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[Incantrix]

Merrill was betrayed, and Connor was poorly led. And given that the Inquisition was instrumental in helping set up the College to begin with, why wouldn't it continue to help?

 

In any case, I'm certain there won't be ruin, if for no other reason than that we've never had "ruin" stem from any other major choice in DA.

 

Because the alliance with the mages was an alliance of convenience. You needed them to help close the breach and stop Cory. That was it. There was no alliance based on lifelong friendship. The inquisition also did not help them set up the college of enchanters. Leliana gave them a pass and the mages decided to create the college of enchanters. Like I said before, they are completely out of the hands of the inquisition and the chantry. 

 

I also refuse to accept, "Leliana freed the mages, they created the college of enchanters and everyone lived happily ever after. The end." That'd be lazy writing and extremely unrealistic (I've been a staunch BW supporter and even I would call them out on that). You seriously cannot go through everything that happened between all three games and think things are just going to be easy-pz from then on. Can you?

 

Don't get me wrong, I highly support mages. But the college of enchanters is a slippery slope into destruction. The Bright hand college is the only way to give mages both freedom and yet give them structure and protection they need at the same time. 

[Xilizhra]

Because the alliance with the mages was an alliance of convenience. You needed them to help close the breach and stop Cory. That was it. There was no alliance based on lifelong friendship. The inquisition also did not help them set up the college of enchanters. Leliana gave them a pass and the mages decided to create the college of enchanters. Like I said before, they are completely out of the hands of the inquisition and the chantry.

Maybe your Inquisitor did. Mine believed in their cause, and would agree to help them in the future if need be.

 

 

I also refuse to accept, "Leliana freed the mages, they created the college of enchanters and everyone lived happily ever after. The end." That'd be lazy writing and extremely unrealistic (I've been a staunch BW supporter and even I would call them out on that). You seriously cannot go through everything that happened between all three games and think things are just going to be easy-pz from then on. Can you?

I expect Bioware to respect our choices. I don't expect them to ever really touch on the plot again; keep it as vague as need be so long as they don't throw everything down the drain. And if there are future difficulties that need to be resolved, future rough spots, that's fine and dandy. What I'm against is introducing some circumstance that suddenly makes the whole thing a failure; there's a huge middle ground between "failure" and "easy success," and that's what I expect Bioware to occupy.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I highly support mages. But the college of enchanters is a slippery slope into destruction. The Bright hand college is the only way to give mages both freedom and yet give them structure and protection they need at the same time. 

And if my Inquisitor was clairvoyant and knew that the mages would form something better than the Circle with the Inquisition, when that's not the tone of the decision at all, I might have taken that into consideration. But that's not the case. I'm not going to lock all of the mages back up again for Fiona's mistake.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

But that's not the case. I'm not going to lock all of the mages back up again for Fiona's mistake.

 

Actually, Fiona says that most of the mages are happy with the terms of conscription -- herself included. Dorian, to his surprise, indicates the same.

 

I mean, it makes sense, if you think about it. The mages were mostly fine with the Circle before Mr. "AHHH THE CIRCLE IS YOUR DOOOOM!" Anders came by and messed things up for all of them (talk about a self-fulfilling prophecy).

[Xilizhra]

Actually, Fiona says that most of the mages are happy with the terms of conscription -- herself included. Dorian, to his surprise, indicates the same.

 

I mean, it makes sense, if you think about it. The mages were mostly fine with the Circle before Mr. "AHHH THE CIRCLE IS YOUR DOOOOM!" Anders came by and messed things up for all of them (talk about a self-fulfilling prophecy).

Clairvoyance again. Had the choice been phrased as "We request that you join the Inquisition as its magical wing and benefit from its protection and support hitherto, without us actually imprisoning you or acting like the templars did," I might have chosen that. But, alas.

[Catche Jagger]

I disagree. I've never seen anyone attack Cassandra's or Vivienne's endings for being unrealistic, and attacking something in a video game as unrealistic is just a hairsbreadth away from saying it shouldn't have been in the game (or saying that it won't or shouldn't lead to lasting results). The hostility towards Leliana's ending is much stronger and harsher than it is toward any other ending.

First of all, don't misrepresent my argument. I said the endings all get flak, not that they have all been called unrealistic.
Vivienne gets flak for changing almost nothing and centralizing everything around herself.
Cassandra gets flak for not changing enough, which some say will simply lead to the same abuses as before.
Steeled Leliana gets flak for causing violent infighting.
Inspired Leliana gets flak for solving every thing peacefully (and unrealistically)

Secondly, there appears to be more hostility towards Inspired Leliana mostly because the people who support her tend to bring up her ending. A lot. Almost every time I see a mage/templar debate, someone will respond to the statement "The mages can't just be let loose" with "Well Leliana abolished the Circles in my playthrough with no negative repercussions." This brings the ending into the debate where it will inevitably be challenged. The other endings are not thrown around so much in these debates and therefore will not receive so much negative criticism, but they DO still receive negative criticism from several sources.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Clairvoyance again. Had the choice been phrased as "We request that you join the Inquisition as its magical wing and benefit from its protection and support hitherto, without us actually imprisoning you or acting like the templars did," I might have chosen that. But, alas.

 

Hardly. You're the one making the arrangement. You can set the tone for the arrangement in the next cutscene re:Leliana (I think saying that it's for their protection makes it lenient). We also know that most mages were content with the Circle anyway before the Templars became overbearing (courtesy Anders).

 

And LOL @ calling things "Clairvoyance" while using meta-knowledge to know what the Inquisitor will say when making the decision.

 

It may have been a bit harsh in tone, but, can you blame them? Her mess nearly cost everyone the world. You just came back from the future where you saw it, too. Not many people are going to come back from that willing to forgive and forget so readily. Worse, the mages' poor handling of their freedom was very public (short of the Inquisitor being sent through time). The crown brought in the army in response to it. So a little harshness is probably wise. At least, wiser than declaring "Yup, we're with these guys!" after they've just made themselves look inept, self-serving, and untrustworthy to the rest of the world.

[Drasanil]

It may have been a bit harsh in tone, but, can you blame them? Her mess nearly cost everyone the world. You just came back from the future where you saw it, too. Not many people are going to come back from that willing to forgive and forget so readily. Worse, the mages' poor handling of their freedom was very public (short of the Inquisitor being sent through time). The crown brought in the army in response to it. So a little harshness is probably wise. At least, wiser than declaring "Yup, we're with these guys!" after they've just made themselves look inept, self-serving, and untrustworthy to the rest of the world.

 

See, there, that's your problem; you're letting sense get in the way of the SJW hofflenosh. Just drink the cool-aid man and it can all be nugs and rainbows 

[Xilizhra]

Secondly, there appears to be more hostility towards Inspired Leliana mostly because the people who support her tend to bring up her ending. A lot. Almost every time I see a mage/templar debate, someone will respond to the statement "The mages can't just be let loose" with "Well Leliana abolished the Circles in my playthrough with no negative repercussions." This brings the ending into the debate where it will inevitably be challenged. The other endings are not thrown around so much in these debates and therefore will not receive so much negative criticism, but they DO still receive negative criticism from several sources.

Well, naturally. The other endings won't be brought up in discussions about change because they don't change anything. The fact that a new, and important, factor has been added into the mage debate

 

Hardly. You're the one making the arrangement. You can set the tone for the arrangement in the next cutscene re:Leliana (I think saying that it's for their protection makes it lenient). We also know that most mages were content with the Circle anyway before the Templars became overbearing (courtesy Anders).

 

And LOL @ calling things "Clairvoyance" while using meta-knowledge to know what the Inquisitor will say when making the decision.

 

It may have been a bit harsh in tone, but, can you blame them? Her mess nearly cost everyone the world. You just came back from the future where you saw it, too. Not many people are going to come back from that willing to forgive and forget so readily. Worse, the mages' poor handling of their freedom was very public (short of the Inquisitor being sent through time). The crown brought in the army in response to it. So a little harshness is probably wise. At least, wiser than declaring "Yup, we're with these guys!" after they've just made themselves look inept, self-serving, and untrustworthy to the rest of the world.

If there was a middle ground, maybe I'd take it. But that's not the case. Fiona made a bad decision, it's true, but I'm not going to collectively punish the whole group for it. I don't consider it my right.

[SlottsMachine]

The Messiah has spoken.

 

Leliana does not get the HEROISM stamp of approval.

 

Well not everyone can be a Hero of Elysium. 

[SgtSteel91]

It may have been a bit harsh in tone, but, can you blame them? Her mess nearly cost everyone the world. You just came back from the future where you saw it, too. Not many people are going to come back from that willing to forgive and forget so readily. Worse, the mages' poor handling of their freedom was very public (short of the Inquisitor being sent through time). The crown brought in the army in response to it. So a little harshness is probably wise. At least, wiser than declaring "Yup, we're with these guys!" after they've just made themselves look inept, self-serving, and untrustworthy to the rest of the world.

 

I can't find it in myself to blame the Fiona and the Mages for that. To me, that was all Alexius and Corypheus manipulating and compromising Fiona and her people. They are the ones responsible for the trouble at Redcliff and the Dark Future, Fiona and the Mages are victims. And I get to punish those I deem responsible  (Alexius conscripted into the Inquisition and Corypheus destroyed). 

[Lumix19]

I can't find it myself blaming the Mages for that. To me, that was all Alexius and Corypheus manipulating and compromising Fiona and her people. They are the ones responsible for the trouble at Redcliff and the Dark Future, Fiona and the Mages are victims. And I get to punish those I deem responsible  (Alexius conscripted into the Inquisition and Corypheus destroyed).

Neither can I to be honest. She made a mistake, if every person in the world was killed for making a mistake we'd have a lot of dead people (although on the plus side a smaller population).

[Catche Jagger]

Well, naturally. The other endings won't be brought up in discussions about change because they don't change anything. The fact that a new, and important, factor has been added into the mage debate

So, what is your issue with people there being so much dislike for the inspired Leliana ending compared to the other endings? It's only logical that there would be more dislike for it because it is brought up so much.

Also, there is a lot of suspension of disbelief involved in Leliana's ending, especially in comparing it to the other endings.

[Xilizhra]

So, what is your issue with people there being so much dislike for the inspired Leliana ending compared to the other endings? It's only logical that there would be more dislike for it because it is brought up so much.

Also, there is a lot of suspension of disbelief involved in Leliana's ending, especially in comparing it to the other endings.

Because it's tantamount to saying "you shouldn't have gotten to play the game the way you wanted to," by either implying or stating that it shouldn't have been in the game.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

I think the hatred is because divine leliana's ending pretty much destroys the pro-Templar argument. The Templar argument is based on three beliefs:

1. Mages will conquer non mages if given freedom
2. Mages will lose control and cause widespread abominations and blood magic if given freedom
3. Non mages will lynch mages without circles to protect them

Given that divine leliana has a college to teach mages and mages become accepted by people, he pro-Templar argument starts to fall apart.

[Catche Jagger]

Because it's tantamount to saying "you shouldn't have gotten to play the game the way you wanted to," by either implying or stating that it shouldn't have been in the game.

Well, my intention is not to prevent you from playing the way you want. However, I do have criticisms of both the ending and some of the arguments presented here and I see no real issue with stating my criticisms.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

Next thing you know it will turn out that Leliana is a direct descendent of Andraste

[TK514]

I can't find it in myself to blame the Fiona and the Mages for that. To me, that was all Alexius and Corypheus manipulating and compromising Fiona and her people. They are the ones responsible for the trouble at Redcliff and the Dark Future, Fiona and the Mages are victims. And I get to punish those I deem responsible  (Alexius conscripted into the Inquisition and Corypheus destroyed). 

 

Regardless of blaming her for selling her people into slavery, I don't see how you can't blame her for the mage half of the mess in the Hinterlands.  She claimed a position of leadership over mages, she forced them into a war they had no chance of winning, and then she did nothing to curb the excesses of her constituents, nor did she manage even the most basic level of care over the population of Tranquil who depended entirely on her mages for their survival. 

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

Regardless of blaming her for selling her people into slavery, I don't see how you can't blame her for the mage half of the mess in the Hinterlands. She claimed a position of leadership over mages, she forced them into a war they had no chance of winning, and then she did nothing to curb the excesses of her constituents, nor did she manage even the most basic level of care over the population of Tranquil who depended entirely on her mages for their survival.

And he Templars did nothing to those who killed anyone in the hinterlands or how corrupt the leadership was. The Templars arsn't any better.
Also, I don't see how blaming Fiona justifies abandoning innocent mages and children to what is essentially slavery just because Fiona messed up

[Xilizhra]

Well, my intention is not to prevent you from playing the way you want. However, I do have criticisms of both the ending and some of the arguments presented here and I see no real issue with stating my criticisms.

What, ultimately, is the point of criticizing endings you don't play?

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

What, ultimately, is the point of criticizing endings you don't play?

thats the million dollar question

[The Hierophant]

I think the hatred is because divine leliana's ending pretty much destroys the pro-Templar argument. The Templar argument is based on three beliefs:

1. Mages will conquer no mages if given freedom
2. Mages will lose control and cause widespread abominations and blood magic if given freedom
3. Non mages will lunch mages without circles to protect them

Given that divine leliana has a college to teach mages and mages become accepted by people, he pro-Templar argument starts to fall apart.

After DAO's boons i think you should hold off on gloating until the release of the next Dragon Age title. Who knows what type drama the writers will create or that any of the Justinia's reigns would go as planned.

[TK514]

And he Templars did nothing to those who killed anyone in the hinterlands or how corrupt the leadership was. The Templars arsn't any better.

 

At what point did I say they were?  Were we discussing the Templars?  Did the post I was responding to have anything to do with the Templars? 

 

No?  Then why would you bring them into a discussion that has nothing to do with them?

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

At what point did I say they were? Were we discussing the Templars? Did the post I was responding to have anything to do with the Templars?

No? Then why would you bring them into a discussion that has nothing to do with them?

Both sides are bad. If one side gets criticized, the other deserves to be criticized as well

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

After DAO's boons i think you should hold off on gloating until the release of the next Dragon Age title. Who knows what type drama the writers will create or that any of the Justinia's reigns would go as planned.

Wat gloating?im merely offering a hypothesis

[Steelcan]

There's a difference between criticizing an ending on the basis of its content, and saying its invalid.