108 réponses à ce sujet

[ctd757]

I thought it was stated by Giselle the Inqusition put their swords down. I feel like it's going to be a choice to do that. Thedas needs this group.

[Bad King]

Yeah, before release Roderick was compared to Udina.

 

Having a few Udinas here and there isn't a bad thing, but having solely Udinas means that what makes the narrative best just gets thrown out the window

 

The thing is, I didn't have a problem with Udina before ME2 & ME3. In the first game he was a protagonist with an obnoxious personality but in later instalments they turned him into an antagonist which I believe was a mistake. Similarly, Roderick was largely an antagonist for the first part of the game and only turned 'good' when he accepted the Inquisition as his lord and saviour. All of this considered, it would be nice if BW had more characters that took a strong stance against the player character or his/her organisation without demonising them or turning them into antagonists.

[Sah291]

And tell me, where in the game are we called out that such actions are bad to do? Where in the game is it pointed out that us performing such actions would create more harm for the Inquisition then good?
 
The answer: nowhere. The game rewards you for these course of action, no matter how devious a route you take, and they're never addressed in-game. These things should weaken our position and the Inquisition as a whole, but no matter what the Inquisition is seen in a better light and given more power.
 
No matter what you do, no matter how you abuse your authority, the game doesn't call you out on it and how you're only making things worse and makes it still seem like what you're doing is the best thing out there and it's part of your holy calling.
 
Doesn't help that we actually veer almost into... I wouldn't say God Mode per se but that's the closest thing I can think of, but that sort of territory by being so competent no one stands a chance against us. There's very little struggle in the game itself.
 

 
She actually approves of you using Cullen to threaten the Grand Cleric, or having Leliana silence her, on top of having Josephine deal with her diplomatically.
 
It even gives you an amulet of power for her on top of the approval boost, in Cullen's route.

Well to be fair, Bioware, at least in the dragon age series, has never really been one to lay it all out thick like that. It's always been a bit more subtle and ambiguous than that (or they have tried to be). Abusing your power in subtle ways may be rewarded, is not necessarily obvious, and you are kind of meant to figure out on your own whether you think it is moral or not. That's the difference between good writing and plain old propaganda. One can be open to interpretation and is intended to make you think, and the other is intended to do the opposite and just tells you what lesson you are meant to take away. But these themes about power are definitely present in the story.

For example I think that Cory is meant to mirror the Inquisitor. You are both prophets, in a sense, each leading a movement. It's never really laid out explicitly, but it's implied Cory sees you as a rival for the throne in the black city. So yeah, the idea of being a "god" is meant to go to your head a little bit, and make you think about that potentiality. Or maybe you are too humble to want to wield any power at all. Solas warns the Quizzy about that too after the Well, about the dangers of sharing your power and trusting groups to excerise power for you.

[Bunny]

The temptation to abuse one's power as the Inquisitor lets you participate in a long and glorious tradition. Mages, templars, wardens, ancient darkspawn, old gods... You're a powerful protagonist offered the same hubris and self-delusion you're meant to be fighting.

[Gervaise]

Let's face it every authority in Thedas is corrupt and believe they have a right impose their will on others whether it is by birth, Orlais and Tevinter, or religion, Chantry and the Qun.    Back in Kirkwall the city guard were pretty incompetent at keeping order or just not worried about some of the crimes being perpetrated by their own; those elven brothers took the law into their own hands because Aveline didn't bother to thoroughly investigate the rumour about her soldier raping an elf girl.   In fact rape is something that is not treated very seriously at all in Thedas, certainly if committed by a human on an elf.

 

So even if they screw over my Inquisitor in the next game, this one I fully embraced the idea that I could impose my ideas on people.    Initially I fought against being a religious icon but latest run I thought, what the hell, and took the option that establishes my belief.   If as an elf I'm wanting to improve the situation for my people, I might as well use every trick at my disposal.   (Since I'm not really a religious fanatic but just pretending to be one - my Dalish is really agnostic about the Maker and has rejected his own gods).    I'm not going to give up the power now Corypheus is gone in case people undo all my previous efforts, including putting a puppet emperor on the throne of Orlais - the epilogue quite clearly states the only reason the empire remains at peace is because they fear me and respect the Inquisition.    Actually I've been pretty merciful on the whole; Cullen seemed really ticked off that I didn't do something horrible to Sampson.     And I really wanted to come clean and tell the truth about Andraste/Justiinia after we were in the Fade but Mother Giselle was all for hushing it up.  I loved being able to counter Corypheus' claiming to be our new god in place of the non existent Maker with "I'm the Maker's Chosen".    I got an inspired Leliana as Divine so we're talking our way to a better future apparently with the Chantry actually taking the moral teaching of the Chant of Light seriously for once.     I do view my Inquisition as a sort of United Nations Peace Force who in particular stand up for the little people who have no power themselves.     So do I worry about the Inquisition?  Not while my Inquisitor is in control and given how much everyone seems to rely on me for guidance and leadership, it will probably fall apart when I'm gone.

[brownie56]

Would it be fair to assume that a lot of the volunteers of the Inquisition went home after? None of the endings seem to imply that they do. 

[drummerchick]

Would it be fair to assume that a lot of the volunteers of the Inquisition went home after? None of the endings seem to imply that they do. 

I remember hearing dialogue that some people have requested to return home. Can't remember with whom, but it was post-ending. 

[Raylis]

I think of the Inquisition as a balance of power of the chantry. If you disband the Inquisition, then the chantry gains full power again which will likely lead to oppressive templars in mage circle prisons and abuse of templar addiction, etc., once again. The chantry should NOT have a religious/political monopoly. And hopefully after everything calms down and the chantry gets its templars/mages back, they will keep the inquisition from going crazy as well, so it all works out.

[Qun00]

There are strong reasons to be worried, in theory.

But truth is, the Inquisition is in very good hands.

Cassandra, Josephine, Cullen, Leliana and the Inquisitor (potentially) are all trustworthy people.

They won't corrupt its purpose.

But 70 years from now, when the Inner Circle is entirely replaced?

Then it could be a problem.

[Dorrieb]

There are strong reasons to be worried, in theory.

But truth is, the Inquisition is in very good hands.

Cassandra, Josephine, Cullen, Leliana and the Inquisitor (potentially) are all trustworthy people.

They won't corrupt its purpose.

But 70 years from now, when the Inner Circle is entirely replaced?

Then it could be a problem.

 

See, in my opinion Cassandra, Cullen, and Leliana are the kind of people for whom the ends justify the means if they believe the cause to be just, and they are fanatical believers in their Cause. Leliana especially often wants to fulfill missions through intimidation, blackmail, or murder, not even of enemies, but just people who happen to be in the way. Cullen thinks that martial law is an excellent idea. And the first time we met Cassandra she had picked up Varric gestapo-style for interrogation.

 

(It's even worse because apparently what she wanted was to offer Hawke the position of Inquisitor. She could've said, 'Hi, Varric. We have a big job and we'd like to offer it to your friend, Hawke, so if you could please put us in contact or get word back to her, that would be grand. Okay?' Instead she went straight to 'Ve haff vays to make you talk!' because apparently that's her first go-to option, never mind that kidnapping and beating up her friends was maybe not the best way to win Hawke over.)

 

The only one of the advisors for whom the end does not justify the means is Josephine, which might balance things out, but Josephine tends to always side with Authority.

 

And the Inquisitor, well, you're the leader of a cult. Whether you're happy with that or you're terrified and wondering 'How the hell did I get here and how do i get out of it?' is up to your Inquisitor, but it's still a cult. A fanatical cult with power rivaling nations. Even with good intentions, or especially with good intentions, I find that scary.

[Dorrieb]

I still don't see what the problem is with the Inquisition possibly having the creeping potential to exercise its powers too harshly, when every single other office of authority in Thedas already does that. I mean, the Inquisition still isn't guaranteed to, and even if it does, it won't be comparatively worse.

 

Well... the main difference is, we did it. Our characters have joined and sided with the powers that be.

 

And the second difference is that the Inquisition's power is based on their cultists' fanatical worship of the Inquisitor herself. I'm not sure whether that's worse, but it makes me very uncomfortable.

[Xilizhra]

Well... the main difference is, we did it. Our characters have joined and sided with the powers that be.

 

And the second difference is that the Inquisition's power is based on their cultists' fanatical worship of the Inquisitor herself. I'm not sure whether that's worse, but it makes me very uncomfortable.

It's not just based on that; I find it unlikely that everyone in the Inquisition actually considers the Inquisitor to be divine. It's based on genuine skill, as well as a fair bit of luck.

 

Also, assuming the Divine choice was played well, it's more like we made the powers that be side with us.

[Dorrieb]

It's not just based on that; I find it unlikely that everyone in the Inquisition actually considers the Inquisitor to be divine. It's based on genuine skill, as well as a fair bit of luck.

 

Also, assuming the Divine choice was played well, it's more like we made the powers that be side with us.

 

Then you got a very different vibe from it than I did. Maybe if our soldiers didn't say things like, 'There isn't one of us who wouldn't gladly lay down our lives for you, o Herald of Andraste!' I mean, really? How about, 'let's prevent a catastrophe with a minimum of casualties for the sake of the common good, and not for any one person' instead? And I've already told them that there is no Herald of Andraste.

 

And kind of missing the point there. The Inquisition is the powers that be, or one of them. We get to decide the fate of millions without any of those millions having any say in it.

[Xilizhra]

Then you got a very different vibe from it than I did. Maybe if our soldiers didn't say things like, 'There isn't one of us who wouldn't gladly lay down our lives for you, o Herald of Andraste!' I mean, really? How about, 'let's prevent a catastrophe with a minimum of casualties for the sake of the common good, and not for any one person' instead? And I've already told them that there is no Herald of Andraste.

 

And kind of missing the point there. The Inquisition is the powers that be, or one of them. We get to decide the fate of millions without any of those millions having any say in it.

Well, there are a lot of fanatics, it's true; I just found it implausible that they'd all be fanatics. But yes, I do want to limit casualties as much as possible; I certainly don't want to exploit anyone's faith. But it's better to have faithful people than demoralized people, in my opinion, and since deconverting people isn't likely to be good for anyone, I may as well use it.

[Archerwarden]

I've always thought it was a bad idea in the longterm. Hopefully we'll get the choice to close shop.

I don't think we will. They've headed off the cliff and there's no stopping now.

[Dorrieb]

Well, there are a lot of fanatics, it's true; I just found it implausible that they'd all be fanatics. But yes, I do want to limit casualties as much as possible; I certainly don't want to exploit anyone's faith. But it's better to have faithful people than demoralized people, in my opinion, and since deconverting people isn't likely to be good for anyone, I may as well use it.

 

I get that, and it seems to be what the game is saying too, but I disagree that people without faith lack morale or that the best way to inspire them is by deceiving them. And no, they're not all fanatics. Scout Harding for one seems pretty level-headed.

 

Did you argue about this with Mother Giselle? She has a remarkable way of turning it around so that the 'common' people need to be lied to and it's you who are a snob for not respecting that!

[Xilizhra]

I get that, and it seems to be what the game is saying too, but I disagree that people without faith lack morale or that the best way to inspire them is by deceiving them. And no, they're not all fanatics. Scout Harding for one seems pretty level-headed.

 

Did you argue about this with Mother Giselle? She has a remarkable way of turning it around so that the 'common' people need to be lied to and it's you who are a snob for not respecting that!

It's not that I believe that people without faith lack morale, far from it. It's that I believe that people who have faith having their faith deconstructed by the one they have faith in would probably damage their morale. I don't like it either, but I can stand playing the cards I'm dealt.

[Qun00]

See, in my opinion Cassandra, Cullen, and Leliana are the kind of people for whom the ends justify the means if they believe the cause to be just, and they are fanatical believers in their Cause. Leliana especially often wants to fulfill missions through intimidation, blackmail, or murder, not even of enemies, but just people who happen to be in the way. Cullen thinks that martial law is an excellent idea. And the first time we met Cassandra she had picked up Varric gestapo-style for interrogation.

(It's even worse because apparently what she wanted was to offer Hawke the position of Inquisitor. She could've said, 'Hi, Varric. We have a big job and we'd like to offer it to your friend, Hawke, so if you could please put us in contact or get word back to her, that would be grand. Okay?' Instead she went straight to 'Ve haff vays to make you talk!' because apparently that's her first go-to option, never mind that kidnapping and beating up her friends was maybe not the best way to win Hawke over.)

The only one of the advisors for whom the end does not justify the means is Josephine, which might balance things out, but Josephine tends to always side with Authority.

And the Inquisitor, well, you're the leader of a cult. Whether you're happy with that or you're terrified and wondering 'How the hell did I get here and how do i get out of it?' is up to your Inquisitor, but it's still a cult. A fanatical cult with power rivaling nations. Even with good intentions, or especially with good intentions, I find that scary.

I meant to go into detail with each character, but as I was typing it I couldn't bring myself to finish.

It's one of those things that are so obvious that one feels ridiculous for actually explaining it. But I suppose it's tolerable if I can be brief about it.

Each of the advisors has been shown to question both the system and themselves. And of course, being religious doesn't automatically make anyone a blind and dangerous fanatic.

Leliana though, yeah, she's crazy. Good thing she isn't the leader.

[TEWR]

It's not just based on that; I find it unlikely that everyone in the Inquisition actually considers the Inquisitor to be divine. It's based on genuine skill, as well as a fair bit of luck.

 

Also, assuming the Divine choice was played well, it's more like we made the powers that be side with us.

 

Divine? No. The Hand of Divinity? Yes.

 

These are people who believe you're the agent of God, ordained as such by his previously favored messenger. 

 

That is dangerous.

 

Well, there are a lot of fanatics, it's true; I just found it implausible that they'd all be fanatics. But yes, I do want to limit casualties as much as possible; I certainly don't want to exploit anyone's faith. But it's better to have faithful people than demoralized people, in my opinion, and since deconverting people isn't likely to be good for anyone, I may as well use it.

 

You can empower peoples' faith and still have them have good/high morale, without having them blindly follow you like a bunch of fanatics.

[jedidotflow]

People are forgetting that Thedas is a place where authority comes from might and heredity. Were you really expecting the Inquisition to start the first democratic state? 

 

As to why you're not challenged with regards to the power you're acquiring, it's because all that power is a means to an end: Destroying Corpyfish.

This is not a political simulator; it's a political power fantasy.

[DanteYoda]

The Inquisition is as bad as you make it, which was precisely the point.

I disagree...

 

For me the inquisition was thrust on me because i was at the wrong time and place, i popped out of the fade and i'm the herald of Andraste, i repeatedly tell them i'm not, everyone still forces me to be some savior i'm obviously not.

 

I follow the quests because i have this green thing on my hand and i cannot get away due to the story choices, i choose the best things that suit my character but every time i'm thrust into the religious limelight over and over..

 

My companions all think of me as a savior and god gift to Thedas, and nothing i can do to stop Leliana from going evil and running the chantry (even after repeatedly saying it should be disbanded to all the Divine choices), Nothing i really did changed the games story line..

 

Corphy dies and i'm still the herald of Andraste...

[Dorrieb]

I meant to go into detail with each character, but as I was typing it I couldn't bring myself to finish.

It's one of those things that are so obvious that one feels ridiculous for actually explaining it. But I suppose it's tolerable if I can be brief about it.

Each of the advisors has been shown to question both the system and themselves. And of course, being religious doesn't automatically make anyone a blind and dangerous fanatic.

Leliana though, yeah, she's crazy. Good thing she isn't the leader.

 

Awfully sorry to have put you through such a trying ordeal, I'm glad that you could find it at least tolerable in its brevity, but honestly, why should such a sensible person as yourself be subjected to explaining anything at all to thickies like me, when it causes you distress? I appreciate the effort, but please, don't wear yourself out on my account.

 

I did note that Cassandra and Cullen had their moments of self-doubt, but I did not see that it changed them. If anything it reinforced their Crusader way of thinking. Their problem with the Seekers, the Templars, and the Chantry was that they lacked integrity, not that they existed at all.