliefs on this other person?"

 

No, you don't.

 

You're generally safe from that largely because an authority says "Stealing is wrong. Do it, and we will hurt you. We don't care if you think it's okay or not."

[ComedicSociopathy]

No matter how many times you said "I'm not the Herald, Maker's not real" the Inquisition could never shake their fundamental religious purpose. Idle hands are the devil's play things, and one of those hands can tear open inter-dimensional portals...

 

True that. No matter what you say or do even Varric and Sera, possibly the most cynical members of the Inner Circle, will believe that you're the Herald. The rest of ignorant Thedas will follow that example. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

That's how authority works.

 

That's how every state that exists, has ever existed, or will ever exist works.

 

It's something you need and depend on. Someone tries to rob you, do you think "Gee, who am I to decide that stealing and is really wrong? Who am I to impose my beliefs on him?"

 

No, you don't.

 

You're generally safe from that largely because an authority says "Stealing is wrong. Do it, and will will hurt you."

 

Agreed. Moral relativism really doesn't work outside the world of philosophy. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

So, I've just finished my second playthrough, and I'm having serious misgivings about this Inquisition business. I get that Corphy has to be stopped and the Inquisition are the only ones doing anything about it, so as far as that goes it is necessary, but it isn't stopping there. Cassandra and Leliana were already planning to create it even before any of this happened, and the plan was always to gather power and 'make things right', which implies deciding what is right, with an 'or else' thrown in there. Doesn't that sound like a spectacularly bad thing? It doesn't comfort me that they're both fanatics with a tendency to hit first and ask questions later in a soundproof room under a harsh light.

The original plan had Divine Justinia alive, a woman whom everyone respected. Even the Mages and Templars agreed to put the war on hold and attend the peace talks she offered. So the Inquisition would have folowed Justinia's command, just like it does yours.

 

As Inquisitor I'm not sure how much control I have over the thing. I seem to have attracted a large cult who insist that I'm the Herald of Andraste no matter how many times I keep telling them there is no such thing. I also seem to end up involved in a lot that I don't approve of using methods I don't agree with, especially if I send out Leliana. Her solution to everything is 'do a murder'. Someone suspected of treason? Do a murder. Some people disagree with us? Do a murder. The kitchen needs more veggies? Do a murder.

You have complete control. You are the head of the organization. If someone suggests methods you don't approve, don't do it.

 

I'm also uncertain about some of the people that we fight, like the Freemen of the Dales. I'm not sure why they attacked refugees instead of joining forces with them, but other than that I'd actually quite like their little revolution to succeed. When they shout 'No nobles! No crown! No Inquisition!'... yeah, that's something I could agree with. Instead I ended up fighting them on behalf of... an absolute monarch? Because we need her support, apparently, but I dunno. It doesn't sound very moral.

The Freemen of the Dales were allies with the Red Templars. They create enough chaos that the Red Templars' mining operations go unnoticed, and in exchange they were promised the Dales when Corypheus conquered Thedas. You support people killing your people? Regardles, don't do it for Orlais or the Inquisition. Do it for the innocent people getting captured and/or killed by them.

 

Or the grey wardens. I appreciate that they've gone crazy and it has to be done, but do my troops have to be so keen about it? For a moment there in that cutscene they seem just as fanatical as the batty wardens inside, if not more so.

How did they seem keen on it? Plus they are fighting to stop a demon army from arising. You would put your all, or 'fanatical' as you call it, into trying to save the world from darkness.

 

And there's Samson. He actually makes some pretty good points when you sit in judgement on him. The Chantry did screw him and the other templars over, with the tacit complicity of everyone else. I actually think Cullen hates him so much because Samson is not all that different from what he could have been.

Still doesn't even come remotely close to excusing his actions.

 

Anyway, my point is that just because we opposed the baddie doesn't necessarily make us the goodies. Could we actually be baddies?

 

It's like these two guys: https://youtu.be/hn1VxaMEjRU

From a certain point of view, absolutely. I'm sure those followong Corypheus saw us as baddies.

[Xilizhra]

This is one of my bones to pick with the game. There's not enough of people calling you out for how dangerous a precedent you're setting, no matter your intentions. The game is specifically structured in a way that makes the "naysayers" seem like simply douchebag obstructive bureaucrats that are getting in the way of your oh so pure mission.

 

This is not helped by the heaps of praise the Inquisitor receives, the worship and adoration they receive, or the fact that they get carte blanche run of things (this has been a running concept with Bioware games, but Inquisition took the cake). 

 

That is quite literally and realistically one of the worst things that could happen, from a power structure perspective. And it's why I'm critical of Inquisition and, moreover, Bioware. Because if Bioware had actually considered these things, they would've actually thrown in more comments at least where we're shown in a negative light for very valid reasons. 

 

That Bioware didn't realize this is why I say they have no sense of vision any more. And it's why I think they need some new blood.

 

It's bad for the Inquisition to have such high authority on things like the crown, or lands, or whatever. Just as it was for the Warden in Origins. That we had a goal makes it understandable, but still sets a bad precedent (which is probably why the FW is so happy with Amaranthine, even though I've been thinking that has the potential to backfire considerably before the next Blight).

 

We can kick the Avvar out of Fereldan lands. Chief Movran the Under and his clan can be driven out of the Fallow Mire, with us claiming those lands as being "ours". They are most assuredly not as the scouting mission to gain access said we should contact the local bann. The Fallow Mire is part of Ferelden and thus under its jurisdiction.

 

That's just one example. Literally every case of "They're badmouthing us" is treated as "They're just getting in the way" if not "They're allied with Corypheus!!".

 

I love my Cadash's story, but the fact I have to rewrite 85% of Inquisition to be content with it really bothers me.

I might be concerned about this, were it not for the fact that all of Thedas' systems of government are terrible. The Inquisition is a powerful NGO that can check the powers of monarchs, and the universal adulation that the Inquisitor gets is likely impossible to transfer, because "Herald of Andraste" doesn't seem like something that can be passed on.

 

 

Well, no. They were manipulated by them, but they had their own agenda and it wasn't a bad one. No nobles, no crown, no Inquisition! Up the revolution! So sad...

The Freemen are deeply corrupt and utterly unscrupulous. They're basically terrorists, no better than the renegade apostates and templars in the Hinterlands. And all that is before they decided to join forces with the red templars, up to the point of helping them capture slaves for the red lyrium farms in the Emprise du Lion.

[ComedicSociopathy]

I might be concerned about this, were it not for the fact that all of Thedas' systems of government are terrible. The Inquisition is a powerful NGO that can check the powers of monarchs, and the universal adulation that the Inquisitor gets is likely impossible to transfer, because "Herald of Andraste" doesn't seem like something that can be passed on.

 

Good God, Thedas really does suck doesn't it. A nobody fake messiah leading a bunch of misinformed religious zealots is the best anyone can hope for. Even Westeros has it better then Thedas. 

[BabyPuncher]

Good God, Thedas really does suck doesn't it. A nobody fake messiah leading a bunch of misinformed religious zealots is the best anyone can hope for. Even Westeros has it better then Thedas. 

 

If these settings didn't suck, they wouldn't have an opportunity for the hero to come in and save things by the skin of their teeth.

[phaonica]

The same could be said about the chantry.

 

Well, yes. FWIW, I think the chantry doesn't need to go away entirely, but it could stand to have some of it's power removed

[Texhnolyze101]

Well, yes. FWIW, I think the chantry doesn't need to go away entirely, but it could stand to have some of it's power removed

 

This I can agree with.

[ComedicSociopathy]

If these settings didn't suck, they wouldn't have an opportunity for the hero to come in and save things by the skin of their teeth.

 

Yes, but the problem is that regardless of your actions both those settings still suck. They just suck slightly less. For now anyway. 

[BabyPuncher]

Yes, but the problem is that regardless of your actions both those settings still suck. They just suck slightly less. For now anyway. 

 

That's true. It's mostly because the story has to have another conflict for the next game to tackle.

[BioWareM0d13]

Well, no. They were manipulated by them, but they had their own agenda and it wasn't a bad one. No nobles, no crown, no Inquisition! Up the revolution! So sad...

 

Had they succeeded they would have just ended up with something that wasn't all that different anyway. Even if they founded a Republic or a Democracy, it would probably look something more like the ancient Roman Republic or Athenian democracy than anything resembling a modern democratic state. The most influential citizens would become oligarchs and the new nobility, even if their society had ditched hereditary titles.

 

The king is dead. Long live the king!

[Dean_the_Young]

If these settings didn't suck, they wouldn't have an opportunity for the hero to come in and save things by the skin of their teeth.

 

Which begs the meta-morality question of if the entire Bioware market is full of people who get off on other people's suffering so that we can indulge in power fantasies of having those wretches be properly grateful for our salvation (from suffering they wouldn't endure if not to amuse us).

[Dorrieb]

That's how authority works.

 

That's how every state that exists, has ever existed, or will ever exist works.

 

It's something you need and depend on. Someone tries to rob you, do you think "Gee, who am I to decide that stealing is wrong? Who am I to impose my beliefs on this other person?"

 

No, you don't.

 

You're generally safe from that largely because an authority says "Stealing is wrong. Do it, and we will hurt you. We don't care if you think it's okay or not."

 

No, we are safe from that because we, as a society, have decided that stealing is wrong, and have instituted measures to prevent it, including a system of justice and a police force who answer to the will of the people, not the other way around, unless you happen to be a member of the Stasi.

 

But fine, you like authority and you disagree with me. If I were really the Inquisitor, I could make you agree with me... or else. How would you like that?

[BabyPuncher]

The 'will of the people' is still an imposed, authoritarian will. It's still a will that doesn't request respect from the individual - it demands it. All laws demand compliance, regardless of weather they're democratically created or not. And it's always a demand that is ultimately backed up by violence, or it isn't a law at all. Just a request.

 

I wouldn't say I like or dislike it. But it's an absolutely necessity of society.