26 réponses à ce sujet

[Anneqo]

Don't know if should I post it here or Characters forum but... here's my question:

My inquisitor (one of many) is an archer and I would like to put Vivienne to her party (because she's KE) but she is just so mean that I want her to shut up. I can't have Blackwall as tank with her because she's so awful to him I can't listen to it.

What companions does she tolerate so I can make a decent party with her?

[robertmarilyn]

I hated hearing her insult Blackwall, even if I do know he's got a rotten past. She doesn't know that and my IQ doesn't know that but she treats him terribly. Sera gets upset by the things Viv says so don't put them together. Iron Bull turns into a spineless wimp with Viv so I don't put them together. 

 

Cole actually holds his own with Viv so I will put them together. Solas will snap back at Viv so he's ok with her. Dorian handles her fine too. Cass is ok with Viv. Varric doesn't let Viv bother him much either. 

 

So no Viv with Blackwall, Sera, and Iron Bull, for me. 

 

Viv is ok with Cole, Solas, Dorian, Cass, and Varric for me. But usually I allow Viv to stand in her attic, wearing ugly clothes and hats, while the rest of us ignore her. 

[Anneqo]

Oh, so it's not so bad. Thank you

[cap and gown]

I personally enjoy the interactions btw Iron Bull and Viv. They always make me smile.

[Forsythia77]

I'd say Iron Bull.  Or Cass. She isn't mean to Iron Bull as much as she teaches him lessons on decorum and etiquette. And he seems to be okay with it - calling her ma'am and whatnot. I'd say you don't really need her in your party if you are not playing on hard or nightmare (but if you are you might just have to put up with her shenanigans).  Because this run I am playing as a 2H warrior and not my usual KE mage.  But I'm also not playing it on nightmare or hard so I don't need her and as soon as I get Dorian she will be swapped out and I'll just have Dorian and Solas as my mages.  I don't like Solas either but at least he isn't an elitist.

[Bigdawg13]

Viv and Dorian are fun.  They both insult each other, but it's crystal clear it bothers neither one of them one bit.  Quite humorous.

 

However, if you don't want to hear Viv insult anyone at all then make sure Cassandra is your tank.  Viv has a lot of respect for Cassandra. 

 

As for a rogue, take anyone other than Sera.  Sera gives as good as she gets but Viv will still be rude to her.  Varric doesn't say much but when he does she insults him.  that leaves Cole.  If you take Cole, Viv will ignore him as best she can.  And from time to time Cole will have insight about her that really unnerves her.  For this reason he's fun to take with Viv.

[Tharkun]

Hmm, I may have to take a party banter playthrough next.  Maybe a Qunari KE with Viv, Cole and Sera as the team.

[Anneqo]

Thanks for all your answers. I've started my first nightmare play (as s&s tank) and I'm planning to take Cass, Vivienne and Cole with me.

[DanteYoda]

If you want full blown war of the companions take Sera and Vivienne..

 

I only did that once lol

[Alan Drifter13]

Thanks for all your answers. I've started my first nightmare play (as s&s tank) and I'm planning to take Cass, Vivienne and Cole with me.

 

That sounds ok for banter, but an S&S inquisitor + Cass + KE Vivienne seems like too much tanking. Also, if you spec Cole as DW rogue, you won't have any ranged characters. If you are an S&S warrior and you bring either Cass or Blackwall with you, you don't need a KE at all. You can just remove Vivienne from the party if you dislike her so much. A party with 2 warriors makes more sense with Solas and Varric/Sera (archer) than with Viv and Cole (DW).

 

Of course, if you spec Cole as an archer and Sera as a DW just swap their names in my sentence 

[Elhanan]

Viv and Solas together is great banter; recommended. Dorian is also a good teammate for her, as he also gives snarky replies as well as she does.

[Arvaarad]

That sounds ok for banter, but an S&S inquisitor + Cass + KE Vivienne seems like too much tanking.

Yeah, I could respect choosing that team for roleplay reasons, but 2 warriors and a KE would make things really difficult, combat-wise.

It's a little metagamey to say this, but game devs know that people have a natural tendency to play more defensively at higher difficulties (and to become more defensive with each failure). So the best way to scare newcomers is by punishing defensive play. I see so many people walking straight into that trap, bringing along 3 warriors and concluding that nail-biting, hour-long fights are just normal for Nightmare.

But if they had just left their KEs and warriors at home, the fight would be (1) much shorter and (2) a lot easier. Guard and barrier scale poorly with increased difficulty, since they eat a finite amount of damage. Crowd control should be the primary mode of "defense", since it completely negates enemy damage, no matter how much damage they do, and it also prevents enemies from applying status effects. For enemies that can't be CC'd, like dragons, just send in the rogues and shred them before they do damage.

A guard/barrier heavy team certainly can stay alive on Nightmare, but they'll be spending most of their time maintaining their defenses or reviving fallen teammates. Instead of, y'know, ending the fight.

[Anneqo]

I was thinking about making Vivienne a support KE (more of spirit tree, like here: http://www.reddit.co...build_knight/).Cass as 2H and Cole of coure an archer.

I would like to play this party because of roleplay but for that maybe I'll just change to hard or normal difficulty.

So what's the best setup for NM? tank, 2 mages + archer?

[Arvaarad]

I was thinking about making Vivienne a support KE (more of spirit tree, like here: http://www.reddit.co...build_knight/).Cass as 2H and Cole of coure an archer.
I would like to play this party because of roleplay but for that maybe I'll just change to hard or normal difficulty.
So what's the best setup for NM? tank, 2 mages + archer?

IMO, the best party setup for Nightmare is 3 dagger rogues and a rift mage. Solas has plentiful crowd control and rarely runs out of mana, so he can lock down enemies while the dagger rogues gut them. The dagger rogues have enough DPS and evasion (through Stealth, Evade, upgraded Flank Attack, Hook & Tackle, etc) that their squishiness doesn't matter. The enemies are dead before they lift a finger. High dragons die in a matter of seconds with a 3-rogue party, even if the rogues are unoptimized.

Swap out a rogue for Cassandra when it's time to kill some demons, just for her demon-killing utilities.

When it comes to Jaws of Hakkon, make sure you have a good CC mage on the team. Solas might or might not be an option, but Dorian is a decent backup.

I love Viv as a character, but sweet Maker her spec is so oversold. She trades the thing mages are best at (ranged CC) for some added damage (which rogues do better than her), some added defense (which doesn't help the team much, because unlike warriors she has no taunt), and longer-lasting barriers (which scales worse and worse as enemies do more damage, especially in JoH where they have Barrier Breaker).

All that said, don't hesitate to play the party you want to have for roleplay reasons. It'll be harder, but there are ways to modulate the difficulty. Craft good gear early on, using mats from the Forbidden Oasis pre-Skyhold, and Hissing Wastes/Emprise du Lion after. Grab armor from the dog merchant, do the tombs. Bring Cole and Sera when you need to kill dragons. Once you have good gear pre-Skyhold, try to do the quests at the minimum recommended level, so you get the best bang for your t2 buck. Plus, some enemies - looking at you, Envy - are way more difficult when they're scaled to the upper end of the recommended level range. When you get to Hakkon, spec for lots of crowd control to deal with the hammer guys. Good luck!

[Bigdawg13]

Under no situation is it ever ideal to have AI-controlled DW rogues. 

 

Ideal is AI-controlled tank (cassandra), AI-controlled support archer (i.e. Varric), and AI-controlled support mage (Viv is my recommendation).

 

You can play whatever you want with the above.

[Tharkun]

I personally like Dorian but that is because his passives keep him topped off and I don't use regen potions on him.  I also like Haste better than Resurgence.  Healing Mist grenades are my substitute for Resurgence. 

[Anneqo]

Thanks for all replies. But for now I won't be doing nightmare. I tried fighting a little in Hinterlands but... just no. It's not for my nerves. I don't feel satisfaction from winning a fight, I just think about next one and how irritating that will be. I think I'm more a casual player and I'll stick to normal and hard.

But your tips are very useful.

[Arvaarad]

Under no situation is it ever ideal to have AI-controlled DW rogues.

Nothing is ever ideal when AI-controlled, but DW rogues can behave acceptably under AI. They just need to have good CC support from the party mage, and they need to focus fire. For many enemies, 2-3 autoattacking dagger rogues is enough to fake-stunlock them, due to daggers' fast attack speed, and the recoil animation that happens when they get hit. Sure, if one lone AI rogue is stabbing an un-CC'd enemy, they'll get stomped, but 2+ dagger rogues will make the foe powerless to strike back. If you have AoE daggers and use Pull of the Abyss, 3 rogues become an unstoppable spinning pinwheel of death.

Besides, AI rogues are waaaaay better at timing Parry than I can manage.

[Bigdawg13]

That's two strikes.  Never use parry either.  It's a waste considering the 8 slot minimum (and the AI only uses abilities that are slotted).

[Arvaarad]

That's two strikes. Never use parry either. It's a waste considering the 8 slot minimum (and the AI only uses abilities that are slotted).

I don't use Parry personally. Tried it, didn't like it, got better abilities. But I have heard that the AI is pretty good at using it, and people might find it useful to have a damage negation ability that the AI can handle.

I haven't seen AI rogues correctly use Hook & Tackle for damage negation, which is my preferred choice. It has no cooldown, no stamina cost, and also functions as a gap closer, so it's 2 utilities rolled into one slot.

That's one slot too many for speedkills (since they exclude gap closing time). But for normal running-around fights, it makes my life much easier. Plus, it lets me go fennec surfing if there are enough ambient creatures around.

[Cydh]

IMO, the best party setup for Nightmare is 3 dagger rogues and a rift mage. Solas has plentiful crowd control and rarely runs out of mana, so he can lock down enemies while the dagger rogues gut them. The dagger rogues have enough DPS and evasion (through Stealth, Evade, upgraded Flank Attack, Hook & Tackle, etc) that their squishiness doesn't matter. The enemies are dead before they lift a finger. High dragons die in a matter of seconds with a 3-rogue party, even if the rogues are unoptimized.
 

 

That's sound advice - but it's an entirely different game. Instead of finding a way to beat the enemy, you're figuring out a way to deal XXX amount of damage before the enemy gets to do anything. It's a math game, rather than an action/tactic game.

 

By design a team of DW rogues can never be challenged, because you simply can't beat content that's too hard for your team, and content that you can beat, well, never gets to do anything to challenge you at any point.

 

That's not the case of playing more conservatively, more defensively, where the difficulty of the content transcribes exactly into gameplay challenge.

 

I don't know if I make sense.

 

Things such as soloing Gurd. People say Assassins can do it in under a minute, but so far we have only one testimony of a person who did it in an hour with a two-handed Templar. Is it because Assassins can't get to Gurd? Or is it because a solo Assassin can't mathematically kill a boss before the boss gets to guard up, freeze the assassin or summon archers and more mobs? Or is it because a solo Assassin can't mathematically beat one of the fights on the way there on Nightmare? Or was a video done and posted already, and I missed it?

 

In any case I've yet to see a full-on damage oriented approach to the more challenging solo/duo content available, and yet I completely agree with you that 3 rogues and a mage is the best nightmare party, performance-wise.

 

My conclusion to that is also meta-gamey: Nightmare still isn't hard enough to warrant more defensive play with 4 party members. Players like me consciously make it harder because we have more fun when it's more challenging. So I will purposefully pick my teammates for roleplaying reasons over performance, but I also won't hesitate to gimp them or even gimp my own character to make every single minute played more challenging, until I can't gimp myself anymore. Then and only then I will suck it up and accept to buff myself.

 

We won't be satisfied until we have content that makes us ragequit.

 

That's why in my party Vivienne, like all other mages, unequips her staff, has an empty skillbar and is a glorified veilfire torch holder and energize bot. Don't take it the wrong way, I also consider Cole and his rogue friends as walking lockpicks.

[Arvaarad]

Things such as soloing Gurd. People say Assassins can do it in under a minute, but so far we have only one testimony of a person who did it in an hour with a two-handed Templar. Is it because Assassins can't get to Gurd? Or is it because a solo Assassin can't mathematically kill a boss before the boss gets to guard up, freeze the assassin or summon archers and more mobs? Or is it because a solo Assassin can't mathematically beat one of the fights on the way there on Nightmare? Or was a video done and posted already, and I missed it?

 

If a two-handed templar can do it, an assassin definitely can. Two-handed templars don't have much damage avoidance, and they do much less single-target damage than a rogue. Upgraded Stealth is also on a much shorter cooldown than Spell Purge, giving rogues more chances to dispel status effects on themselves.

 

Give the community some time, and I'm sure a solo assassin will emerge. I don't have near the level of reflexes for that kind of speedkill, but I guarantee it's possible. And I would not be surprised if it's under a minute. There's a huge time gap between the length of the first Ravager solo kill, and the current record.

[Duelist]

I don't use Parry personally. Tried it, didn't like it, got better abilities. But I have heard that the AI is pretty good at using it, and people might find it useful to have a damage negation ability that the AI can handle.

I haven't seen AI rogues correctly use Hook & Tackle for damage negation, which is my preferred choice. It has no cooldown, no stamina cost, and also functions as a gap closer, so it's 2 utilities rolled into one slot.

That's one slot too many for speedkills (since they exclude gap closing time). But for normal running-around fights, it makes my life much easier. Plus, it lets me go fennec surfing if there are enough ambient creatures around.

Parry is actually really good in AI control and melee Tempest can be played competently by AI.
The only reason I don't use 3 dagger rogues is because I like Varric there for spamming Long Shot and using him to open fights with Full Draw.

On topic: setting Spirit Blade to preferred and loading up on crit chance and cunning, is the closest I got to making Viv useful.
I was never sold on KE, less so when I found fights taking far longer than necessary.

[Incantrix]

Vivienne  and Dorian is a sass war. 

 

Vivienne, Dorian and Solas is a sass extravaganza...directed towards Solas. 

[Farangbaa]

Vivienne, Dorian and Solas is a sass extravaganza...directed towards Solas.

Considering that's a composition I'll never play... I'ma youtube that stuff right now

I'd pick Dorian and Cassandra btw.