169 réponses à ce sujet

[The Hierophant]

Oops sorry for taking the bait.

[Dark Helmet]

Because it's tantamount to saying "you shouldn't have gotten to play the game the way you wanted to," by either implying or stating that it shouldn't have been in the game.

 

Because you've never done that about other issues.

 

*cough elves* *Cough cough Templars* *COUGH COUGH COUGH Weekes and TME*

[TK514]

Both sides are bad. If one side gets criticized, the other deserves to be criticized as well

 

That would matter if the Templars were part of the discussion at all.  They aren't.  Fiona isn't a Templar.  She has nothing to do with the Templars.  She has no control over the Templars.  So why would you bring up responsibility for the Templars in a discussion about holding Fiona responsible for her faction?

 

If you can't address the thread with relevant input, we'd all be better off if you didn't address it at all.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

That would matter if the Templars were part of the discussion at all. They aren't. Fiona isn't a Templar. She has nothing to do with the Templars. She has no control over the Templars. So why would you bring up responsibility for the Templars in a discussion about holding Fiona responsible for her faction?

If you can't address the thread with relevant input, we'd all be better off if you didn't address it at all.

Fiona made her desperate actions due to fear of Templars. In fact, her first option was to go to the Inquisition. This entire war happened because the Templars were too zealous. They have just as much blame as Fiona.

In fact, the Inquisitor can call out the Templars for their abuses in the dlc

[Steelcan]

Fiona made her desperate actions due to fear of Templars. In fact, her first option was to go to the Inquisition. This entire war happened because the Templars were too zealous. They have just as much blame as Fiona.

In fact, the Inquisitor can call out the Templars for their abuses in the dlc

Fiona made her first actions to provoke the templars into zealous fury, then it turned out she couldn't win against them, then she ran crying to the nearest sympathetic institution

[TheKomandorShepard]

Because it's tantamount to saying "you shouldn't have gotten to play the game the way you wanted to," by either implying or stating that it shouldn't have been in the game.

You don't know what you are talking about roleplaying way you want don't equal bending universe and setting to your will just because i play as nice guy game shouldn't be rainbow , power of love and friendship if i play nice guy i expect consequences of that not universe bending to me being nice guy.

 

 

I think the hatred is because divine leliana's ending pretty much destroys the pro-Templar argument. The Templar argument is based on three beliefs:

1. Mages will conquer non mages if given freedom
2. Mages will lose control and cause widespread abominations and blood magic if given freedom
3. Non mages will lynch mages without circles to protect them

Given that divine leliana has a college to teach mages and mages become accepted by people, he pro-Templar argument starts to fall apart.

Not rly it is just horrible writing caused by that she is writers pet pretty much same as dragon age inquisition completely ignores topic of abomnations as well blood magic among rebel mages (save for grey wardens).

[Catche Jagger]

What, ultimately, is the point of criticizing endings you don't play?

There are a lot of benefits to debating one's opinion. It allows you to hear opposing arguments and perspectives, which grant a fuller picture of the larger issue. Opening up your opinions up to the criticism of others allows you to assess their overall value. Understanding the position of those who believe differently allows one to better direct their arguments in the future. Etc.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

If there was a middle ground, maybe I'd take it. But that's not the case. Fiona made a bad decision, it's true, but I'm not going to collectively punish the whole group for it. I don't consider it my right.

 

My point was, it is not a punishment.

 

I can't find it in myself to blame the Fiona and the Mages for that. To me, that was all Alexius and Corypheus manipulating and compromising Fiona and her people. They are the ones responsible for the trouble at Redcliff and the Dark Future, Fiona and the Mages are victims. And I get to punish those I deem responsible  (Alexius conscripted into the Inquisition and Corypheus destroyed). 

 

How is Fiona not to blame for a decision she made in full knowledge??

 

Alexius may have screwed with time a bit to affect her, sure, but the principle of her choice remains bad.

 

if every person in the world was killed for making a mistake we'd have a lot of dead people (although on the plus side a smaller population).

 

There is a world of difference in scale between mistakes like ["Oops, I told my friend I'd pick him up from the airport while I am busy at work"] and ["Oops, I just helped another country occupy the land that granted me refuge"] (among other things she did wrong).

 

For the record, I would not kill Fiona.

[SgtSteel91]

How is Fiona not to blame for a decision she made in full knowledge??

 

Alexius may have screwed with time a bit to affect her, sure, but the principle of her choice remains bad.

 

In my opinion, with the resources at Alexius' disposal (including a reset button in the form of Time Magic), Fiona would never have had any choice but to submit to Alexius. One way or another, she and her people were going to come under Corypheus' control without the Inquisition putting the kibosh on the whole thing.

 

Furthermore, I can't fault her for trying to save her people in the situation she was placed in. That Alexius was secretly never interested in helping her people and evicted the Arl is beside the point.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

In my opinion, with the resources at Alexius' disposal (including a reset button in the form of Time Magic), Fiona would never have had any choice but to submit to Alexius. One way or another, she and her people were going to come under Corypheus' control without the Inquisition putting the kibosh on the whole thing.

 

Corypheus was not on anyone's mind until it was too late. It is what it is IMO.
 

Furthermore, I can't fault her for trying to save her people in the situation she was placed in.

 

Which brings us back to the hypocrisy of her decision. If they did not want to die, they should have thought of that before breaking away from the Circle. If being free mattered more than their lives, they should not have even entertained the offer from Alexius.

 

If they thought Templars were bad, they are in for a rude surprise in Tevinter, even if the magisters really do make good on their promise to grant them citizenship. Only few mages actually do well there, and refugees from the south most certainly face great discrimination. In the end, they will have given up many things the Circle gave them for free and have less to show for it up north.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Corypheus was not on anyone's mind until it was too late. It is what it is IMO.
 

 

Which brings us back to the hypocrisy of her decision. If they did not want to die, they should have thought of that before breaking away from the Circle. If being free mattered more than their lives, they should not have even entertained the offer from Alexius.

 

If they thought Templars were bad, they are in for a rude surprise in Tevinter, even if the magisters really do make good on their promise to grant them citizenship. Only few mages actually do well there, and refugees from the south most certainly face great discrimination. In the end, they will have given up many things the Circle gave them for free and have less to show for it up north.

In case you forgot, the Templars tried to kill the mages after their attempted vote. There would have been no rebellion even after the harsh restrictions the templars started to impose if Lambert wasn't genocidal mage-hater. The fact that even after everything went to hell, the symbolic vote was still 50/50 pretty much confirms that the mages wouldn't have rebelled if the templars didn't do their abuse.

[SgtSteel91]

By Inquisition the War is less about freedom and more about survival. Either you die by the Templar's sword or die a slow death in the Circle.

[Akkos]

In case you forgot, the Templars tried to kill the mages after their attempted vote. There would have been no rebellion even after the harsh restrictions the templars started to impose if Lambert wasn't genocidal mage-hater. The fact that even after everything went to hell, the symbolic vote was still 50/50 pretty much confirms that the mages wouldn't have rebelled if the templars didn't do their abuse.

 

But that's because the templars figure the Chantry "Divine Justinia" support this kind of action performed by these radical mages leaving the Templars in a position where they have no say in the situation.  They have been risking their lives for years only to see the chantry they protect turn these idiot mages against them the templars.

[Steelcan]

In case you forgot, the Templars tried to kill the mages after their attempted vote. There would have been no rebellion even after the harsh restrictions the templars started to impose if Lambert wasn't genocidal mage-hater. The fact that even after everything went to hell, the symbolic vote was still 50/50 pretty much confirms that the mages wouldn't have rebelled if the templars didn't do their abuse.

their motion certainly wouldn't have carried  (as it hadn't in the past several times) if Fiona hadn't provoked the templars into an attack.

 

Kicking a bear in the nuts while trapped in its cave, then demanding everyone listen to you to escape isn't a terribly bright idea.

[thesuperdarkone2]

But that's because the templars figure the Chantry "Divine Justinia" support this kind of action performed by these radical mages leaving the Templars in a position where they have no say in the situation.  They have been risking their lives for years only to see the chantry they protect turn these idiot mages against them the templars.

The end of asunder kind of proves that the vote for independence never would have passed if it had gone normally. Lambert was pretty much Meredith 2.0 and he illegally usurped power from the Orlesian Knight-Commander and started this whole mess. Funny how it's the templars that start the events that create the rebellion.

[Urazz]

In case you forgot, the Templars tried to kill the mages after their attempted vote. There would have been no rebellion even after the harsh restrictions the templars started to impose if Lambert wasn't genocidal mage-hater. The fact that even after everything went to hell, the symbolic vote was still 50/50 pretty much confirms that the mages wouldn't have rebelled if the templars didn't do their abuse.

Pretty much this.  The vote would've never succeeded if Lambert hadn't been an genocidal mage-hating idiot and cracked down on the mages voting.  Even after that happened the vote was still close to 50/50 with Rhys being the deciding vote on the matter.  You can pretty much summarize the whole start of the war as a result of extremists like Lambert, Meredith, Anders, Adrian (radical mage in Dragon Age: Asunder book), etc.

 

By Inquisition the War is less about freedom and more about survival. Either you die by the Templar's sword or die a slow death in the Circle.

Pretty much this.  I also think that's why the mages are willing to accept conscription in DA:I because at that point it was more about saving lives (which Fiona was horrible at).  Even the Templars were starting to lose the respect and good reputation they had in general as a result of the war and that's why they were also willing to accept disbanding of the templar order and join the Inquisition.  The only thing I dislike on choosing mages in DA: I is because you can't replace Fiona or have her punished for her idiocy.

 

 

But that's because the templars figure the Chantry "Divine Justinia" support this kind of action performed by these radical mages leaving the Templars in a position where they have no say in the situation.  They have been risking their lives for years only to see the chantry they protect turn these idiot mages against them the templars.

Actually, it was their own actions that was turning the idiot mages against them.  Lambert was pretty much of the opinion that if you weren't siding with him, you were against him.  Divine Justinia was more supportive of mage rights but that was because she was seeing what templar abuses of power were doing.  She wasn't advocating the mages disbanding the Circles.

 

their motion certainly wouldn't have carried  (as it hadn't in the past several times) if Fiona hadn't provoked the templars into an attack.

 

Kicking a bear in the nuts while trapped in its cave, then demanding everyone listen to you to escape isn't a terribly bright idea.

I can agree with that.  Fiona is an idiot but she was pretty much a pawn of the extremist mages like Adrian.  Not only that but part of the reason why the rebel mages are in such dire straights in DA:I is that they are not unified.  The Loyalist mages don't side with the rebel mages and are led by Vivienne .  Even the Templars suffer from a loss of numbers but to a lesser extent (with some templars siding with the Inquisition).

[TK514]

Fiona made her desperate actions due to fear of Templars. In fact, her first option was to go to the Inquisition. This entire war happened because the Templars were too zealous. They have just as much blame as Fiona.

In fact, the Inquisitor can call out the Templars for their abuses in the dlc

 

All of which STILL has nothing to do with Fiona being held responsible for her failure in leading the mages or showing that they are a trustworthy faction capable of policing and controlling themselves.  Fiona's failures have nothing to do with the Templars. 

 

You can't stand that someone might be discussing the flaws of the Mage faction without blaming the Templars for it, so you, ever the hypocrite, toss out some trolling crap to derail the conversation.

[Ynqve]

All of which STILL has nothing to do with Fiona being held responsible for her failure in leading the mages or showing that they are a trustworthy faction capable of policing and controlling themselves.  Fiona's failures have nothing to do with the Templars. 

 

You can't stand that someone might be discussing the flaws of the Mage faction without blaming the Templars for it, so you, ever the hypocrite, toss out some trolling crap to derail the conversation.

 

This. 

 

Fiona is an idiot and the mages are better off without her. The Templars are responsible for a lot of things, but that doesn't make Fiona any less of a moron. I'm as pro-mage as you can get without sounding like a death eater and even I can see that. 

[Akkos]

Actually, it was their own actions that was turning the idiot mages against them.  Lambert was pretty much of the opinion that if you weren't siding with him, you were against him.  Divine Justinia was more supportive of mage rights but that was because she was seeing what templar abuses of power were doing.  She wasn't advocating the mages disbanding the Circles.

 

 

All I can say is  the Templars were still victims of what the Chantry came to be. The Chantry did not check or supervise the templars that "abused" their power under their command. Mages like Adrien were the ones who provoke the templars and were also the ones who forced the whole mage rebellion, just like the templars had thugs and convicts.. not only Lambert.  Anyway, I have no more say in this.

[myahele]

How can I possible hate someone who makes a nug into a holy animal

[Sports72Xtrm]

This. 

 

Fiona is an idiot and the mages are better off without her. The Templars are responsible for a lot of things, but that doesn't make Fiona any less of a moron. I'm as pro-mage as you can get without sounding like a death eater and even I can see that. 

Can I posit that people blame individuals for chaos when variables such as the social, cultural, ecnomic factors connect and contribute to the chaos. You can execute as many Fiona's as you like, but as long as the Circle is a prison, people like Lysas, just an elf as he says "“It's not right. I studied hard, I passed my Harrowing, I sing the Chant. But I'll be locked up for the rest of my life.” will turn into an Anders out of resentment. 

 

Templars fear mages but they willingly follow an envy demon because they resent people questioning their authority, especially when they see it as righteous. Their authority stems from their duty of being emotionally distant from their charges and to kill, imprison, or tanquilize when they deem mages "unreasonable". This leads to resentment on all sides and results in the templars to grandstand, abuse their power, and forsake their vows.

 

Maybe that is the issue, that it's all connected. the Circle enables abuse, fear, jealousy and envy.

 

Ameridan was chosen because he united these disparate groups but in my opinion, The Circles are making everyone divisive. It also has more vulnerabilies than before, considering that now Seekers have to watch templars for not being poisoned by red lyrium, as well as weird cults like the Promisers, and mage extremists like the resolutionists or venatori attacking the Inquisition and chantry through terrorist and propaganda means.

[TK514]

How can I possible hate someone who makes a nug into a holy animal

 

Divine Schmooples.

[Dark Helmet]

Divine Schmooples.

 

I'd accept Divine Schmooples over Leliana tho...

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

How can I possible hate someone who makes a nug into a holy animal

Yes, because a Nug was never an ample supply of food for the Dwarves at all, and Orzammar can always rely on trade with the surface. It's a good thing that Divine Leliana can cuddle her pet nug all the time while the dwarves in Orzammar starved to death. What's next? she declares an Exalted Marches against Orzammar simply because the Dwarves ate nug. 

[Xilizhra]

Yes, because a Nug was never an ample supply of food for the Dwarves at all, and Orzammar can always rely on trade with the surface. It's a good thing that Divine Leliana can cuddle her pet nug all the time while the dwarves in Orzammar starved to death. What's next? she declares an Exalted Marches against Orzammar simply because the Dwarves ate nug. 

That nug was bought and paid for, fair and square. What beef have you with her for that?